Rear Suspension Talk

JJ_0909 · Feb 5, 2018

fredw said:
Sag does nothing but hurt you in steep and deep, it's great to have strategic guys set up to take the perfect pictures in the medows or put in a movie but not a pratical feature for guys pushing the limit, sag causes skis to be off ground and no control..

So Bret Rasmussen must not be able to ride the tech

(he runs sag...)

Sag is not the culprit of being unable to ride steep terrain but spring rate (and to an extent, damping) is.

The problem with the stock ski-doo torsion bars is they are soft. Increasing preload to the point you have no sag helps mitigate the transfer as your starting rate is higher (but overall spring rate remains the same). This allows the RTS to "catch" the transfer earlier, but you are left with a less than desirable ride elsewhere.

For the ski-doo skid to ride best, you want a progressive rear shock, either through Renton's setup or through a progressive air shock (tom's)

Obviously, working for Tom, you know which I'm partial to. Either way, a setup that is designed to sag, allowing more weight to sit on the skid in a neutral position but then get progressive as the shock is cycled is going to allow for a playful ride without trenching or wheelie-ing over backwards.

fredw · Feb 5, 2018

Ride what you want, we will stick with no sag, no my first rodeo..

JJ_0909 said:
So Bret Rasmussen must not be able to ride the tech (he runs sag...)

Sag is not the culprit of being unable to ride steep terrain but spring rate (and to an extent, damping) is.

The problem with the stock ski-doo torsion bars is they are soft. Increasing preload to the point you have no sag helps mitigate the transfer as your starting rate is higher (but overall spring rate remains the same). This allows the RTS to "catch" the transfer earlier, but you are left with a less than desirable ride elsewhere.

For the ski-doo skid to ride best, you want a progressive rear shock, either through Renton's setup or through a progressive air shock (tom's)

Obviously, working for Tom, you know which I'm partial to. Either way, a setup that is designed to sag, allowing more weight to sit on the skid in a neutral position but then get progressive as the shock is cycled is going to allow for a playful ride without trenching or wheelie-ing over backwards.

JJ_0909 · Feb 5, 2018

fredw said:
Ride what you want, we will stick with no sag, no my first rodeo..

This is a prime example of why snowmobiling is becoming an increasingly difficult sport to have a discussion in.

I don't think no sag is "right or wrong", or sag is "right or wrong", but I do know there is a discussion underneath it that should not challenge your core beliefs to end with "not my first rodeo" (AKA: Go pound sand). What I was illustrating was the underlying cause of why no sag may work, but also why sag may work. If I need to articulate this better, or utilize more objectiveness to do so, I will. I've gone so far as to put scales under my sled, and also have experience on other chassis (that...gasp...have sag and ride amazing in steep technical terrain).

This isn't politics. This isn't religion. Why do we have to make it so with respect to our silly hard lined beliefs? Does it serve us to do this? Do we grow from this?

Every other sport I've been a part of, discussions like this turn into robust learning experiences for everyone.

Not to throw my hands in the air, but objective rational thought is becoming harder to come by in this sport...

(no personal offense to you fredw - but I do think we could have a better conversation than this...including "run heavier torsion springs and you can have sag and more anti wheelie effect...")

fredw · Feb 5, 2018

JJ_0909 said:
This is a prime example of why snowmobiling is becoming an increasingly difficult sport to have a discussion in.

I don't think no sag is "right or wrong", or sag is "right or wrong", but I do know there is a discussion underneath it that should not challenge your core beliefs to end with "not my first rodeo" (AKA: Go pound sand). What I was illustrating was the underlying cause of why no sag may work, but also why sag may work.

This isn't politics. This isn't religion. Why do we have to make it so?

Every other sport I've been a part of, discussions like this turn into robust learning experiences for everyone.

Not to throw my hands in the air, but objective rational thought is becoming harder to come by in this sport...

(no personal offense to you fredw - but I do think we could have a better conversation than this...including "run heavier torsion springs and you can have your sag again)

I just been there done that, you have your feelings on it, mine are different.. we have had many stock skids with us, drive them and compared for the steep and deep we ride, ski lift is not very practical..

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JJ_0909 · Feb 5, 2018

fredw said:
I just been there done that, you have your feelings on it, mine are different.. we have had many stock skids with us, drive them and compared for the steep and deep we ride, ski lift is not very practical..

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Understood. I 100% agree that excessive ski lift and trenching is a great way to go nowhere fun.

I was really trying to show that there is a give and take to this equation, and maybe ways to minimize that through the aftermarket side of things.

I know if I was running thin on cash, I'd go up to a heavier torsion bar and run a bit of sag. I'd also get my rts revalved significantly firmer. This would allow for a ride that was a bit more playful, especially if boosted, while still minimizing the negative attributes of rear track shock sag.

Again, I think there is a really interesting conversation beneath all of this. The G4 chassis carries SO much of its weight on the skis and due to its poor skid design, it also over-transfers that weight. Worst of both worlds.

Other chassis, like the Axys, are more balanced in a neutral (flat ground, sitting there) but also do a better job (without crazy money being thrown around) dialing in the amount of weight transfer in steep terrain.

I know a lot of this is due to how each brand places the weight of the sled, but there is also setup, tuning and part swapping that can really transform the way the G4 rides...and I don't just mean its "awesome in meadows".
My $0.02

ak · Feb 5, 2018

Fred’s into point and shoot hill climb stuff. Rasmussen rides trees and side hills all day long two different styles of riding. Plus there’s probably a 100lbs difference in rider weight.

Shortline · Feb 5, 2018

ak said:
Fred’s into point and shoot hill climb stuff. Rasmussen rides trees and side hills all day long two different styles of riding. Plus there’s probably a 100lbs difference in rider weight.

Good point about different riding styles and different rider weight.

I want that mythical all around all-mountain sled. I want it to sidehill, be playful in the pillows, climb like a mountain goat and oh yea.... not rattle my teeth on the miles of whoops during the trial ride out of the backcountry when I'm most fatigued.

Now I realize that's not probably not going to happen but I'm very interested in hearing insights that allow me to make the best setup decisions for my situation. I like to hear technical basis for those insights if possible too. Keep up the great discussion.

JJ_0909 · Feb 6, 2018

Shortline said:
Good point about different riding styles and different rider weight.

I want that mythical all around all-mountain sled. I want it to sidehill, be playful in the pillows, climb like a mountain goat and oh yea.... not rattle my teeth on the miles of whoops during the trial ride out of the backcountry when I'm most fatigued.

Now I realize that's not probably not going to happen but I'm very interested in hearing insights that allow me to make the best setup decisions for my situation. I like to hear technical basis for those insights if possible too. Keep up the great discussion.

Really good point pertaining to Fred's riding style.

Shortline, I'm after something very similar. I think you are going to have a hard time finding it without utilizing aftermarket suspension.

Few ideas...

I do think you need to look at deleting the torsion bars or going to a Renton Coil Spring setup, though the Renton setup is a bit firm on trail. (and still requires Fox dampers to work correctly)

Not to sound like I'm tooting my own horn but air (Toms) is a good option for you based purely off how adjustable it is. Also the new Fox stuff does allow you to go from "trail" (1) to "all around" (2) to "minimize transfer" (3 or lockout) with a 3 second turn of a lever.

This lets me have wildly different setups without a spring swap, without a revalve and without pulling out a wrench to mess with limiter settings.

I know the quality of the Raptor stuff is also awesome, but the nature of coil is such that it is going to be less adjustable. Whether or not this matters to you really depends on how much you really plan on playing with settings.

I'd personally look at one of these setups if I were you. I think you'll be pleased either way.

tchriste · Feb 6, 2018

After playing with different options last year and realizing that there is no rescuing the stock skid I installed a Kmod and Raptors in the front. This allows sag and still retains the playfulness. it allows the stiffness for climbing and allows adjustability for ski hight while climbing. limiter actually is out quite a bit in comparison to stock. One does not have to sacrifice meadows for climbing or for that matter anything for trails. however there is a cost.

JJ_0909 · Feb 6, 2018

tchriste said:
After playing with different options last year and realizing that there is no rescuing the stock skid I installed a Kmod and Raptors in the front. This allows sag and still retains the playfulness. it allows the stiffness for climbing and allows adjustability for ski hight while climbing. limiter actually is out quite a bit in comparison to stock. One does not have to sacrifice meadows for climbing or for that matter anything for trails. however there is a cost.

I almost wrote this too. I bet that K-Mod setup is rad. But yeah, like you said, it does come at a higher price.

Wapow · Feb 6, 2018

I'm in the minority that likes the stock Doo setup. I have a 154" and set the limiter one hole looser than factory and it rides like a dirt bike to me. I can lift the skis at will and it's super nimble. And I have no issues with sidehilling or climbing, but I don't care about how it handles near vertical walls of hardpack. I do something else when those conditions prevail. The rest of the time, it's a party machine/smile factory. And, I had XPs, so I know what the opposite feels like.

Shortline · Feb 6, 2018

Wapow said:
I'm in the minority that likes the stock Doo setup. I have a 154" and set the limiter one hole looser than factory and it rides like a dirt bike to me. I can lift the skis at will and it's super nimble. And I have no issues with sidehilling or climbing, but I don't care about how it handles near vertical walls of hardpack. I do something else when those conditions prevail. The rest of the time, it's a party machine/smile factory. And, I had XPs, so I know what the opposite feels like.

I have to say I'm happy with the stock skid too. However, if I'm being honest I would have to say I wouldn't know what a good rear suspension felt like if I was hit upside the head with it. Until I get the chance to ride something that makes me realize I'm missing out on something I plan to just keep tweaking the stock settings.

I'm sure ponying up some $$ for shocks or skids can be worth it but I'm at the blissful ignorance stage at this point. :face-icon-small-coo

fredw · Feb 6, 2018

I like toms idea of full lockout shock for steep/deep and with the turn of a knob back to standard riding with sag if you wish for meadows, trail or after ski lift.. He sent me some pictures and it look promising, never heard back on his finished product yet

It's real tough to find a skid good for everything, it seams one or the other..but no skid able to do both..

Ace Freely · Feb 6, 2018

To those that like the stock skid...what do you weigh?

Ace

SODAK-DOO · Feb 7, 2018

Ace Freely said:
To those that like the stock skid...what do you weigh?

Ace

150# with gear.

fredw · Feb 7, 2018

Jumped on a mpi 850 kit this last week with every thing stock for a skid.. Still had tmotion hooked up.. Never made it to far and it was almost on the side a few times.. Pined it in the trees and ski lift was there, but rideable

Asked him after how he likes his skid, he said its squirley but you get the hang of it, he was 150lbs.. And a low boost kit

He was installing inserts this week for more control and a cheap fix

cacsrx1 · Feb 7, 2018

I’m 220lbs in street clothes and my stock skid was a skis in the air wobbling mess......now it’s fixed and I’m very happy with it.

JJ_0909 · Feb 7, 2018

fredw said:
I like toms idea of full lockout shock for steep/deep and with the turn of a knob back to standard riding with sag if you wish for meadows, trail or after ski lift.. He sent me some pictures and it look promising, never heard back on his finished product yet

It's real tough to find a skid good for everything, it seams one or the other..but no skid able to do both..

I've got it on my sled. If you want a pict you can find one here...

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=681a3b54f619939ab0760c837c984731&oe=5B0E58EB

Ace Freely · Feb 7, 2018

sounds like the skids work for welter weights... but I can tell you that the skid don't work for sheet for the Cysdale divsion...

Ace

Ace Freely · Feb 7, 2018

cacsrx1 said:
I’m 220lbs in street clothes and my stock skid was a skis in the air wobbling mess......now it’s fixed and I’m very happy with it.

...what was your fix?

Ace

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