trouble with turbos

As a person who worked for a dyno manufacturer and owned a few.
There is NO gain for anyone to play with correction factors.

all one needs to back up any dyno test is fuel lbs pr hr and the bsfc.
then no amount of manipulated corrections can fool anyone..

it takes airflow to make torque, psi of boost is a factor but falls out of accurate measure when you are working with small turbo,s or NA high or wide port timings.

fwiw. we have some dyno work on the ho and non ho 800 doo with the 2876 and 2860. carbed of course. same sled just comparing turbos. and of course its seal level so the base compression has been lowered which drops the NA power base line thus lowering the total power output by said amount.

15 psi for us was 263 falling off hard at 8400 rpm 2860 turbo
15 psi 288 pulling hard thru 8700 rpm 2876 turbo again this is not an e torch. and its got .100 squish 11.1 comp..

now the 2015 800 137 etech WILL BE THRASHED at Jims by me when the 15s come in. I am buying one for myself and using it for all of the world to see exactly what is there from 7 psi thru 25 psi for the real low altitude rider and lake racers. I will compare 2871, to 3076 as well.

It will be fun to see if this thing can run as well as the old 800 non ho.

the ho is a pooch compared to the non ho on boost...POOOOOCH !!!!

the one test on jims site is a 2860, using dobeque controls. 230 ish is whats in the torch turbo at seal level 7 psi.

Gus

Thanks for clearing up some of the bull s--t Gus that people have been talking.There are so many variables when it come to sleds that it is impossible to compare one to the other.Numbers don't lie only the people that type them in.Build your sled tune it and throw away the instructions on how to get more boost you will all have more fun, if your going to try to be king of the hill it's going to bring headaches.I am a firm believer that there is very little diff between turbo system but a lot of diff between tuners.I have ordered a stock sled again don't know if I will boost it or not we are getting to the point that the young guys are going to drop out of sledding because they can't afford to keep up with there freinds.I have listened to builders get cut down because this failed or his buddy with a different system beat him.I have rode with quit a few different systems they all have their plus and minuses.Some people won't tell you how much they dislike the sled because they have 25,000.00 into it. If ski-doo,Polaris ,cat,could build a 400 lb 250 hp sled and give four years warranty that would last I do believe it would be on the snow.It took me a while to learn what I have and the biggest thing that I have learned is if you want 5lbs boost today and 20 tomorrow when your trying to show up your buddies don't complain when it blows up and don't come on here and say it is a piece of s--t.

turboxp said:

Thanks for clearing up some of the bull s--t Gus that people have been talking.There are so many variables when it come to sleds that it is impossible to compare one to the other.Numbers don't lie only the people that type them in.Build your sled tune it and throw away the instructions on how to get more boost you will all have more fun, if your going to try to be king of the hill it's going to bring headaches.I am a firm believer that there is very little diff between turbo system but a lot of diff between tuners.I have ordered a stock sled again don't know if I will boost it or not we are getting to the point that the young guys are going to drop out of sledding because they can't afford to keep up with there freinds.I have listened to builders get cut down because this failed or his buddy with a different system beat him.I have rode with quit a few different systems they all have their plus and minuses.Some people won't tell you how much they dislike the sled because they have 25,000.00 into it. If ski-doo,Polaris ,cat,could build a 400 lb 250 hp sled and give four years warranty that would last I do believe it would be on the snow.It took me a while to learn what I have and the biggest thing that I have learned is if you want 5lbs boost today and 20 tomorrow when your trying to show up your buddies don't complain when it blows up and don't come on here and say it is a piece of s--t.

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lots of truth in this.

The guys i find have the worst experience with turbo sleds are guys that one day want to run 4# on pump, then the next day they want to run 15# and climb chutes... and back and forth and all over.

Not saying a sled cant be setup to run both, or a mix of boost levels, but each level requires more then just basic clutch weight changes and boost level to work ideally. Each boost level has different preloads on the wastegate,among many things, so how the motor revs/reacts changes drastically. This in turn affects fueling down low, and also affects shift patterns in the clutches. Also, if your sled railled when you ran 50/50 91/110 mix at say 9# then you crank it to straight 15# on straight 110, now the octane is massively changing your bottom end fuel and clutching needs again just based on burn characteristics. it will rail WOT, but gonna be weird down low and require a new fueling/clutching plan.

The guys I find that enjoy there sleds the most, chose a boost level, get a good fuel mix down for it, dial clutching and fueling in, and RIDE and enjoy there sled. Someone always has a faster sled then you, dont try and turn yours up and race them, most likely gonna do something stupid and blow it up, break something, etc. Set up a sled for how YOU want it to perform, get it how you like it and leave it alone.

Or dont, constantly dick around with it and never really enjoy the sled..... your call.

Also, some other food for thought.

There is so many, well my buddies buddy had problems with such and such a company... turbos suck.....

I have delt with a lot of different people in this industry so far and by FAR the most frustrating thing is certain customers. And people who cannot accept blame for issues they have created. I have gotten yelled at over the phone for half an hour straight by people, come to find out, stupid mistake on their part that I wouldn't even disrespect someone by asking them to check... and bam, come to find out, stupid simple mistake, but never get an appology, etc. Im sure plenty of the horror stories stem from things like this, but nobody ever figures it out, I was lucky on the worst one and manged to figure it out, but still. Maybe the problem isn't the customers, its actually in the kit. But, as a customer, if you act like an asshat and are insanely rude, nobody wants to help you. Yes, you bought something and its supposed to work, we all know that. But, approach me with concern and desire to fix the problem, I will bend over backwards to help you and make it right. Call up and yell and act like a 3 year old who's toy broke, your not at the top of my desire to help list.

Guys, realize your asking for an INSANE amount of power out of a tiny motor that isnt designed for it. The chassis are barely built to handle the stock HP without falling apart. We bounce them down the harshest of trails, hold them WOT for minutes at a time, then shut them off 5 seconds later, we leave them covered in snow and ice in a trailer for weeks at a time between rides. and just expect to put gas in them and go? These aren't your mamma's mini van. They are very high performance machines put through one of the most terrible environments a person can imagine. You don't see guys taking there sub 9 second race cars, bouncing them down a dirt road, leaving them in the rain and just show up at the strip expecting to kick ***.. Same gig. preventative maintenance is the best kind. Care for them, cover them, put good gas in them, make sure one of the 10000 little peices that makes it work isn't about to fail and ruin your ride.

Well said wheel house

i have ran turbos on two strokes and man they are fun .The only reason that I am going back to a 2 stroke is I am getting old and hopefully smarter ( no turbo).I have rode with guys that I consider very good riders seen them with turboed four strokes with 20to25lbs boost wow.Now I see them riding two strokes turboed why because they are lighter and easier on the body at end of the day.The one young fella whose name I won't mention told me one day that if you want to pull cutes in deep powder four stroke all the way but if u want to have a great day and not be wore out 2strokes.Builders and consumers that say that a full boosted two stroke will keep up to a full boosted four stroke aren't telling themselves the truth.To each his own I guess but back to what I had said earlier numbers don't lie only those who input them.It is just to bad that all builders couldn't get together and put their great minds to work build the best system ever let a outsider build and you all take a cut lol never happen.Hopefully no feeling hurt don't want any of that bad rep stuff.

WHM
“The guys i find have the worst experience with turbo sleds are guys that one day want to run 4# on pump, then the next day they want to run 15# and climb chutes... and back and forth and all over.”

“Guys, realize your asking for an INSANE amount of power out of a tiny motor that isnt designed for it. The chassis are barely built to handle the stock HP without falling apart. We bounce them down the harshest of trails, hold them WOT for minutes at a time, then shut them off 5 seconds later, we leave them covered in snow and ice in a trailer for weeks at a time between rides. and just expect to put gas in them and go?”

Good points WHM. Talking to Brett Ras and Tony Jenkins they set their sleds to make "200HP no matter what elevation we ride at". The Boonedocker setup they use with the EBC(electronic boost control) automatically changes the boost level as elevation changes so the performance is nearly the same day in day out no matter where they are riding at. Once they get the clutching dialed for that boost level it's good for the whole year. Those guys need their sleds to RUN for 75-100 days a year. They can't afford to have their sleds be unreliable as it will interrupt paying customers clinics and cost them money and hassle.
Backcountrypro you say your turbo sled is no more hassle than a NA sled but you "pull the clutch EVERY ride"? We ride 2-3 days in a row a lot over the winter and I don't have time to do that on one sled let alone 3(mine and my boys) every ride. And you don't check track tension, fasteners on all the suspension points, grease the suspension, check for wires rubbing and ties wraps breaking underhood, adjust your chain or belt drive? All you do is clutch maintenance? :face-icon-small-con

Matte Murder said:

The ETEC is just a tough engine to turbo. The best I've ridden/ridden with has been the Boonedocker. Their parts and components are all top notch and the parts they build in house are pretty sweet too. I nearly bought an Aerocharger for my 12 Freeride but chickened out. My local dealer put one on his personal sled and it NEVER ran right. Not one time did that sled run well for a whole day. It ate 3 sets of reeds too. Then when Aerocharger made/bought/whatever turbo reeds they wouldn't even send a set to my dealer. They didn't have "enough" that season and the next season they told him "we only have reeds for the NEW kits we are shipping". I can't even get my head wrapped around that.
The comments about knowing how to wrench a turbo sled are spot on. That kind of performance stresses every part of the sled. At a minimum a turbo owner needs to make sure and nut and bolt his sled every other ride like a previous poster said or stuff is gonna start falling off or failing.
Chadly needs to tell you the rest of his story. He had a miss he couldn't fix for half the season and really couldn't find anyone in the Seattle area to help him. When he went to ID to ride with Brett he tracked down the problem pretty quick but he still lost a lot of the season. A couple weeks ago his sled caught on fire and burned to the snow. Oil line, gas line, electrical fire who knows.??? It would take a CSI investigation to sift thru the ashes now and figure it out.
If/when I ever do a two stroke turbo it will be a Cat or Poo even though I love the XM. Seen and ridden a lot of nice running turbos on those brands.

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In BoonDocker's defense the problem I had with the sled for the early part of the season had nothing to do with the turbo. It was a problem with exhaust valves that could have happened to any stock 800. And as for the fire, I'm pretty sure it was the plastic vent on the passenger side that broke and fell onto the exhaust. So I would say both issues I had were non turbo related. I was more than happy with the sled and have another one coming to replace it.

Matte Murder said:

WHM
“The guys i find have the worst experience with turbo sleds are guys that one day want to run 4# on pump, then the next day they want to run 15# and climb chutes... and back and forth and all over.”

“Guys, realize your asking for an INSANE amount of power out of a tiny motor that isnt designed for it. The chassis are barely built to handle the stock HP without falling apart. We bounce them down the harshest of trails, hold them WOT for minutes at a time, then shut them off 5 seconds later, we leave them covered in snow and ice in a trailer for weeks at a time between rides. and just expect to put gas in them and go?”

Good points WHM. Talking to Brett Ras and Tony Jenkins they set their sleds to make "200HP no matter what elevation we ride at". The Boonedocker setup they use with the EBC(electronic boost control) automatically changes the boost level as elevation changes so the performance is nearly the same day in day out no matter where they are riding at. Once they get the clutching dialed for that boost level it's good for the whole year. Those guys need their sleds to RUN for 75-100 days a year. They can't afford to have their sleds be unreliable as it will interrupt paying customers clinics and cost them money and hassle.
Backcountrypro you say your turbo sled is no more hassle than a NA sled but you "pull the clutch EVERY ride"? We ride 2-3 days in a row a lot over the winter and I don't have time to do that on one sled let alone 3(mine and my boys) every ride. And you don't check track tension, fasteners on all the suspension points, grease the suspension, check for wires rubbing and ties wraps breaking underhood, adjust your chain or belt drive? All you do is clutch maintenance? :face-icon-small-con

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Sorry what I call a "ride" is three straight days of riding; i.e. a weekend trip of riding. Of course I check the routine things but as far as extra care for the turbo components I just haven't had to do much. Maybe I am one of the lucky ones??? :face-icon-small-hap

Guys who ride a lot or guys who ride consecutive days it is critical that you store you sled at night in a heated space. Condensation forms and allowing your sled to freeze over night can an will cause performance issues on the following days ride.

It's the little thing you routinely do to your sled that makes the difference on how your sled performs.

DPG

Deep Powder Guy said:

Guys who ride a lot or guys who ride consecutive days it is critical that you store you sled at night in a heated space. Condensation forms and allowing your sled to freeze over night can an will cause performance issues on the following days ride.

It's the little thing you routinely do to your sled that makes the difference on how your sled performs.

DPG

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Maybe this is different in WA or something like that, but I never put my sleds in anything when I'm riding... they stay on the sled deck will the end of a trip or sunday afternoon. The idea that it's CRITICAL to do this is kinda silly. It's a SLED... they're made to be wet & cold.

backcountryislife said:

Maybe this is different in WA or something like that, but I never put my sleds in anything when I'm riding... they stay on the sled deck will the end of a trip or sunday afternoon. The idea that it's CRITICAL to do this is kinda silly. It's a SLED... they're made to be wet & cold.

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I live in Washington and I never do anything to my sleds. They sit all summer with the same gas that is in them when I park them. I start them up and ride them without doing anything after summer. I ran both of them all winter without checking clutches or any thing else. If something breaks I try to fix it and if I can't then the sled goes to the dealer. I add oil and add fuel that is it. I leave the sleds out over night in the snow all the time and ride them multiple days in a row. I understand some people are anal about their sleds but I think that is all it is. Being anal. I have never had a single issues with my stock 2013 163 XM (1,000 miles) and for the issues I had with my Turbo XM one was a fluke and all the rest are what I would consider very minor things that any turbo is going to have. I also don't intend to own anything more than a couple years so I am not too worried about preventative maintenance. Who wants to buy one of my used sleds? I agree with you these things are made to be out in the cold and wet.

Chadly said:

I live in Washington and I never do anything to my sleds. They sit all summer with the same gas that is in them when I park them. I start them up and ride them without doing anything after summer. I ran both of them all winter without checking clutches or any thing else. If something breaks I try to fix it and if I can't then the sled goes to the dealer. I add oil and add fuel that is it. I leave the sleds out over night in the snow all the time and ride them multiple days in a row. I understand some people are anal about their sleds but I think that is all it is. Being anal. I have never had a single issues with my stock 2013 163 XM (1,000 miles) and for the issues I had with my Turbo XM one was a fluke and all the rest are what I would consider very minor things that any turbo is going to have. I also don't intend to own anything more than a couple years so I am not too worried about preventative maintenance. Who wants to buy one of my used sleds? I agree with you these things are made to be out in the cold and wet.

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Cold & Wet is one thing frozen internal moving part is another....Frozen condensation in your fuel & fuel system has to be good for 10 extra ponies at the track.
DPG

I agree w the guys saying to set it at a given boost and just have fun. where I live (southeast bc) at our local areas im the only one I know of w a boosted 2 stroke that's local. in my experience the ones high marking are usually not the best riders and are from the parries. I don't mean to discriminate, but its true. I didn't turbo mine to compete, but just to have a fun project. I have exceeded my expectation and have TONNES of fun with it. for me that's what its all about. I use my sled to do shuttle snowboarding runs 70% of the time (mostly w my wife) and she is also astounded by what a game changer the turbo has been. in response to the thread title, any sled is only as good as the guy workin on it, turbo or not.