BDX oil delete, Caused 09 M1000 crank seize in 950miles running 40:1

bgreen776 · Jan 26, 2010

lynxer292b said:
This is just one of many that have done this. BDX makes BS stuff and it shows. Yeah some guys have gotten by half lucky. They probably bring the grandmas on trail rides too. The pictures above prove that the only way you can delete the oil injection safely is to regularily grease the shaft. The argument is that the grease can seap to the other bearings. Which is partially true. Seriously guys what do you gain by doing the delete?! not much. It is safer to just leave it and tell BDX to go fly a friggen kite

Thats garbage. Come on, lets get this discussion back on track with helpful information and experience. The pictures above prove nothing, they support a theory, but prove nothing.

People have been deleting their oil injection pumps and/or using mixed oil to lube their bearings since, probably, the very first two stroke snowmobile engines. There are plenty of people with high hp sleds that are running the BDX oil delete kit with no additional lubrication, that have had zero problems. One fellow here locally has over 3000 miles on his sled, 2500+ of which was with a race gas turbo and a bdx oil delete kit.

In my opinion, if you want to be safe, mimic the factory race engines by milling or grinding a port in the lower case and drill a hole to direct some lube onto the brass crank gear. Anybody that has ever drilled a hole with a pistol drill and ground some metal with a die grinder should be able to do this mod, and there are plenty of pictures in the other thread and elsewhere on the internet.

What do you gain? You loose a couple pounds and you gain consistency and reliability. Both valuable in my book.

bgreen776 · Jan 26, 2010

backcountryislife said:
IF the center is not sealed, then we don't have a problem at all, the premix will get in there one way or another.

The center is not completely sealed. If it was, that cavity would pump completely full of oil and you'd probably blow the oil seal and waterpump seal out. A labyrinth seal is not a positive seal, especially the little tiny ones we have in our crankshafts. Your statement thats quoted in this post is proven by the fact that many people have run the bdx kit for thousands of miles, installed as bdx recommends, and have had zero failures, is it not?

krom · Jan 26, 2010

The cat 600 race engines have 2 passages drilled in the crankcase to direct lube to the gears and bushings, the race sleds where siezing pump shafts untill they did this. IMHO its foolish to hope that adding more oil to the pre-mix, or to think that the engine will run fine without any lube directed to this area...

bgreen776 · Jan 26, 2010

One on each side like what's pictured in the THCR picasa album I linked to?

AaronBND · Jan 26, 2010

I think the mod you did is the proper way to do it bgreen. Unfortunately, not everyone tears their engine down like you did to do the mod the correct way. The question is....what can the regular Joe Blow do to protect himself when he wants this mod?

Is that center section a positive vacuum I assume? If that's the case, a guy should be able to get a 6mm 90* barb fitting and screw it in the bottom of the case and have a little bottle full of oil somewhere for it to draw out of going to it in a clear line. It would be interesting to see at the end of a 3-4 hour ride if the bottle was down at all.

For me, doing the delete was for a more consistent injection mix. I figured it was at least a good 8lbs losing the oil tank too. You hear a lot of cases of the stock oiler going bad too whether over oiling or under oiling so I guess either way has it's problems.

Aaron

Dano702 · Jan 26, 2010

WyoBoy1000 said:
40:1 is the right mix, and if you run enough in it can still get by the seals and into the center of the case, but if you tune it to run clean(lean) at some point it will dry out and it wont get enough into the center. Remember this happened after I put on a PC III witch cleaned up the map. I am thinking of putting the oiler back on and run the lines that go to the intake boots back into the oil tank and run 40:1 in the tank. This way I am still getting the consistency of a 40:1 mix to the pistons and the correct amount to the bearings and water pump. and adding a spring to keep it from sticking. does anyone see why this wont work. I don't care about the weight as much as the I do how it runs, the 3.2lbs is worth reliability.

I pulled the motor and handed it to my dealer. his estimate is $1600 with AC crank exchange. His work is top notch but you pay for it.

This is what i was thinking about doing on my 09 . Just something to keep the pump happy till its pushing Mobil 1 .

bgreen776 · Jan 26, 2010

AaronBND said:
I think the mod you did is the proper way to do it bgreen. Unfortunately, not everyone tears their engine down like you did to do the mod the correct way. The question is....what can the regular Joe Blow do to protect himself when he wants this mod?

The decision to delete your oil pump should be based on several factors, one of which is your tolerance for risk. If a person wants to delete their pump simply to save a few lbs, but doesn't have the budget to pay someone to strip their motor down and do the porting (or have the time/ability to do it themselves), they probably shouldn't consider it an option. A burned up motor or two is a pretty expensive way to save 8 lbs or less.

If a guy is concerned about a stickey oil pump causing runability problems, has exhausted all other means of eliminating his bog/etc, has the time and ability to perform the necessary mods to the case, and has a moderate tolerance for risk, then this stuff we are talking about might make sense.

Is that center section a positive vacuum I assume? If that's the case, a guy should be able to get a 6mm 90* barb fitting and screw it in the bottom of the case and have a little bottle full of oil somewhere for it to draw out of going to it in a clear line. It would be interesting to see at the end of a 3-4 hour ride if the bottle was down at all.

The center section is probably in a constant state of change, positive pressure, through one part of the cycle, and negative pressure (vacuum) in the other. If you wanted to get an idea of what is actually going on there, you could plumb a gage into the factory oil port under the water pump shaft then pull the engine over with the key off, maybe that would answer your question.

For me, doing the delete was for a more consistent injection mix. I figured it was at least a good 8lbs losing the oil tank too. You hear a lot of cases of the stock oiler going bad too whether over oiling or under oiling so I guess either way has it's problems.

Right on.

bgreen776 · Jan 26, 2010

What about actually pumping a very small amount of pre-mix right out of your fuel line before it goes to the throttle bodies? Tap into the fuel line then run it through a very, very, small orifice and into the port on the bottom of the case. The scavenging you get through the labys and the "chamfer" on the upper case split line, might be enough to draw that fuel across the gear. It also might make your engine run rich, especially at idle.

Hmm... This probably isn't a good idea since all it would take to loose lubrication is one speck of dirt.

m8magicandmystery · Jan 26, 2010

lynxer292b said:
The pictures above prove that the only way you can delete the oil injection safely is to regularily grease the shaft. The argument is that the grease can seap to the other bearings. Which is partially true.

ah...if grease can get to other bearings then the oil gets to the cavity,you just supported the delete works as per bdx instructions

..look guys...i hooked up a hose to a banjo fitting to the bottom hole that BDX said to plug for a safe guard..ran the hose up and tied it off and plugged it off after adding an ounce or two...

i can fill that hose all day and start the sled and it smokes like a train...so the oil definately passes through the cavity into the main crankcase...so the crankcase definately lubes the cavity,the BDX delete is sound imo

bgreen776 · Jan 26, 2010

I'm not here to defend BDX, but I'm not here to disparage them either.

Lets just say that BDX never offered this kit, how many of us would have ever considered deleting our oil injection? If thats the case, why are we considering it now? I don't have a ton of experience with snowmobile engines, but I have always considered this mod to be a full race, hot rod engine tuner/tech, machinist, mechanic, kinda mod. (does that make sense?) I never considered deleting the oil pump to be a bolt on, DIY, kinda thing. Why would some company telling us that all the sudden, none of that matters, all you gotta do is bolt on this little 20 dollar bushing and all those years of "techy" mods don't matter anymore?

gopher-it! · Jan 27, 2010

oil

WyoBoy1000 said:
40:1 is the right mix, and if you run enough in it can still get by the seals and into the center of the case, but if you tune it to run clean(lean) at some point it will dry out and it wont get enough into the center. Remember this happened after I put on a PC III witch cleaned up the map. I am thinking of putting the oiler back on and run the lines that go to the intake boots back into the oil tank and run 40:1 in the tank. This way I am still getting the consistency of a 40:1 mix to the pistons and the correct amount to the bearings and water pump. and adding a spring to keep it from sticking. does anyone see why this wont work. I don't care about the weight as much as the I do how it runs, the 3.2lbs is worth reliability.

I pulled the motor and handed it to my dealer. his estimate is $1600 with AC crank exchange. His work is top notch but you pay for it.

i got about 250 miles at 40-1 premix when water pump shaft and bushing were toast. replaced all and now run a xp racing bottle[ holds about 5 ozs.] reroute oil lines from throttle bottle boots back to tank, keep oil line going to crank cavity and good to go. i use about 2 ozs per 50 mile ride and no worries.

ItDoAble · Jan 27, 2010

gopher-it! said:
i got about 250 miles at 40-1 premix when water pump shaft and bushing were toast. replaced all and now run a xp racing bottle[ holds about 5 ozs.] reroute oil lines from throttle bottle boots back to tank, keep oil line going to crank cavity and good to go. i use about 2 ozs per 50 mile ride and no worries.

Great idea. I've been greasing the cavity every few rides, which is kind of a PITA... and potential blow-up is always in the back of my mind. Just ordered a racing bottle from a SkiDoo dealer, $35. PN 420956240

In the SkiDoo pictures (440 racer parts diagram), they are using it for the same thing .. to lube the oil pump shaft cavity when pre-mixing. But, from the pics it looks gravity fed (no pump).

From what I've read, sounds like gravity feed would use oil faster than the pump system? Guys talk about smoking like crazy, etc..

Opinions ??

Gopher .. do you need PN's 28, 29, 30 for the hoses to fit? What fittings did you use to 're-route' the injection hoses going back into the tank?

Ausm7499 · Jan 27, 2010

How about a picture of this setup installed on an M

lynxer292b · Jan 27, 2010

m8magicandmystery said:
ah...if grease can get to other bearings then the oil gets to the cavity,you just supported the delete works as per bdx instructions

..look guys...i hooked up a hose to a banjo fitting to the bottom hole that BDX said to plug for a safe guard..ran the hose up and tied it off and plugged it off after adding an ounce or two...

i can fill that hose all day and start the sled and it smokes like a train...so the oil definately passes through the cavity into the main crankcase...so the crankcase definately lubes the cavity,the BDX delete is sound imo

Yes it obviously works for a very very limited time. The seals let some pre mix into the center shaft, but it is obviously not enough as everyone is having troubles with another BDX product. Where is BDX to tell us what is up?

bgreen776 · Jan 27, 2010

If that's the case how do you explain the hundreds of customers that don't have any problems? There is at least one guy in this very thread that has logged thousands of miles on bdx delete kits.

lynxer292b · Jan 27, 2010

they take their grandmas for trail rides? How about the 200,000 toyota owners that have great working cars and the only 2,000 that have had their vehciles speed out of control to their death? Is it ok to sweep it under the rug because 180,000 (dont quote exact numbers, but you see what I am getting at) did not have problems (yet)? I know we are not talking about people dying here, but engines are dying. Unlike the Toyota problem there is a direct viewable reasoning of why the engines are seizing. It is not just one guy having the problem.

snowmanx · Jan 27, 2010

lynxer292b said:
This is just one of many that have done this. BDX makes BS stuff and it shows. Yeah some guys have gotten by half lucky. They probably bring the grandmas on trail rides too. The pictures above prove that the only way you can delete the oil injection safely is to regularily grease the shaft. The argument is that the grease can seap to the other bearings. Which is partially true. Seriously guys what do you gain by doing the delete?! not much. It is safer to just leave it and tell BDX to go fly a friggen kite

You're not whistling dixie......my 900 turbo went down because of their bumper kit and ended up breaking my cooler. A simple e-mail notifyinme of the problem could have prevented it.

WyoBoy1000 · Jan 27, 2010

I will say it again, I think the reason for failure happened when I added the PCIII. It cleaned up the fuel map so much that there was no extra fuel/pre mix to soak the bottom end. I was also riding the trail for 6 miles. When on the trail most of the time any sled run pretty lean for emissions and at wot there is no extra pre mix to sit around. I have no problems with the BDX delete. But under these circumstances it is a direct result of there product causing a motor failure, and its time for them to be more informative and offer a solution. I asked them about it when they sold it to me and said no worries. If you are a tuner that likes precision when tuning a fuel map and want proper lube then its a bad mod without doing some modding to make there product work. I should have corrected it but kept running out of time and telling myself backcountry gets away with it and many other. MY FAULT in the end.

As for pluging the oil injection holes you could cause the pump to over oil the bottom or build to much pressure. what you want to do is find a small jug, mount it somewhere and then T the two lines together and plum it back into the jug and run premix in the gas tank. This way it will get the right amount of oil as long as the pump doesn't stick(may want to add a light spring to help it return. I have also thought about hooking it up this way and leaving the pump to throttle arm disconnected, because at idle it should still pump in plenty of oil. But not sure.???

This setup would be the best overall for lubrication and 40:1 getting to the cylinders. But you will still have about 4 lbs worth of stuff on your sled(worth it) and any one could do it. also there are many types of jugs that could work for this setup. let get opinions on that. Look for ones on any type of vehical, ATV's, Sleds, Cars, Lawn mowers ect... lot of options.

As for running premix from the fuel line. Your fuel pump pushes at 45lbs of pressure this could over fill the center of crank and cause it to seep into the crank ports and cause a rich bog and a very inconsistent tunning problem or worse push the seals out. it could also force air and crap into the fuel if it get to much compression.

AC needs a recall on there oilers (because they stick, and I can prove it with mine and it has about 350 miles on it)

BDX needs to step up and offer more options

I always used AC APV oil as well.

I'm glad to see good info coming out of this thread, thanks to everyone with good input. Lets keep it going.

Thanks

WyoBoy1000 · Jan 27, 2010

lynxer292b said:
they take their grandmas for trail rides? How about the 200,000 toyota owners that have great working cars and the only 2,000 that have had their vehciles speed out of control to their death? Is it ok to sweep it under the rug because 180,000 (dont quote exact numbers, but you see what I am getting at) did not have problems (yet)? I know we are not talking about people dying here, but engines are dying. Unlike the Toyota problem there is a direct viewable reasoning of why the engines are seizing. It is not just one guy having the problem.

No offense
This is the dumbest comparison I've seen, LOL at least from what I get out of the toyota thing is the floor mats cause the gas pedal to stick. How F ing stupid do you have to be not to reach up and turn the key off. Especially the off duty officer that was killed this way. Thats a common sense problem.

YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID

Back to topic.

If any thing I feel bad for those not on snowest that will never get most of this info and loose big money on a $25 mod.

bgreen776 · Jan 27, 2010

WyoBoy1000 said:
AC needs a recall on there oilers (because they stick, and I can prove it with mine and it has about 350 miles on it)

BDX needs to step up and offer more options

I always used AC APV oil as well.

I'm glad to see good info coming out of this thread, thanks to everyone with good input. Lets keep it going.

Thanks

Your absolutely right, and I would like to add that we, as the consumer, need to take responsibility for our equipment too. The BDX bumper causing tunnels is a great example. Its our responsibility to inspect our sleds on a regular basis, especially when we modify them with light weight and/or performance parts. Its also our responsibility to install our mods with care and understanding of how they work. How many people here, that have had oil delete kit failures have taken the time to actually measure the clearance between the water pump shaft and the bushing? How do we know that the shaft wasnt slightly out of spec from the factory?

None of us can prove without a doubt that our sleds wouldn't have had a crank/waterpump shaft failure if we had left our stock injection pump alone.

BDX oil delete, Caused 09 M1000 crank seize in 950miles running 40:1

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