2 strokes complete standalone ecu for t-m8 and t-m1000

WyoBoy1000 · Feb 3, 2010

I don't think you have to have a M.A.S. If you could set up a ecu to get accurate egt temps and A/F reading(and knock sensor). Then build a program that adds or removes fuel as needed on the fly adjusting to rpm it should work. Of course this takes a base map to work off of but I think it could be done this way. One of the biggest unforeseen problems with a two stoke is everything has to be near perfect. From hearing about some of the differences in two of the exact same motors it could be catastrophic as well, like the throw of the crank being off, I've heard of one motor that the pto side was 12* advanced over the mag side, with a turbo that particular sled would either burn down or never run right.
I hope they get this figured out and can keep it in the price range of reasonable for the average guy.

supraturbo · Feb 4, 2010

Rydning said:
I have a buddy with a Apex MCX kit and as soon as we did any work on the clutching to get a better performing sled the midrange was way off...Why? That changed the load on the engine and he had to put a fuel box on it to controll the midrange. And IF this sled was with a MAF device that messured the acual air going into the engine and mapped right we wouldnt have got into this problems.

Non of the EFI sleds I know of are delivered any air volume messurment.
To solve this and be able to deliver a standalone that can work over a wider range of tuning you gona need a somekind of air flow/volume messurment.

But we also have a other problem with the 2 strokes that isnt on 4 strokes. The backpressure and it dosent mater if its Turboed og NA engine. It depends a lot on the backpressure and the hole state of tuning is going to change with this....

Standalone EFI is the way to go but having a locked map that is only gona work with 1 set up like OVS is not gona cover the work they are doing.
I feel they should think broader and deliver something with a base map and the right timing that works for the one who are able to tune the fuel with a AF.This way maybe they can get back the money invested.

The map OVS have is probably not gona work with Puch or Twister, but with slighly changes on the fuel delivery it will work for sure.

The main gain with a standalone is that you can make the timing perfect for turbo, witch it isnt on the stock ECU.

i agree with you, we can unlock base programming.....this being said, we don't want to let MR.EVERYBODY doing it. we want experienced tuner/autorized dealer to perform the changes requiered for diffrent set-up.we will put on the market a munufacturer caliber ecu mapping for boosted sled.......we do not want no professional to access the software and start hacking/modified the base programing.

supraturbo · Feb 4, 2010

WyoBoy1000 said:
I don't think you have to have a M.A.S. If you could set up a ecu to get accurate egt temps and A/F reading(and knock sensor). Then build a program that adds or removes fuel as needed on the fly adjusting to rpm it should work. Of course this takes a base map to work off of but I think it could be done this way. One of the biggest unforeseen problems with a two stoke is everything has to be near perfect. From hearing about some of the differences in two of the exact same motors it could be catastrophic as well, like the throw of the crank being off, I've heard of one motor that the pto side was 12* advanced over the mag side, with a turbo that particular sled would either burn down or never run right.
I hope they get this figured out and can keep it in the price range of reasonable for the average guy.

we use M.A.P sensor to calibrate(manifold absolute pressure) with electronic boost controller(industrial solenoid). the point of a standalone is to be able to tune the engine from 50 rpm (compare to 1000-2500 rpm)changes(if we want) to any load of the engine, plus to find and adjust the perfect timing for any setting. adjusting timing to perfection is the most important key for a reliable motor(less stress on the internals(crank,bearings,rods,pistons and rings).....each time there is an explosion in the combustion chamber that is not detonated by the sparkplug(as boost goes up,more air and fuel enter the combustion chamber and while being compressed ,heat goes up fast and it is getting so hot that it is detonating prior to the spark plug(timing) lightening the mixture).....hope it make sens(my phrasing!! this is where the language barrier is killing me!) so the slightest change in fuel/air mixture requiere a change in timing. that is why with whatever type of fuel boxes or closed loop system based on o2 sensor ect.. will slowly kill the interal of the engine.......the timing need to be adjusted with the slightest air/fuel mixture changes. i'm not saying a complete standalone will be 5 times more reliable at 6lbs boost(not prone to detonation very much), but at 14-20lbs boost, it is going to be night and day on the reliability. why is the oem ecu adjust timing to any given load of the engine?? do you guys think they are doing it for fun?why are the manufacturer doesn't permit us to modify their mapping,timing on their sleds? simply because, contrary to urban legends, it is infinitely complicated to fine tune an ecu.....and not .0000000000005% of the population can do it properly without sacrifying engine reliability/drivability

rsaint · Feb 6, 2010

Are your units going to work on any efi boosted sled. I have a 900 efi cat motor
on boost with dual injectors and a piggy back controler. This works ok are you gonig to have one for this would be interested in 2.

supraturbo · Feb 8, 2010

rsaint said:
Are your units going to work on any efi boosted sled. I have a 900 efi cat motor
on boost with dual injectors and a piggy back controler. This works ok are you gonig to have one for this would be interested in 2.

haven't had a chance to look at the oem connectors/wiring harness of these 900 yet....can't say.i have my hands full right now!!

Lightspd · Feb 12, 2010

Having been the key player in snowmobile standalone ecu development. You need to tone down the publicity annoucements until you have a finished product.

I have been working with the Yamaha's now for 2 years trying to have an acceptable product. We started out on a dyno but the differance between the dyno room and the mountains is huge. You need to develope your tune for between 0 feet and 9500 feet before this product is going to work for all users. After 2 years we are very close to announcing a complete product that has been tested in the mountains, on the flats, at all different elevations, from -25C to just above 0. I will tell you that you need to spend several weeks out west in the mountains with your box and several different machines. The changes between machines is a huge issue and you can not put total faith in holding your tune together using the auto tune. The autotune in a controlled environment will get you close but by no means is reliable for trusting a multi thousand dollar motor. We also had to play around with fuel distribution due to intake charge distribution between cylinders. We did this by watching EGT per cylinder and adding our corrections which the factory did already in their calibration. Mapping the engine using speed density is sort of OK with a multi throttle body setup but at altitude is not acceptable and will result in a cylinder going lean underboost during slight decel. You can run in a closed loop setup when you are lightly cruising but if that is your compensation then as soon as you go wot the correction factor takes too much time to be reliable. I am not sure what your logs are showing but under wot the engine was accelerating at over 370 rpm in 0.02 secs. The people that are interested in this product are doing it for reliability and performance a closed loop system can not do that end of story. The announcement that you are going to have all these machines mapped out is not going to happen overnight you need to first of all do multiple machines not just one of each model and think it is done then these multiple machines need to be tested in multiple environments. It is ok to run some hills out East but making a machine hold together that starts a climb at 4500 feet and pulls to 6500 feet in a matter of minutes is a whole different situation. After you have done this then come back to the forums.

The ECU you are using has the capability it is the tuning that is lacking. I know this because I have been distributing this ECU in Canada longer than anyone. This has been the hardest and most expensive project I have ever worked with. My partner and I are just under 50K in developing our project. Please take the time to test before this gets marketted.

Cam Koole
Lightspeed Innovations

supraturbo · Feb 14, 2010

Lightspd said:
Having been the key player in snowmobile standalone ecu development. You need to tone down the publicity annoucements until you have a finished product.

I have been working with the Yamaha's now for 2 years trying to have an acceptable product. We started out on a dyno but the differance between the dyno room and the mountains is huge. You need to develope your tune for between 0 feet and 9500 feet before this product is going to work for all users. After 2 years we are very close to announcing a complete product that has been tested in the mountains, on the flats, at all different elevations, from -25C to just above 0. I will tell you that you need to spend several weeks out west in the mountains with your box and several different machines. The changes between machines is a huge issue and you can not put total faith in holding your tune together using the auto tune. The autotune in a controlled environment will get you close but by no means is reliable for trusting a multi thousand dollar motor. We also had to play around with fuel distribution due to intake charge distribution between cylinders. We did this by watching EGT per cylinder and adding our corrections which the factory did already in their calibration. Mapping the engine using speed density is sort of OK with a multi throttle body setup but at altitude is not acceptable and will result in a cylinder going lean underboost during slight decel. You can run in a closed loop setup when you are lightly cruising but if that is your compensation then as soon as you go wot the correction factor takes too much time to be reliable. I am not sure what your logs are showing but under wot the engine was accelerating at over 370 rpm in 0.02 secs. The people that are interested in this product are doing it for reliability and performance a closed loop system can not do that end of story. The announcement that you are going to have all these machines mapped out is not going to happen overnight you need to first of all do multiple machines not just one of each model and think it is done then these multiple machines need to be tested in multiple environments. It is ok to run some hills out East but making a machine hold together that starts a climb at 4500 feet and pulls to 6500 feet in a matter of minutes is a whole different situation.

The ECU you are using has the capability it is the tuning that is lacking. I know this because I have been distributing this ECU in Canada longer than anyone. This has been the hardest and most expensive project I have ever worked with. My partner and I are just under 50K in developing our project. Please take the time to test before this gets marketted.

Cam Koole
Lightspeed Innovations

thanks for sharing your opinion Cam

i'am a bit confused you are talking about us tuning multiple brand at same time?for your info. we are only working on m1000 for now and we are on this project for 9 months FULL TIME now(in fact we start m8 2010 last week of february)(and not finish...) for your information,we are buying our own sleds so we don't mess up customer motors and sleds what we mess is what we drive. we have a hm turbo dragon 2009,iqr-turbo 700 cfi,m1000 turbo cpc(with soon a push turbo kit too). i recently sold my t-nytro to kevin from edmonton and we have taken all measurment to build a vi-pec on it......but decided to go 2 strokes because i eared you guys were working on it.....i don't want to start sh!t on here about the ecu going back to australia for modification( stuff you are not aware of maybe) i have put on the table a lot of $$$ so i will get my own ecu with my own company name and trademark and copyrighted with all of vi-pec reliability and professionalism,with oem connectors and re-pinned to match oem wiring harness.

supraturbo · Feb 14, 2010

pm sent

Lightspd · Feb 14, 2010

I I hope this works out for Sebastion and Sebastion is welcome to call me if he wants. I might be able to help him in some areas and share in the obstacles we had to overcome. I will be more than willing to share some ideas as well. The success of this brand is on the top of my list of priorities. I am not a 2 cycle tuner never even tried so I don't have much to say in how this will all work I am pretty sure you will hit some of the obstacles we ran into.

supraturbo · Feb 14, 2010

pm sent

Lightspd · Feb 14, 2010

No problems all is good tried calling no answer want to make sure you saw this Gino.

Duke · Feb 20, 2010

Lightspd said:
Having been the key player in snowmobile standalone ecu development. You need to tone down the publicity annoucements until you have a finished product.

I have been working with the Yamaha's now for 2 years trying to have an acceptable product. We started out on a dyno but the differance between the dyno room and the mountains is huge. You need to develope your tune for between 0 feet and 9500 feet before this product is going to work for all users. After 2 years we are very close to announcing a complete product that has been tested in the mountains, on the flats, at all different elevations, from -25C to just above 0. I will tell you that you need to spend several weeks out west in the mountains with your box and several different machines. The changes between machines is a huge issue and you can not put total faith in holding your tune together using the auto tune. The autotune in a controlled environment will get you close but by no means is reliable for trusting a multi thousand dollar motor. We also had to play around with fuel distribution due to intake charge distribution between cylinders. We did this by watching EGT per cylinder and adding our corrections which the factory did already in their calibration. Mapping the engine using speed density is sort of OK with a multi throttle body setup but at altitude is not acceptable and will result in a cylinder going lean underboost during slight decel. You can run in a closed loop setup when you are lightly cruising but if that is your compensation then as soon as you go wot the correction factor takes too much time to be reliable. I am not sure what your logs are showing but under wot the engine was accelerating at over 370 rpm in 0.02 secs. The people that are interested in this product are doing it for reliability and performance a closed loop system can not do that end of story. The announcement that you are going to have all these machines mapped out is not going to happen overnight you need to first of all do multiple machines not just one of each model and think it is done then these multiple machines need to be tested in multiple environments. It is ok to run some hills out East but making a machine hold together that starts a climb at 4500 feet and pulls to 6500 feet in a matter of minutes is a whole different situation. After you have done this then come back to the forums.

The ECU you are using has the capability it is the tuning that is lacking. I know this because I have been distributing this ECU in Canada longer than anyone. This has been the hardest and most expensive project I have ever worked with. My partner and I are just under 50K in developing our project. Please take the time to test before this gets marketted.

Cam Koole
Lightspeed Innovations

I would have to agree with Cam, be sure you have the system dialed in before attracting too much attention to it. I spent three days riding one of Cams fuel systems on one of the baddest Apex's built and all I can say is WOW, this fuel system is the real deal.

I've been running the RB3 on a turbo Apex for 4 seasons, it is a great piggy back system but its reputation has been tarnished by tuners that dont know what they are doing. Good Luck :beer;:beer;

Duke

gunnerthesnowman · Feb 23, 2010

AdrenalineAddiction said:
I would have to agree with Cam, be sure you have the system dialed in before attracting too much attention to it. I spent three days riding one of Cams fuel systems on one of the baddest Apex's built and all I can say is WOW, this fuel system is the real deal.

I've been running the RB3 on a turbo Apex for 4 seasons, it is a great piggy back system but its reputation has been tarnished by tuners that dont know what they are doing. Good Luck :beer;:beer;

Duke

Thanks Duke , Glad you liked it , looking forward to go out riding and do another day of tuning with you , its been a long road and i have missed out on alot of riding , well , its time to make it up , lets go to Revey every weekend in March , and some will be long weekends for me .

BigAir · Feb 23, 2010

Supra,

When you have any updates would you mind starting a new thread please.

ACTM7 · Apr 24, 2010

????????????????????

any thing new on this ?

supraturbo · May 9, 2010

as of today, 99% of the work is finish on the m1000 2009. 2 major turbo kit builder are tuned and ready to hit the snow. the shop is too full with cars right now and we are stopping the snowmobile project, we will start back in september the m8 tuning(wich should be a lot easier and 1/3 of the time since same electrical infrastructure.).

will start another thread in september.

sweperformance · Jun 13, 2010

Aftermarket ECU that are locked is not worth $100 for me. Sure if the turbokit is plug and play (like MCX for yamaha 4 strokes) but to be honest, two stroke turbo kits are not there yet. Would not accept a locked ECU for my turbokit.

BigAir · Jun 14, 2010

Supra,

Please start a new thread so us non-paying members can read your updates. Hopefully the money I save not paying for snowest will help me afford one of your ecus.

Boyko · Jun 14, 2010

This is a neat project, the developer says he has over 100,000.00 into. If it does what it is claimed to do it should really drop some jaws. It is cool someone would spend the time and coin on what the 2-smoker turbo industry needs.

Sorry I am skeptical on this one. I know there are going to be some saying that you should not slam new technology, in fact I welcome it. I just have not see any proof of this unit, no one else has come online to brag it up, it was going to be tested in the mountains and I have not heard any reports on it, maybe I missed something. So there is just one person posting on it that I know of.

This is the biggest problem, 2-strokes combustion chamber is a extremely harsh environment, there is not a lot of room for error……… not like a four stroke, lots of room there for poor tuning just don’t deto it.

Look at the environment changes you have to have mapped. 0 to 12000 feet and a 60c degree temp change huge changes in air density.

My take on it is that it can not be a closed loop system because wideband sensors don’t like 2-strokes or leaded race fuel (maybe they are incorporating one). As far as I know there is no mass airflow sensor (not that it works well on a boosted application anyway), so the ecu is blind to the amount of air the motor is pumping, that is ok normally aspirated sleds can work this way, toss some boost to it and it is way harder to set up all the maps.

Please lets here from someone else on this that has hands on experance with it.

mynewuseddoo · Jul 19, 2010

My Cummins had a mass air flow sensor and it has a turbo and seemed to run just great..........strange??????

Supra we have obviously got a ton of experts that know nothing about what exactly you have been doing to build this project. They have all got an opinion and haven't even spend a second in your shop to physicaly see anything that has happend and the results of you work. I've said it before, if its not complete and running on the snow with customers then the "experts" will come out of the wood work to tell you why it can't be done.

Let's go back a few years "experts"..... Turbo 2 stroke!!! You would have to be a complete retard to think those would work in a 2 stroke application and I will tell you why bla bla bla bla....... Who has a turbo 2 stroke that runs great? Anybody?

Supra, get your units on the snow this winter and lets see these bad boys run. If they can do what you claim then the next evolution in turbo technology is fast approaching.

P.S. I may have some jets laying around if some of the nay sayers need to change jets while they are on their way up the mountain.....because altitude compensating carbs will never work, and fuel injection!!! You must be out of your damn mind!!!! LOL!!!

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