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Explorer kit owners beware!

T
Nov 3, 2008
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X2468 Ya i know about those series and we have several more including the largest desert race in the nortwest 3 to 5 thousand riders in a one day event.

But the exposuer from Tv and it being more noted ;the GNCC is stuck on the east coast.
So is it Boca or Vermont (you a snow bird) up for the sumer and back for the winter?
 
D
Dec 8, 2008
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Livonia,Mi
So, has this problem been solved?

I did notice that my forks are using more of the stroke than normal with this kit. I had to take it easy in the whoops. I used almost twice as much of the stroke.:eek:

"As for the set up DefBoy, the bike is set up for my summer riding with my weight, riding style etc. I had to put on a heavier rear spring after getting the bike but the fork springs were OK (per the Race Tech website). Either way, unless I get a bunch of ice built up all over the bike I'm not changing the sprung weight (the bike came right out of the garage at the time of the second failure)."
I beg to differ. If you land ski first and not with the track and ski simultaneously you will have the added weight of the kit. The track assembly is unsprung weight if it does not touch the ground at the same time.

"The ski's weight may be different than the wheel but that change shouldn't affect how easily the front end bottoms."
I don't agree totally. The friction from the ski, since it does not roll, would also cause more bottoming effect. Imagine landing while dragging the front brake and the effect on the fork.

Lets not forget that the ski was in the extended position. This creates more leverage to bend up the caliper mounts. Keeping the ski in closest to the axle would be a good idea when jumping at all. Tilting the track up in front and down in the rear, with the six adjustment bolts, should get enough track angle for deep snow.

This block looks like a great idea, but why not two inches wide at the base. Those fork tube parts are expensive. If this block works I'd defintely want one.

IMG_4235.jpg
 
N
Dec 15, 2008
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i'm still waiting for my new, updated front cones from Adboivin. i'm going to put some more oil in my forkes so they i don't run the risk of them bottoming out.
 
T
Nov 3, 2008
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After seeing the two kits side by side i can see the point that flex's those cones.:(

I am surprised the thin plate that connects to the ski and the fork is not rigid enough fo side diflection and thus putting huge stress on the caliper bracket.:eek:

Lots of one ski's at Snow Hawk Fest in Montana and even a 2moto, I still cant believe that they go where the do; and hold there own every where both kits have there pro's and cons: But WOW they get with the program in the snow.:)
 
T
Oct 15, 2008
65
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So, has this problem been solved?



I beg to differ. If you land ski first and not with the track and ski simultaneously you will have the added weight of the kit. The track assembly is unsprung weight if it does not touch the ground at the same time.

I don't agree totally. The friction from the ski, since it does not roll, would also cause more bottoming effect. Imagine landing while dragging the front brake and the effect on the fork.

Lets not forget that the ski was in the extended position. This creates more leverage to bend up the caliper mounts. Keeping the ski in closest to the axle would be a good idea when jumping at all. Tilting the track up in front and down in the rear, with the six adjustment bolts, should get enough track angle for deep snow.

This block looks like a great idea, but why not two inches wide at the base. Those fork tube parts are expensive. If this block works I'd defintely want one.

Good point about landing on the ski first...

The ski isn't going to give much friction...some but nothing substantial.

The first time my front end broke the ski was in the extended position, but I was also bombing down a power line in deep powder. It broke when I went over a good size snow bank and got to the bottom. I'm sure having it extended didn't help. The second time it was only half way extended. I agree with you though, that is a lot of leverage! Snow hawks don't have nearly that much leverage at the forks.

The plate doesn't need to be really wide as the forces are acting for the most part along the length of it. There are some side forces at the top caliper mount, but the bottom is going to have to give first before the top sees any deflection. In that aspect it's about a 5 inch wide base.

TheDefBoy: The cones don't really "flex" per say. The bolts will stretch allowing the cone to pull away ever so slightly from the main plate and then there is a really high stress concentration on the edge of th cone that causes it to yield. The center plate is strong enough, the cones just weren't wide enough to provided the rigidity needed for the application. The combination of the bolts bending and the edge of the cone crushing is what causes the failures.

I guess the new ones are wider but I'm STILL waiting for Mike to get me the info on them. If any of you guys have them please post a couple pictures of the new ones beside the old ones!

As for the block I have, that was made by a local machine shop per a design I gave them. It's not from AD Boivin.
 
T
Oct 15, 2008
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Mike worked with me to get a solid plate machined to replace the cones, so kudos to Mike!

I'm eating my own words here. You can see the details here but long story short, Mike offered to pay for the block I had machined, a total of $105. It's been over three months now and even with numerous email and phone reminders, I STILL have not gotten any sort of reimbursement. I guess Mike Comisac is not quite the great guy many people think he is!
 
S
Nov 26, 2007
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Kennewick Wa
X2

icon3.gif
At least you were persistant.
You squeeked and squeeked till you got the grease you wanted, I'll give you credit for that!

The flaw you and a few other AD Boivin Explorer customers created needs to be addressed, a much stronger two leg ski mount should be created, tested, and putt into production. Current customers and dealers should recieve it asap.:confused:

2Moto has replaced a few of their failures with updated units.:beer;

The root problem I am afraid though, customer service, prostitute mentallaty, and just plain arrogance remains AD Boivin! This can never be fixed by the distributor, dealer, or the customer.:)
 
B
Nov 28, 2007
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They dont care . Their gov't pays them to stay in business. One of their jokers told someone that its not their fault that their prices are so high, its our dwindling dollar and we should blame our president, " Bush " Arrogant French F****rs. If it wasn't for us , They would still be in concentration camps. The Hawk is a very well built machine. I have to give them credit for that. They dont have good communication skills and that is why they abandoned ship and playing with a newer deck. They'll be changing that one soon as well .
 
A
Mar 4, 2008
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I sure does feel good spreading the word so that more people don't fall into the trap. Good grief government funded?! Can you imagine what the profit is without even the funding? What a joke. Why did I have to go out on a limb and buy this homo kit anyways? Now I'm the one that looks like a homo. :mad:

You have 3 posts and all are negative. I have owned a Explorer for a year on a KTM 530 and have never had 1 problem. I have jumped it and thrashed it, up and down hills and through the woods. Again never any problems. What problems are you having anyways? Your not one of those guys that when his fingernail breaks he goes crying to Momma, are you. :D
 
Mike, your a good guy and i like you, but you have gone a little over the top here with the "we would still be in concentration camps if it wasent for the USA! come on man! think before you type, this offended me. dont judge everone over a few bad apples
 
T
Oct 15, 2008
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You have 3 posts and all are negative. I have owned a Explorer for a year on a KTM 530 and have never had 1 problem. I have jumped it and thrashed it, up and down hills and through the woods. Again never any problems. What problems are you having anyways? Your not one of those guys that when his fingernail breaks he goes crying to Momma, are you. :D

I think it depends greatly on the bike that the kit is being put on. Depending on the configuration of the bike, the kit can be designed very well or very poorly. The design for my Yamaha was very poor. I saw the design for an Aprilla, and I don't think the front end on that one would have any problems. I personally broke two sets of forks. I sold my kit and lost my a$$ on it, but I didn't want to mess with it anymore. If I go with a snowbike again, I'll get a 2moto. I would be tempted to get a snow hawk, but after the abysmal customer service I encountered by AD Boivin trying to get my bike going again after each catastrophic failure I won't be giving them any more of my money. They have since upgraded their front end design for the explorer kit (after I proved they needed to and sent all you guys to their front door demanding a fix) so the future kits might not be so problematic. However, from and engineer's standpoint, I still don't like the kit for the following reasons:

The chain does not align with the counter shaft sprocket. I think mine was about 7mm off. They say it will work fine, but it accelerates chain and sprocket wear, and loads the counter shaft axially which is a load it is not designed for.

The rear suspension sucks
. If you have the kit in the middle position, you get about a whopping three inches of travel before the links going up to the foot pegs smash into the top of the track housing. I made brackets for my kit to eliminate this and get some more travel, but it was still VERY limited. It would bottom out over whoops in the snowmobile trail. To be fair, I recently found out I lost all the nitrogen from my shock so that may have had something to do with it bottoming so easily last winter. That still doesn't change the travel though.

The brake design is absolutely terrible. If you look at the brake caliper on any dirt bike, you will notice that the pads but up against caliper mount, and transfer the braking force through the mount to the swing arm. This allows the caliper to freely float back and forth to compensate for the pads opening/closing and for any warping or misalignment of the rotor. AD Bovin's design, because it spins backwards, puts all the breaking force trough the pad retaining pin into the caliper, which then is transmitted trough the caliper guide pins and then into the caliper mount. The retaining pin was never designed to take the full braking load of the bike. They are designed to be able to hold the bike from rolling back down a hill, or stopping it when it is rolling back down a hill, but you never generate the braking force in reverse on a dirt bike that you do going forward. Also, in with a dirt bike most of the braking is done by the front brake (hence a larger rotor, often dual piston calipers etc). Now with the explorer kit, the rear brake is handling ALL the braking force of the bike, and in reverse of the direction the direction that the brake is supposed to work. New pins would probably work fine for a while, but they are going to wear a lot faster than they would in the dirt with wheels. As that pin wears and gets thinner (I noticed definite wear on my pin after only running the kit about 10 times) it's going to get weaker. If the operator isn't big on preventative maintenance, then one day that pin is going to fail and someone's riding home with no brakes. Having load applied to the caliper guide pins is also bad as this will wear them out too. The bores (on my caliper anyway) that the guide pins go into are just aluminum, not steel, so they are going to wear if they are greased or not. Grease will slow it down, but not stop the process.

I don't trust studs in the track. The track is supposed to be able be studded with the screw-in type studs. Pretty much every review on those types of studs is that they eventually rip the hell out of the track. I tried to ask AD Boivin if regular studs could be used and the best I can understand the indirect answer that I got was no, regular studs can't be used in the track. I found last winter that on the snowmobile trails I need studs. Kold Kutters in the lugs aren't going to cut it either. The track needs some penetration to get down in the base of the trail or to grab in ice. I ate it hard once because I was power sliding around a corner at about 30 mph and the track broke loose, then grabbed and flipped the bike around before I came to a stop with the end of the bars stuffed in my stomach (dang that hurt!). I've had a few other times cornering where the track was unpredictable because when the bike leans over far enough the side rail for the track digs into the snow. Also, ice screws like Kold Kutters don't like road crossings, so carbide is needed. The track lugs aren't that rigid, so accelerating or braking are going to be bending the lugs over. This does two bad things. First, if the lug is bending over, the stud isn't sticking down into the snow/ice, it's just dragging along it. Second, when the lug flexes, the stud is going to start ripping out of the lug. Usually the tip of the stud will start tearing the rubber internally until it rip out to the surface. It may take a while, but eventually the stud will come out, or you'll loose a chunk of lug, or both. Regular studs I think would be the way to go, but they would have to be put in the edges of the track where the clearance slots are in the nose of the track. I don't know the internal construction of the track to know if it would hold up, but AD Boivin said not to do it. Regular studs would also add a lot of weight on an already taxing system. My 400 had a hard enough time running the kit at it was.

There were also a couple other small things I found when assembling the kit that were signs of low quality. One example being that one of the aluminum plates on the side of the wear block that is between the chain running over the main sprocket and the chain running back up to the engine. There is a chamfered hole where a flat head cap screw goes through, and the chamfer was on the wrong side of the plate. Also, I'm not supposed to have to modify my bike, but I had to cut one of the tabs off that holds my chain guard to even be able to get the kit installed.

All said and told, I learn a lot and lost a lot of money in the process. I'm done with explorer kits, and because of the piss poor customer service I got from my distributor (Mike Comisac) and AD Boivin I'm also done with the company. When I buy another snow machine, I'll be taking my money somewhere else.

Hopefully the crap I've gone though will do one of three things:

a) Make AD Boivin design a quality product that will last AND SUPPORT IT
b) Educate people to decide if they want to avoid the potential problems of buying an explorer kit
c) a and b

P.S. If there are bad typos, sorry, I ran out of time to proof read this whole thing.
 
A
Mar 4, 2008
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I think you have some valid points. I also think the kit worked pretty good for its first year out. To be able to ride my Moto bike in the snow at all is amazing to me, Plus every time I go out I still have fun with it. I hope 2 Moto and AD Bovine can stay in Business in this crappy economy. If I have to go back to riding 2 ski's again I will move south for the winter. Remember how rumors start. You say that you wrecked your fork, and the next guy will take that as your in a coma. Negativity will only hurt this movement. Granted I want a great product that can promise the moon with all the support I can handle. But reality is these are small Co's that are probally barely making it. I just hope they do make it, and in a couple of years, all this will be sorted out and we will all be laughing about the old times.:beer;
 
J
I would like to think I'm just being whiney, but come on. Nobody wants to ride with me now because I always break before we even get up to where the good riding starts. From now on, if I try this again, I will take my own vehical out instead of carpooling. That way, they can escort me and my broken explorer back down like usual to make sure I get out, then I can go home and they can keep playing. I've had a good look at the trouble areas and I'm sure I can do some fabbing and improve some of the weaker points and try to salvage this thing. It is fun for sure, just disappointing.

I also agree with what tallboyswrf says about the engineering flaws with the kit, and also how it's not really specific enough for all bikes. When I saw the videos on this kit and how it is explained, they do indeed say it just bolts on with no modification to your bike. After you get the kit and the instructions, and it tells you to cut off factory mount off your swingarm, it seems like there's some deception there. Luckily in my case, even though the instructions say that for my model I would also have to cut this off, when I put the kit on, it was obvious that there's no conflict in my case. (glad I checked before believing the directions). Notice the amount of rake on the yamaha compared to the hondas... much more straight up and down for yamaha - I think this makes some bikes more susceptable to fork failures than others.

The 3" rear suspension travel is also pretty silly. Snowmobile trails tend to have alot of woopty-doop bumps, and so the track hammering up and down until things break and/or that plastic at cover at the front bends down wedging the track between your belly pan and the front bogie wheel, causing the bike to stall, or at least rattling your feet off the pegs. If the kit had a bumper or something here to limit the travel even more while providing coushin, it might take some stress off some of the other parts and help to correct this problem. Not sure if it's just my model of bike - anyone else with an explorer notice that when the suspension bottoms out, the bike comes down and hits that plastic cover which bends into conflict with the track? After 1 stretch of bumpy stuff just putting in 1st and 2nd, it's grinding and flapping away making a racket and vibrating you to death even with no bumps. Then you get a heat gun and warp it back into shape off the track. For the ski hardware. The 2 plates that adjust into the bigger one I will add gussets or double them up some how as they are the weakest link as far as damage to the front part of the kit. If you adjust your ski front end high, those plates can easily be twisted causing the ski to jerk and twist violently to one side, in turn causing further damage. I think this can be corrected though. Once I'm done with modification, I'm pretty sure I can ride with some confidence.

I'm glad we have the power of forums. Hopefully if everyone keeps talking about their problems, we can get together and find solutions.
 
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