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Asking for riders' input about winter non-motorized areas (PART 7)

W

WMC

Banned
Apr 27, 2010
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When I am out riding and see snowboarders or skiers on a hill (VERY rare have I seen skiers, and only an occasional snowboarder who also has a sled).....I will leave that area to them and go elsewhere. I can be to the next hill in minutes. This is just common courtesy IMO.
As for sleds rutting/tracking up the hills making them un-skiable.....well, it snows quite often in Wa. Rarely more than a couple days before ALL areas are once again pristine and smooth after being tracked up (by sledders OR skiers). I have also faced disapointment MANY times, coming to my favorite areas and someone has beat me to first marks and making the terrain undesirable for my use....Should I demand changes in policy so this doesn't happen? Or should I just try again in a few days after it snows? Or perhaps get out of bed earlier to get first dibs??

That is great, if snowmobile riders shared slopes as you say, there would be less of an argument here. In the past, snowmobiles were not capable of tracking it all, so there was always something left, but not now, as you riders well know! Even nice folks have the lawful right and do track up slopes in front of me and my friends- there is nothing to compel sharing. We need separate winter non-motorized areas, and relatively small areas will accommodate a lot of ski touring.

It is quite effortless to ride away and go somewhere else, a skier or snowshoer usually invests a day getting somewhere, if snowmobiles use the area first too bad.

Thanks.
 
D

deepdiver

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2003
936
316
63
Marysville, WA
Dave,
Ruffy was only noting what Newtrout said in his disagreement of the joke I made after snomobilers funny post. With the type of stuff WMC is doing obviously they have no respect for snowmobilers.

It was not much different than you reprimanding Ruffy. I will tell you that Ruffy has never lost his friends trailer ramp!! You will never here the end of that one :>)))))

None the less we should all keep focused on getting rid of or finding a way to fight off, so to speak the likes of WMC. his greed is way worse than I thought. We need to start looking at a plan to fight off WMC's ideas if they go to fruition. I would agree with Rob Yammdoggie...that we should limit or not communicate with WMC. The more he knows the better he can plan his attack.

I dont have any respect for that type of individual. I will tell him way more if I ever have the chance to see him or her whatever it is, in person. With that in mind I will laugh at jokes about him and donate a few myself. If I didnt I would get so pissed that it wouldnt be very pretty. Sort of a venting thing..

NewTrout..dont for a second think that WMC or Rondondee have any respect for snowmobilers..I dont just mean someone that owns one but those that live it and love it. They have more than proved that and I think you have seen that as well by now. Polite he may be, but that doesnt mean respect. If he had any respect he wouldnt be trying to do a land grab.

Now he wants Haney medows also? That isnt skiable terrain..pretty darn flat. It is however a great place for someones wife or children to practice their sled skills. Snowmobilers need more than just steep and deep at times.

WMC as far as Haney goes...thats not an option. I say flat out NO to that one for sure!!



Ruffy, you're out of line taking a shot at Newtrout. You didn't take part in giving WMC any publicity? If you're on our side, then it's time to quit with the semantics, man up and get on board for real. If not, then step off!!!


Let's consider the publicity thing for a minute. How can you argue the success he's had? Everyone arguing the same thing for the last what... month and a half?



He's gotten 20 times the publicity than he would've recieved had people who can't handle typing the last word and arguing both sides at times seen this for what he was really trying to accomplish. I did say this in the very beginning (the publicity thing). Ruffy seems to have some issue with this. OK. Nobody bothered to listen to CLE ELEM SLEDHEAD, not even me. Seemed to be what he said also.

He even got sledders arguing semantics between themselves even. :hurt:

Brilliant on his part. Absolutely....Brilliant!!!
 
W

WMC

Banned
Apr 27, 2010
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Snowmobiles have Naneum Meadow, with more fun terrain, and all of the cliff and open slopes to Lion Rock and beyond. Sure, got your point, it would just end all of the fun if skiers had Haney Meadow and Mount Lillian for quiet camping, nordic skiing, snowshoeing. Many of snowmobiler statements apply to non-motorized users. My child likes to go to the mellow places to ski areas such as Haney Meadow and Mt Lillian. Keep taking from that larger group non-motorized users, have no-compromise or consideration or sharing, we will see what comes in the future. Maybe deepdiver can just shut them all up with foul 6th Grade language- great plan (not).

As far as Yammadog knowing what is up with WMC, we are quite transparent as to our intention. We will do as you folks do and go after it all, or we would rather try to discuss, collaborate, try to find any common ground or compromise in a way we both groups can live with.

My experience is that the foulest talk here is not as strong as what I hear from many non-motorized Forest users in regard to snowmobiles. As I say, face-to-face snowmobile riders are just normal good folks in my experience, but your rep in the majority of the population is not so great. WMC is one non-motorized advocate here saying let us talk, collaborate, saying that snowmobile riding is a legitimate Forest use. Snowmobilers could have a shot at creating goodwill, or could just continue to be tough, non-compromising, just keep lifting that middle finger and see how long that stands when the thus far quiet majority of Forest users becomes aroused.

Thanks for discussion.


Dave,
Ruffy was only noting what Newtrout said in his disagreement of the joke I made after snomobilers funny post. With the type of stuff WMC is doing obviously they have no respect for snowmobilers.

It was not much different than you reprimanding Ruffy. I will tell you that Ruffy has never lost his friends trailer ramp!! You will never here the end of that one :>)))))

None the less we should all keep focused on getting rid of or finding a way to fight off, so to speak the likes of WMC. his greed is way worse than I thought. We need to start looking at a plan to fight off WMC's ideas if they go to fruition. I would agree with Rob Yammdoggie...that we should limit or not communicate with WMC. The more he knows the better he can plan his attack.

I dont have any respect for that type of individual. I will tell him way more if I ever have the chance to see him or her whatever it is, in person. With that in mind I will laugh at jokes about him and donate a few myself. If I didnt I would get so pissed that it wouldnt be very pretty. Sort of a venting thing..

NewTrout..dont for a second think that WMC or Rondondee have any respect for snowmobilers..I dont just mean someone that owns one but those that live it and love it. They have more than proved that and I think you have seen that as well by now. Polite he may be, but that doesnt mean respect. If he had any respect he wouldnt be trying to do a land grab.

Now he wants Haney medows also? That isnt skiable terrain..pretty darn flat. It is however a great place for someones wife or children to practice their sled skills. Snowmobilers need more than just steep and deep at times.

WMC as far as Haney goes...thats not an option. I say flat out NO to that one for sure!!
 

diamonddave

Chilly’s Mentor
Lifetime Membership
Apr 5, 2006
5,577
3,890
113
Wokeville, WA.
Dave,
Ruffy was only noting what Newtrout said in his disagreement of the joke I made after snomobilers funny post. With the type of stuff WMC is doing obviously they have no respect for snowmobilers.

It was not much different than you reprimanding Ruffy. I will tell you that Ruffy has never lost his friends trailer ramp!! You will never here the end of that one :>)))))

Newtrout simply highlited someone elses quote of the publicity from Randonee creating more traffic on the discussed areas. I think he mistakingly accused Newtrout for what is in my avitar.

coming from the guy who said that "your only giving WMC what he wants, publicity" too..

I just don't like inaccurate accusations or other people blamed for what I doo. He quoted my avitar. Blast me. Not someone else.

But remember, I replaced the ramp before that next weekend and paid overnight shipping so it would be here by the following weekend. The trailer hasn't been used since that day. Someone was nice enough to leave it at the bottom of the mountain. Someone else was nice enough to take it.

Never seen one of those kind of clamps break. Bought a new deck the next week.
 
H
Apr 16, 2008
35
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washington
Once again WMC/Randonee you are painting a false picture of the ridge between Earl and Three Brothers. It is not the tracked out junk show of sleds and ruts you describe (we'll see how long it stays that way, thanks to you...) There is ample good skiing on nearly every slope/aspect on Navajo, Earl, Three Brothers, and Miller any day of the week during the winter. Sun crust, wind slabs, and hoar layers are a far bigger concern and deterrent to certain slopes/aspects than any sled tracks. Just because you choose or are unable to ski the untracked terrain do not fault snowmobilers. Often, the sled tracks offer a more efficient skin track and during the week there are often no tracks at all. Like I said previously, I ski there frequently and know this to be a fact. Please call a spade a spade...

You are not looking for a "compromise" you are looking for your own personal playground by soliciting the support of people who have and will never visit the area in question. They simply jump on the anti-snowmobile tirade to support the ever popular (and for the most part, contrived) "green" movement.

As newtrout stated, the only legitimate issue is sleds crossing the wilderness boundary. Which again, isn't the huge festering epidemic WMC/Randonee describes.
 

ruffryder

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Aug 14, 2002
8,468
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holy crap storm... I guess I confused diamond dave and deep diver again. One of you guys needs to change your names so I can keep you straight!

I incorrectly made the statement thinking it was deep diver, as my comment I thought used to be his sig. It is not, it is diamond dave's sig and my comment might of maid sense if diamond dave would have said what deep diver said....

Ruffy, you're out of line taking a shot at Newtrout. You didn't take part in giving WMC any publicity?
I was trying to take a shot at deep diver, who I mistakenly thought was your or had your signature. I thought it was ironic. Now I know I was just being moronic. What can I say, I am in the midwest now... cue banjo music...

\think he mistakingly accused Newtrout for what is in my avitar.

I just don't like inaccurate accusations or other people blamed for what I doo. He quoted my avitar. Blast me. Not someone else.
I was agreeing with Newtrout, and quoting your avitar as something I thought deepdiver had in his.. I was mistaken.

I should have just said "well said" to newtrouts comment.. seemed it would have been a lot easier on everyone..lol
 
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W

WMC

Banned
Apr 27, 2010
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Thanks for taking the time to make thoughtful comment. We agree that the Wilderness snowmobile trespass problem is an important issue. We do not agree that snowmobiles and skiers, snowshoers, and winter campers are compatible in the same area. Skiers, snowshoers, and winter campers need new and significant winter non-motorized areas along the pristine Wenatchee Mountains crest.

Once again WMC/Randonee you are painting a false picture of the ridge between Earl and Three Brothers. It is not the tracked out junk show of sleds and ruts you describe (we'll see how long it stays that way, thanks to you...) There is ample good skiing on nearly every slope/aspect on Navajo, Earl, Three Brothers, and Miller any day of the week during the winter. Sun crust, wind slabs, and hoar layers are a far bigger concern and deterrent to certain slopes/aspects than any sled tracks. Just because you choose or are unable to ski the untracked terrain do not fault snowmobilers. Often, the sled tracks offer a more efficient skin track and during the week there are often no tracks at all. Like I said previously, I ski there frequently and know this to be a fact. Please call a spade a spade...

You are not looking for a "compromise" you are looking for your own personal playground by soliciting the support of people who have and will never visit the area in question. They simply jump on the anti-snowmobile tirade to support the ever popular (and for the most part, contrived) "green" movement.

As newtrout stated, the only legitimate issue is sleds crossing the wilderness boundary. Which again, isn't the huge festering epidemic WMC/Randonee describes.
 

ruffryder

Well-known member
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Aug 14, 2002
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We do not agree that snowmobiles and skiers, snowshoers, and winter campers are compatible in the same area.
Why is it that when you are given peoples first hand knowledge about the area, their first hand experiences in the area, on and off the snowmobiles, and that there is a lack of any incompatibility, that your only response is "we don't believe they are compatible"?
 
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W

WMC

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Apr 27, 2010
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Why is it that when you are given peoples first hand knowledge about the area, their first hand experiences in the area, on and off the snowmobiles, and that there is a lack of any incompatibility, that your only response is "we don't believe they are compatible"?

I started skiing these areas 26 years ago. My partner in WMC was in there in the early 1970s. We have first hand experience.

The sound of a snowmobile is heard from a distance of one to several miles depending on conditions. Do those arguing here in summer seek out hiking where there will be a lot of motorized traffic (no)?

There is more to the experience than just skiing on untracked portions in the midst of snowmobiles. Again, (an artificial example for discussion) consider would snowmobile riders think it compatible if hundreds of skiers showed up regularly on the best high-marking terrain? I think not.

WMC asks to consider even the less desirable snowmobile riding areas to be designated for winter non-motorized use. Sharing here perhaps is defined as "out of my way, I am riding through?"

Thanks.
 
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W

WMC

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Apr 27, 2010
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"We lost quite a bit, but it's better than a total prohibition."

WMC is asking for a small part- the less desirable snowmobile riding terrain- for winter non-motorized designation as a compromise discussion. An example from California-

Skiers, Snowshoers Win Permanent Access at Tahoe Meadows
FOREST SERVICE ORDER PROTECTS HIGH-USE AREA FOR HUMAN-POWERED SPORTS

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
August 8, 2002

(CARSON CITY, Nev.) — In a significant victory for backcountry skiers and snowshoers in the Reno-Lake Tahoe area, the U.S. Forest Service has made permanent its policy setting aside a large tract of prime recreation lands above Lake Tahoe for human-powered recreationists.

Carson District Ranger Gary Schiff of the Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest signed the order July 29, resolving for now the dispute over increasing snowmobile use of the popular Tahoe Meadows recreation area. The long-awaited order came after the Reno-based Coalition for Safe and Appropriate Winter Sports (CSAWS), convinced the Forest Service to deal with the growing snowmobile problem on the Carson Range.

The Humboldt-Toiyabe was in the process of updating its 16-year-old management plan when it agreed to consider the overwhelming public comments demanding the USFS address worsening conflicts between skiers and snowmobilers.

Over two years, 2,500 comments poured into the Forest Service's Carson District office. Most urged the crackdown on snowmobiles, which have been squeezing skiers and snowshoers out of their traditional recreation area near the Mount Rose summit above the Tahoe Basin.

CSAWS President Gail Ferrell said her small group reviewed each of the public comments. An overwhelming percentage wanted snowmobile use sharply curtailed. Many agreed with CSAWS that the machines have become such nuisances and safety threats that they should be banned from the entire four-square mile area.
"At some point, they have to understand the human point of view," Ferrell said of federal land managers. She said CSAWS volunteers been tracking vehicles parked alongside the Tahoe Meadows recreation area, and on average more than 90 percent of them brought skiers, snowshoers, sledders and other human-powered users to the meadows.
"In the past, there were by far more pedestrian users," Ferrell said. "In the last six years the population's been growing here, and there were just more and more snowmobilers, and their behavior has gotten worse and worse. Their argument is that it's a family sport, but on any given day, at least half of the snowmobilers were violating the trespass."...

"Shared use doesn't work, and by permanently preserving Tahoe Meadows for the quiet, pristine experience skiers and snowshoers seek, the Forest Service is acknowledging that motorized and non-motorized recreation need to be separated," Grimes said. "Winter Wildlands applauds the Forest Service's decision and looks forward to using Tahoe Meadows as an example and model for the dozens of other locations around the country where skiers seek a peaceful, safe, and healthy experience on their snow-covered public lands."
Snowmobilers seemed resigned to the permanent restrictions on where they can operate after the Forest Service made it clear it would act to separate machines from the skiers.
"It's better than nothing," Greg McKay of the Mount Rose Snowmobile Alliance told the Reno Gazette-Journal. "We lost quite a bit, but it's better than a total prohibition." The newspaper quoted Schiff as saying he believed the order represents "a decision everybody can live with. It's one of those situations where there's no easy 'right' answer."
Besides reducing the area open to snowmobiles, the order prohibits the machines on snow less than 12 inches deep. CSAWS had documented cases where snowmobiles were running on little snow cover, causing serious and long-lasting damage to forest resources.
...
 
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ruffryder

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WMC is asking for a small part- the less desirable snowmobile riding terrain- for winter non-motorized designation as a compromise discussion. An example from California-
less desirable riding terrain?

"Shared use doesn't work, and by permanently preserving Tahoe Meadows for the quiet, pristine experience skiers and snowshoers seek, the Forest Service is acknowledging that motorized and non-motorized recreation need to be separated," Grimes said. "Winter Wildlands applauds the Forest Service's decision and looks forward to using Tahoe Meadows as an example and model for the dozens of other locations around the country where skiers seek a peaceful, safe, and healthy experience on their snow-covered public lands."
That is a great quote, unfortunately it comes from Winter Wildlands, who is also a supporter of the WMC proposal.
 
W

WMC

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Apr 27, 2010
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A successful example: "Peace in the Backcountry"

Peace in the Backcountry
http://www.svguide.com/svgwinter10/W10/peaceinthebackcountry.html

A decade into existence, a collaborative agreement between skiers
and snowmobilers in the Wood River Valley stands the test of time and inspires others.
By Jason D.B. Kauffman
Photo by Mark Oliver

For 15 years the Boulder Yurts had beckoned countless backcountry skiers into the magnificent mountains north of Ketchum. On April 2, 2000, the yurts burned to the ground. Gone were the Mongolian-style refuges from wild and bitter winter weather. In their place were two charred circles in the snow, filled with fragments of smoldering wood and unrecognizable blackened lumps.

What was recognizable were two snowmobile tracks leading to the site. Conspiracy theories linking the destruction to the tracks and the people who laid them immediately began making the rounds among backcountry skiers. Investigations by the Blaine County Sheriff’s Office determined that the fire was caused by arson. However, because no footprints were found between the snowmobile tracks and yurts, they discounted the theory that the arsonists rode in on snowmobiles.

To this day, no one has discovered who ignited the fire.

The timing of the blaze couldn’t have been worse. Since 1995, a group of local skiers and snowmobilers known as the Winter Recreation Coalition had been trying to work together to find a solution to dispel rising tensions between skiers and snowmobilers recreating in the northern half of the Wood River Valley. Bob Jonas of Sun Valley Trekking, then-owner of the yurts, told the Idaho Mountain Express newspaper that before the blaze, tensions had been a 3 or 4 out of 10. “Now it’s a 10,” he said.

Rebuilding the yurts was relatively easy. The strained motorized-vs.-non-motorized relationship was more difficult to repair.
For skiers, perhaps no other spot was more sacred or worth fighting over than the series of high, secluded bowls in the rugged Boulder Mountains above Galena Lodge. Guarded by jagged peaks, this rugged patch of high-country-powder-lover’s paradise had always been the exclusive playground of skiers, and they weren’t about to let that change.

“It’s just a very quiet, very peaceful, very wild feeling,” said Andy Munter, owner of Backwoods Mountain Sports in Ketchum, of skiing the area.

At least it was until snowmobilers, on increasingly powerful machines, began gaining entry to the bowls. Until then, only a gentlemen’s agreement had kept the motorized snow-seekers from punching routes into the area.
Munter, a member of the Winter Recreation Coalition, said the sight of a group of daring snowmobilers riding almost to the summit of rugged Gladiator Peak was a wake-up call for the local backcountry ski crowd.

With tensions running high, the coalition did not have an easy task. Its biggest obstacle was trust. Skiers didn’t trust or like snowmobilers, and vice-versa. Ed Cannady, the Forest Service representative during the talks, recalls that both sides were guilty of poor behavior. Snowmobilers reported being cursed at and having ski poles swung at them as they rode by. Likewise, skiers complained that snowmobilers made a point of cutting across popular powder runs loved by skiers.

Munter told the Idaho Mountain Express in April 2000 that the coalition (comprised of snowmobilers Bill DeMun, Chris Klick, Kim Nilsen, Owen Downard and Nancy Monk, and skiers Jack Haase, Andy Munter, Kathie Rivers, Jim McClatchy and John Craig) was having communication problems and that relentless bickering had prevented any real work from being accomplished. “We’re not even close,” he said, adding that the group had barely passed the handshake stage.

Adding urgency to the coalition’s task was a stark message from Sawtooth National Forest Supervisor Bill LeVere. He had given them until October 1, 2000, to come up with a solution to segregate motorized and non-motorized zones or he would be forced to make a decision himself.

Both sides had come to the table for a variety of reasons. On one side were the snowmobilers who realized that some area closures were imminent and were worried that they would lose their favorite play spots. On the other side, skiers sought some kind of assurance that they could enjoy their time in the hills without encountering the sights or sounds of snowmobiles.

With a metaphorical fire lighted under them, the members of the coalition started to look past their differences (a group excursion to try out the other’s sport was cited as a turning point), spending the next six months hammering out area designations that would cordon off the two uses.

In mid-September, 10 months after it began working in earnest, the coalition presented a first-of-its-kind plan. It divided a 35-mile-long area, stretching from Galena Summit south past Hyndman Peak in the Pioneer Mountains, into a series of designated ski and snowmobile areas. LeVere promptly signed the agreement.

Places that had traditionally been the playground of skiers—including the upper Big Wood drainage to Galena Summit and the foothills of the Boulder Mountains from the lower North Fork of the Big Wood all the way to the Trail Creek drainage—became non-motorized-only areas. Spots that had long attracted snowmobilers looking for steep, remote and challenging terrain—the vast Baker Creek drainage in the westward Smoky Mountains and the Silver, Easley and Boulder creek areas—became designated snowmobile areas.

Today, both skiers and snowmobilers agree that the winter-use agreement, approaching its 10-year anniversary, has been remarkably successful. Simply driving by the parking lots for each sport provides a glimpse into this truth. Near Baker Creek, rows of large pickup trucks attached to snowmobile-carrying trailers pervade. Farther up toward Galena Lodge and Galena Summit, it’s mainly the all-wheel-drive Subarus and light Toyota trucks that skiers favor.

Cannady, who is responsible for placing signs each fall advising users of the restrictions as well as enforcing those rules, believes snowmobilers deserve a lot of thanks and recognition for their adherence to the agreement. “We have better compliance than any place I’m aware of in the western United States,” he said.

The agreement even spawned a conservation organization dedicated to the preservation of quiet in the wintertime backcountry: Winter Wildlands Alliance, based in Boise. Staff at the organization has expanded to support similar efforts around the West. “The Wood River Valley agreement is something we hold up as the gold standard,” said Mark Menlove, executive director of the alliance.

Only time will tell if similar winter-use planning efforts being developed in other popular winter sports areas, including Utah and Colorado, end up as successful. Not all have. Menlove points to a collaborative effort his group was involved with three years ago in Franklin Basin in northern Utah’s Logan Canyon. After the two sides agreed to a similar separation of skiers and snowmobilers, the snowmobilers changed their minds, seeking help from their congressman. The resulting political pressure produced a last-minute decision in favor of snowmobile use that reduced by half the skiers’ 9,500-acre designated quiet area. This on a forest where snowmobilers already had access to 550,000 designated acres of winter terrain.

One thing most areas outside the Wood River Valley don’t have going for them is a long and storied history of backcountry skiing. Backcountry skiers were skiing lines on Durrance and other hills north of Ketchum back in the 1930s. The long tradition meant skiers came to the table in a stronger position. That’s just not the case in most other resorts around the West, where snowmobilers often have the political upper hand because of their greater numbers.

According to Wood River Valley snowmobilers, perhaps the greatest success of the local agreement was the dissolving of the hard battle lines that had been drawn in the snow for years. Gone are the venomous back-and-forth letters to the editor in the local newspaper. “It got rid of a lot of the fighting and screaming and cursing,” said Hailey snowmobiler Owen Downard.

Although he does admit to some residual bitterness among snowmobilers—who feel they made many concessions without gaining anything similar from skiers—Downard said at the end of the day the fact that everyone can enjoy the mountains in peace is the mark of success. “We all live here, we’re all neighbors, and we should all get along,” he said.

Violations of the agreement are nearly nonexistent. Both sides have kept talking in the decade since to make sure small-scale conflicts don’t become full-blown battles. More and more, however, it’s snowmobilers and skiers policing themselves. “We’re finding we have less and less to talk about,” Munter said.

The valley’s skiers and snowmobilers, it seems, would rather let their tracks do the talking.

Photo by Craig Wolfram
“We all live here, we’re all neighbors,
and we should all get along.”

Owen Downard
Hailey snowmobiler
...
 

ruffryder

Well-known member
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Aug 14, 2002
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It is a shame those places don't have Wilderness like Washington state does...
 
W

WMC

Banned
Apr 27, 2010
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less desirable riding terrain?


That is a great quote, unfortunately it comes from Winter Wildlands, who is also a supporter of the WMC proposal.

Less desirable terrain as defined here and in a meeting by snowmobile enthusiasts.

True. Of course WWA would support the WMC proposal. Of course SAWS will oppose the WMC proposal. WWA does not tell me what to do, I personally do not support everything from WWA. Does SAWS or WSSA tell all here how to think and what to say?
 
W

WMC

Banned
Apr 27, 2010
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It is a shame those places don't have Wilderness like Washington state does...
Say what?...

Sawtooth Wilderness
The spectacular beauty and solitude of the 217,000 acre Sawtooth Wilderness is experienced by people from all parts of the country. It is considered the "crown jewel" of the Gem State. First protected in 1937 as a "Primative Area," the rugged Sawtooth Wilderness was officially created by Congress in 1972. The Sawtooth Wilderness is exceptional in scenic beauty and is characterized by high granitic peaks and narrow glacial valleys. The Wilderness is comprised of hundeds of jagged peaks, 50 over 10,000 feet in height, with nearly 400 high alpine lakes dotting the predominantly rocky terrain. Also hidden within its boundaries are deep, secluded valleys covered with enormous stands of trees. These mountains hold the headwaters of the North Fork and Middle Fork of the Boise River, the South Fork of the Payette River and contributes significantly to the headwaters of the Salmon River. Nearly 350 miles of trails provide a wide range of routes and many of the high lake basins do not have constructed trails to reach them. The hiking season is short. Alpine wildflowers bring the high meadows alive with color in the months of July and August. An abundant population of wildlife thrives upon the lush, grassy meadows and many species of fish make their home in the thousands of streams that feed the headwaters of four major rivers. The Wilderness offers opportunities for recreational, scenic, scientific, educational, conservation and historic purposes.
 
H
Apr 16, 2008
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washington
You're a BC skier who uses a snowmobile for access, so am I. You say they are not compatible and I say they are the perfect pair. What makes you so right and me so wrong? Am I not one of the users (avid BC skier/snowboarder, climber, winter camper/enthusiast, and snowmobiler) you are trying to represent?

Not liking the sound of snowmobiles (In your case a bit hypocritical?!?) and not being able to ski the terrain because of being tracked out and rutted are two totally different issues. So in a nut shell, you just don't like snowmobiles in "your" backyard unless it's yours:crazy:. All the rest is just BS used to support your "cause" and get sympathizers to jump on board. Pathetic.
 
W

WMC

Banned
Apr 27, 2010
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You're a BC skier who uses a snowmobile for access, so am I. You say they are not compatible and I say they are the perfect pair. What makes you so right and me so wrong? Am I not one of the users (avid BC skier/snowboarder, climber, winter camper/enthusiast, and snowmobiler) you are trying to represent?

Not liking the sound of snowmobiles (In your case a bit hypocritical?!?) and not being able to ski the terrain because of being tracked out and rutted are two totally different issues. So in a nut shell, you just don't like snowmobiles in "your" backyard unless it's yours:crazy:. All the rest is just BS used to support your "cause" and get sympathizers to jump on board. Pathetic.

Does your view represent all? No. Neither does mine. WMC is certain that our stated views take into consideration the majority of winter non-motorized Forest users. Just take the time to read about these issues- some examples are pasted above. the article from the Sun Valley area is an excellent example of collaboration that resulted in areas for motorized and non-motorized uses.

You have your view, your use, I can respect that, you should try to respect others.
 
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H
Apr 16, 2008
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washington
I do respect others rational views.

As I stated earlier, there are over 4.5 million acres in Washington State set aside just for that serene enjoyment. The difficult access complaint is weak. Many remote areas of the wilderness are visited by climbers and skiers every year and really none of the wilderness boundaries bordering the areas you want closed are all that far, with a bit of planning and effort. Snowmobilers have a mere fraction of that area available and your goal is to further reduce that amount. With that I have issues and we part ways...
 
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deepdiver

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2003
936
316
63
Marysville, WA
Ah ha WMC I finally got you to take a shot at me so I could scare you out of the bush so to speak. You talk about the foul 6th grade words I used..what were they I cant recall? If they were real good they would have been censored by Snowest anyway. Sometimes words like that are needed to properly get the point into close minded people like you. Its a wake up call...So you think you are better because you have a different vocabulary. Hmm...come join me with all my Biker friends and tell us all that we dont speak like you want. This is no different than you want to just be a control freak to get your way. I would bet you didnt share much as a child. Besides as a Navy Veteran I am authorized to use full Navy Speek when I so choose. WMC did you ever serve? I mean anything other than yourself.

You dont get it...many people are tired of you and Rondondee and your land grab. We are tired of all the snowmobilers did this and that language you use, when it should say that a certain person or two did something. You are talking about a very few snowmobilers that go to some of the areas you speak of, yet you want to have limits for the other 98 percent of snowmobilers?? WTF WMC.. How much snow does one person need after all? There is more than you can ski and any given day. You know, if you just would get your arse out of bed earlier you can make first tracks.


Since you went on the defensive you showed your Rondondee colors. You might as well go back to your old name and leave some more threating PM's for people like you did before.

You know..this is for Ruffy sort of...This idea of WMC's might be something that I want to pursue, the more I thought about it. Now dont get up in arms till you hear me out. A new rule that all 4stroke Yamaha riders have to stay away from any fresh snowfall. The trenchs are too big. According to Rob you get stuck and leave huge craters that I might land the Polaris in, causing my pistons to become scored.. The 4 stroke is heavier and leaves deeper tracks making it dangerous for me. I dont like the sound or lack there of, of those 4 strokes either. (Im joking here Ruffy)

So WMC how about we just ban Yamahas on Mondays, Skidoos on Tuesdays, Polaris on Wednesdays, and Arctic Cats on Thursdays. That would limit your tracked up areas by 25% per day for four days. Lets make this so complicated that we need Washington Fish and Game to make a rules book. How about a drawing to see who can have a pass for the Navaho like a bull Elk branched antler or special hunt permit...now there is a thought.

Wmc..I find you humorous in a sick sort of way.
 
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deepdiver

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2003
936
316
63
Marysville, WA
I found an interesting article from a BC Skiier from Colorado.

Here is an excert: Backcountry skiing and the snowmobile are joined at the hip. In Washington and California, skiers use the machines to aid travel to remote huts. In my neck of the woods, our groomed snowmobile routes, (known as "over-snow roads") are popular with the nordic ski skating crowd.

Such grooming is paid for by snowmobile registration fees, while skiers pay little or nothing for their use. Snowmobilers work hard for trailhead parking, access and trail marking. Just as we skiers do, snowmobilers love the winter backcountry. Senior citizens, disabled people and many others do hut trips supported by snowmobiles. I've met one guy, a paraplegic, for whom snowmobiling is the equivalent of performance backcountry skiing. For skiers who can't afford guides who store bedding and food at the huts, hauling baggage by machine to these huts is a fair option. Upkeep of many huts requires the use of snowmobiles. Virtually all rescue of backcountry skiers involves snowmobiles. Yet some backcountry skiers feel snowmobiles are nothing less than machines from hell.

Here is the link for the rest of his thoughts. Seems a bit brighter and more realistic than WMC. http://www.wildsnow.com/articles/snowmobiles_paradise_5-4/backcountry_V_4.html
 
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