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Asking for riders' input about winter non-motorized areas (PART 8)

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winter brew

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WMC is asking for a small part- the less desirable snowmobile riding terrain- for winter non-motorized designation as a compromise discussion. An example from California-

Skiers, Snowshoers Win Permanent Access at Tahoe Meadows
FOREST SERVICE ORDER PROTECTS HIGH-USE AREA FOR HUMAN-POWERED SPORTS

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
August 8, 2002

(CARSON CITY, Nev.) — In a significant victory for backcountry skiers and snowshoers in the Reno-Lake Tahoe area, the U.S. Forest Service has made permanent its policy setting aside a large tract of prime recreation lands above Lake Tahoe for human-powered recreationists.

Carson District Ranger Gary Schiff of the Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest signed the order July 29, resolving for now the dispute over increasing snowmobile use of the popular Tahoe Meadows recreation area. The long-awaited order came after the Reno-based Coalition for Safe and Appropriate Winter Sports (CSAWS), convinced the Forest Service to deal with the growing snowmobile problem on the Carson Range.

The Humboldt-Toiyabe was in the process of updating its 16-year-old management plan when it agreed to consider the overwhelming public comments demanding the USFS address worsening conflicts between skiers and snowmobilers.

Over two years, 2,500 comments poured into the Forest Service's Carson District office. Most urged the crackdown on snowmobiles, which have been squeezing skiers and snowshoers out of their traditional recreation area near the Mount Rose summit above the Tahoe Basin.

CSAWS President Gail Ferrell said her small group reviewed each of the public comments. An overwhelming percentage wanted snowmobile use sharply curtailed. Many agreed with CSAWS that the machines have become such nuisances and safety threats that they should be banned from the entire four-square mile area.
"At some point, they have to understand the human point of view," Ferrell said of federal land managers. She said CSAWS volunteers been tracking vehicles parked alongside the Tahoe Meadows recreation area, and on average more than 90 percent of them brought skiers, snowshoers, sledders and other human-powered users to the meadows.
"In the past, there were by far more pedestrian users," Ferrell said. "In the last six years the population's been growing here, and there were just more and more snowmobilers, and their behavior has gotten worse and worse. Their argument is that it's a family sport, but on any given day, at least half of the snowmobilers were violating the trespass."...

"Shared use doesn't work, and by permanently preserving Tahoe Meadows for the quiet, pristine experience skiers and snowshoers seek, the Forest Service is acknowledging that motorized and non-motorized recreation need to be separated," Grimes said. "Winter Wildlands applauds the Forest Service's decision and looks forward to using Tahoe Meadows as an example and model for the dozens of other locations around the country where skiers seek a peaceful, safe, and healthy experience on their snow-covered public lands."
Snowmobilers seemed resigned to the permanent restrictions on where they can operate after the Forest Service made it clear it would act to separate machines from the skiers.
"It's better than nothing," Greg McKay of the Mount Rose Snowmobile Alliance told the Reno Gazette-Journal. "We lost quite a bit, but it's better than a total prohibition." The newspaper quoted Schiff as saying he believed the order represents "a decision everybody can live with. It's one of those situations where there's no easy 'right' answer."
Besides reducing the area open to snowmobiles, the order prohibits the machines on snow less than 12 inches deep. CSAWS had documented cases where snowmobiles were running on little snow cover, causing serious and long-lasting damage to forest resources.
...


This is EXACTLY what has already occured several times in Wa. It's called Wilderness.
If access is the problem, then address the problem....don't ignore the existing areas set aside for your use and and try to take away even more from the others users that cannot use that designated Wilderness.
I'm thinking (and correct me if I'm wrong) that WMC simply wants sleds out of the area that is convenient and close to where they live and where they have skied for decades.....and if it's so terrible, why do you continue to ski there?.....because it's close to home??
 

ruffryder

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I believe the number established by ruffryder is 40% Wilderness in the Forest. That leaves 60%. WMC is asking for a few percent in collaboration to perhaps 8% in all-or-nothing competition of the non-Wilderness in the County to set aside for designated winter non-motorized use.
Please stop assuming that snowmobilers ride on 60 % of the rest of the national forests.. not true.

Also, it is tiring the constant statements of having to have 12k machines... I like the attempt to make snowmobilers sound elitist and upper crust while the "poor" skiers trying to fend for themselves. Most people I ride with only have 6k in their sleds. It isn't about the sleds, it is about the people riding them.
 

winter brew

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Of the available area to sledders, I would make a wild-a$$ guess that less than 5% is routinely used.
At least 90% of weekend sledders are mostly using the "popular" areas....it's not like they are evenly dispursed throughout the national forest. Look at Gold Creek and Salmonlasac alone.....probably 3/4 of the sledders in western Wa are there every weekend....a VERY small % of what's available for all to use.
 
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deepdiver

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Anybody who is not a member please join.

http://www.snowmobile-alliance.org/

There is info on how to donate on the site. It can be done online with visa, paypal etc.

I just sent in 50.00...lets get the ball rolling guys!
Time for all good men to come together and focus thru SAWS. They could use some of our spare change and dollars. It is a not for profit 501K org. so anything donated is tax deductable.

Cheers
 
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newtrout

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The second most important thing we can do is write the USFS. Take 5 minutes to put together an original email supporting continued snowmobile use on public land. Groups like WMC are great at getting support from people who will never set foot in this area. We don't have that luxury, and we all need to step up.
 

mountainhorse

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I'm trying to work out the glitches with Admin that will allow all of the land use threads to have unlimited viewing / posting in this section.

In the meantime... I'm starting this new thread and moving a couple of posts here from part 7 that are not able to be read.

MH.
 
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deepdiver

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Washington has a total of 4,423,676 acres of designated wilderness

Washington only has 42,612,480 acers of land, of that 22 million acers are forested....that is half the state!!

There are 4,423,676 acers of Wilderness with another 22,000 waiting for Senate approval.

If backcountry skiers need more terrain without snowmobiles, the logical solution is to snowplow existing roads that provide closer access to legal wilderness areas, and to build a few more roads and trailheads that access Wilderness boundaries. Keep such access open in winter and we will automatically have all the non-motorized terrain we could ever ask for.

Sure, in some areas you can still hear a snowmobile, but overall we have a huge tract of prime backcountry around us. More than is even utilized.
Most importantly, demographics show an aging population with most of our population growth coming from other cultures that don't participate heavily in outdoor recreation, especially in the Winter! Thus, implementing extreme restrictions based on guesses about future growth could well be unnecessary. Certainly we must be conservative when caring for creation, but there is a difference between conservatism and fanaticism.

As a photographer, maybe backcountry skiing should be banned from the wilderness as the tracks ruin the pristine beauty. Backcountry ski tracks might make life hard for Lynx..hmmm theres a thought.

Avoid clubs or political groups and people that bicker with, and want to limit other user groups. Be wary of groups like WMC that call attention to user "conflicts" to further their agendas of use restrictions. People can get along, and emphasizing their differences is nothing less than exploitation. Most of all be willing to share. Backcountry skiers should stop feeling superior because they use blood sugar instead of gasoline. Snowmobilers should drive with courtesy.

Any multi-use group worth it's tires or boot rubber--or steel edges--should have no problem sharing.
But the underlying philosophy of most land management should value human recreation in the equation. In most cases, we should only restrict recreation when it causes massive, irreversible damage -- not a bit of trail erosion, a tent visible by a lake, or even one group being seen by another.

Regarding plowed winter roads: Many in the anti-motor lobby are well aware and quick to point out that the occasional snowmobiler rides on legal wilderness land. This is no secret.

Frankly, I'm not highly concered about this (though I'd like it to stop), as I'm certain most of these riders are unclear about the Wilderness boundary, and the places they ride are usually quite close to the highway. But if you dislike snowmobiles, and dislike plowed roads, and your life is ruined if you find out about a snowmobile in legal wilderness, consider this: If a road was plowed in winter, and muscle powered users were entering legal wilderness from trailheads on this road, snowmobilers would not be riding in that same wilderness. Thus, plowing a road would enhance wilderness values for the BC Skiiers and others.

Sometimes life is messy, and workable solutions are not pretty. Roads are not evil. Roads have a place, and there is more to roads than meets your tires. Plowing just a few more winter roads to a few more trailheads would cause a marked reduction in crowding of existing trailheads, and could actually enhance wilderness values.

Backcountry skiing is actually on the decline, the reasons for the decline are many. Backcountry ski sales (especially Telemarking) have been plunging 23% per year for the last few years. There has been an increase in backcountry snowboarders, but they typically dont whine as much.
The fact is, when an enviro fanatic whines about the crowded wilderness, or the need for more wilderness so that skiiers have more room, their whine flies in the face of the facts. I see this trend continuing. Our population is aging rapidly, and all increase of our population is coming from cultures that don't include skiing in their recreation value systems.

Special Thanks to Louis in Colorado for some of these responses and ideas.
 
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ruffryder

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Excellent point deep diver. I have heard from other people that the ski industry is getting worried about this issue. Kids aren't going to ski resorts like they used to, and people would rather stay at home on the computer then go out and ski.

Probably something to mention with our letters.

Anyone have any detailed facts with this? It would be great to quote something.

I will do some checking.
 
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deepdiver

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Hey ruffy..you can look at industry sales data. Thats where I got the info of the 23% decline in sales of backcountry ski equipment for the past 3 years. I grew up in Colorado, lived in the mountains of California, now washington and Backcountry skiing has never been a big interest drawer. It does seem to be a bit more popular in Washington. There must be more granola here or something.

There has been stagnation in the ski retail industry, with equipment sales down 3 percent by dollars and 9 percent by units in the western United States, said Kelly Davis, research director for trade group SnowSports Industries America. Backcountry ski sales down 23 % over the past few years.

Just try getting a youth from the snowboard society to go backcountry skiing. Good Luck. granted there are a few that do BC snowbaording but that doesnt keep an industry alive. The snowboarders that BC seem to have a bit more "cajones" and dont whine either. Most times I have went to Bear Paw the Snowbaorders were also at the front of the parking, ie first tracks.

Personally WMC don’t care whether you’re a “gay on a tray” or a “two stick prick”. Public land is public land! Just enjoy the snow you have been blessed with and be thankful you are not living in Florida. There are a lot more important things to focus your attention and mental energies on than a land grab. I have better things to do than defend land also, but you dont give me a lot of options.

Today, we are all just in it for the snow so get over it. WMC..if you want an area close to the road and mostly to yourself..try Cougar Gulch. You can take off from the top of Table Mountain or the Lion Rock area. Tons of untracked areas in Cougar gulch. You have parking at Swak at your disposal. There is more terrain than any 50 skiiers could utilize in a month. There are seldom snowmobiles down there as access is limited. Granted you can drop in from the top by the view point but typically very few ever go down there. The Sled riding isnt worth the climb back out. WMC..you only need to look around you and open your eyes and you will see how much beauty you have been blessed with. Please quit complaining when ice cream is served to you cold. Be thankful for what you have and quit wanting to covet what you dont have. Dont be jealous of what someone else has that you dont, and dont try to find ways covertly and decietfuly to get something for yourself at the cost of someone elses enjoyment. Crapola I am sounding like an old parent..if you were my child I would be asshamed of you for your greedy tactics.
 
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WMC

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Please stop assuming that snowmobilers ride on 60 % of the rest of the national forests.. not true.

Also, it is tiring the constant statements of having to have 12k machines... I like the attempt to make snowmobilers sound elitist and upper crust while the "poor" skiers trying to fend for themselves. Most people I ride with only have 6k in their sleds. It isn't about the sleds, it is about the people riding them.

In the area of the WMC proposal there is not much terrain that is not tracked by snowmobiles.

The guy who sells snowmobiles mentioned the 12K price, which is current. One of our associates rides a $9k Ski Doo and does not ride a lot off-road.

Anyone who goes to a Sno Park sees the expensive machines, trailers and tow rigs.
 
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WMC

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The second most important thing we can do is write the USFS. Take 5 minutes to put together an original email supporting continued snowmobile use on public land. Groups like WMC are great at getting support from people who will never set foot in this area. We don't have that luxury, and we all need to step up.

It seems easy to organize snowmobile riders around a simple concept. that concept is:

No. We will not share. If you do not let us snowmobile everywhere, we will talk tough with bad words. Anybody who does not want snowmobiles ridden anywhere is an 'environmentalist, tree-hugger, leaf licker, democrat, liberal, and etc.' Wilderness is evil and skiers are to blame! Skiers love to ski where we are riding. These things were learned here.

Thank you.
 
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WMC

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Of the available area to sledders, I would make a wild-a$$ guess that less than 5% is routinely used.
At least 90% of weekend sledders are mostly using the "popular" areas....it's not like they are evenly dispursed throughout the national forest. Look at Gold Creek and Salmonlasac alone.....probably 3/4 of the sledders in western Wa are there every weekend....a VERY small % of what's available for all to use.

This is fascinating! What of the many past posts about snowmobilers not having enough riding, about losing their riding?

Only 5% available area for snowmobiling is used? And the discussion here does not support ANY areas designated for skiers, snowshoers and winter campers!
 

ruffryder

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In the area of the WMC proposal there is not much terrain that is not tracked by snowmobiles.
That is a lie. I have ridden those areas on my sled, and I also snowboard. For every line taken by a snowmobile there are TONS for non-motorized use, normally better ones.

The guy who sells snowmobiles mentioned the 12K price, which is current. One of our associates rides a $9k Ski Doo and does not ride a lot off-road.

Anyone who goes to a Sno Park sees the expensive machines, trailers and tow rigs.
The guy who sells snowmobiles? What are you talking about? $9k skidoo and doesn't ride off-road a lot? I ride with people that have 4k into their sleds. They do just fine. So no what you "have to have 12k for a snowmobile" talk is busted, you move on to tow vehicles and trailers? What does cost have to do with the justification of any of your proposal?

WMC, your inability to talk the truth on these and many issues makes any further discussion with you pointless. It is a shame.
 

ruffryder

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It seems easy to organize snowmobile riders around a simple concept. that concept is:

No. We will not share. If you do not let us snowmobile everywhere, we will talk tough with bad words. Anybody who does not want snowmobiles ridden anywhere is an 'environmentalist, tree-hugger, leaf licker, democrat, liberal, and etc.' Wilderness is evil and skiers are to blame! Skiers love to ski where we are riding. These things were learned here.

Thank you.

More lies from the WMC. That is not the concept. You continually fail to read and acknowledge snowmobilers that are courteous to non-motorized users and that share the slopes with many different users in a successful manor.

Your continued painting of snowmobilers as in the above quote is disgusting. It is easy to see the WMC is only interested in reaffirming their beliefs of snowmobilers, instead of listening to what they have to say.
 
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WMC

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More lies from the WMC. That is not the concept. You continually fail to read and acknowledge snowmobilers that are courteous to non-motorized users and that share the slopes with many different users in a successful manor.

Your continued painting of snowmobilers as in the above quote is disgusting. It is easy to see the WMC is only interested in reaffirming their beliefs of snowmobilers, instead of listening to what they have to say.

WMC (poster here) is a snowmobile rider and owner of three snowmobiles. Nothing is being painted, just paraphrasing snowmobile Forum commments.
 

ruffryder

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WMC (poster here) is a snowmobile rider and owner of three snowmobiles. Nothing is being painted, just paraphrasing snowmobile Forum commments.
No you are lying and is disrespectful to those that have made countless posts about going out of their way to be courteous and to share with non-motorized users.
 
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WMC

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No you are lying and is disrespectful to those that have made countless posts about going out of their way to be courteous and to share with non-motorized users.

It is more productive to discuss the issue. When one just substitutes name calling and disparagement for debate, nothing is gained on either side.

As far as sharing, it has been discussed. My friends and I have been out on slopes skiing early, first tracks, then snowmobiles arrive and track it all up in front of us. The snowmobiles are doing nothing wrong, just having fun (as long as they do not endanger others). So the point is, we ask for some areas designated non-motorized, a small part of the total and asking to discuss, compromise, collaborate for a solution. the alternative is that we just argue and oppose, all-or-nothing competition. So far so, some here seem to suggest that skiers compromise by just staying ot of the way of snowmobiles and then just ski in your exhaust fumes and trenches. And many just cannot get over Wilderness, and blame skiers, when the reality is that Wilderness is mostly not accessible for pedestrians in winter.

Discussion, compromise, collaboration is preferable. WMC continues the discussion to see if we may get together to discuss these issues.
 

ruffryder

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It is more productive to discuss the issue. When one just substitutes name calling and disparagement for debate, nothing is gained on either side.

Meaningful discussion can not happen without honesty and truth. These are things the WMC needs to think about when posting. Continuing to lie and misrepresent the issues does nothing for anyone. Please stop it.
 
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WMC

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WMC has meet with one snowmobile-industry-person, our first meeting outside of WMC. We have consistently asked to meet with snowmobile enthusiasts from this Forum, emailed Officers of WSSA and SAWS to ask to meet to discuss issues. No response.

Below is copied part of the rebuttal sent to the Forest Supervisor, written by the Stevens Pass Ski Area Marketing Director and forwarded by him to WSSA Officers-

(quote)
· “We form partnerships to achieve shared goals.” – Without a public meeting or involvement from the snowmobile and crossover community (of which I consider backcountry skiers who legally utilize snowmobiles) we cannot hope to achieve the healthy public discourse that leads to the formation of partnerships to achieve shared goals.
· “We follow laws, regulations, executive direction, and congressional intent.” – current snowmobile regulation has been sufficient to satisfy the needs of many winter recreation user groups for a number of years. User recreation precedent establishes that a purpose and need for regulatory change must be defined in cooperation with all user groups involved. Given the single sided approach pursued by the Wenatchee Mountains Coalition thus far, little respect has been paid to the established legal process on which our public land usage regulations are founded.
(end quote)

WMC has secured a meeting place offer by a person from within the snowmobile industry who will host a meeting. At this time, the "single-sided approach" is the situation on the snowmobile side, however WMC has diligently worked to include all sides in the discussion, debate, and proposed meeting. It is time for snowmobile interests and Organizations to step up as citizens and meet with other citizens with other Forest uses and discuss, debate, collaborate rather than the boilerplate "single-sided approach."
 

ruffryder

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WMC, according to your own quote, you are the one being "one-sided"
 
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