Seondary spring alternative.

Camo-toe · Jan 1, 2011

There are two different black/violet doo springs.
414-978-300 at 225/303 older RER spring
417-127-062 at 231/303 newer QRS spring

The QRS is wound in the opposite direction too, heres a pic by the goodwin blue/yellow. (not my pic found on another site)

Does anyone know the size of the RER black spring? Seems like a better spring to run.

newtrout · Jan 1, 2011

Camo-toe said:
There are two different black/violet doo springs.
414-978-300 at 225/303 older RER spring
417-127-062 at 231/303 newer QRS spring

The QRS is wound in the opposite direction too, heres a pic by the goodwin blue/yellow. (not my pic found on another site)

Does anyone know the size of the RER black spring? Seems like a better spring to run.

This explains a lot. The QRS spring clearly does not fit over the hub of the closed end cat helix. I ran the QRS spring in my 2010 m8 yesterday and today after cutting down the hub with a 2 1/8 inch hole saw.

It felt pretty responsive. Held rpm very well. Possibly too well. On long pulls, I was up 100 rpm after a minute or two into a climb. Seemed like possible slippage in the primary. Hard to say. Need to compare it back to back with the orange spring to see if there is really much difference.

Would like to try the RER spring, especially if it is considerably longer, as Don indicated.

DonoBBD · Jan 2, 2011

newtrout said:
This explains a lot. The QRS spring clearly does not fit over the hub of the closed end cat helix. I ran the QRS spring in my 2010 m8 yesterday and today after cutting down the hub with a 2 1/8 inch hole saw.

It felt pretty responsive. Held rpm very well. Possibly too well. On long pulls, I was up 100 rpm after a minute or two into a climb. Seemed like possible slippage in the primary. Hard to say. Need to compare it back to back with the orange spring to see if there is really much difference.

Would like to try the RER spring, especially if it is considerably longer, as Don indicated.

The key is the free length. There is less coil bind yet the same rate of a softened up cat orange. The cat orange is about 1" shorter free length than the doo spring. The other key to the new spring is the coils spun the other way. The spring works much better with out binding or bellying up. If you then run the shift assist you will pull out the extra RPM but will end up with more track speed because you will see more up shift with out the secondary spring binding up.

If you guys take two clutches that are the same with the same spring and drop them into a spring tester. Test the spring rate with it in the clutch. You will not get the same numbers. Some springs will bind different than others and some bearings will bind different than others. This is why I like to pin the helix in. This will center the two bearings inner and the one in the helix. If not lined up just right after you drop in a new helix or change the spring you my find you need 30-60 miles of hard up and down shift before the bearings take a new set. This seems to be the case with every time you break the secondary apart. The old style you could pop the end off the helix to change out the spring the lip on the cap and helix would let you keep the two bearing from getting out of line.

The very first T660 and ZR900 secondary had these pins and cost dropped them from the production. The hole are still there for them but now to get around this they tap them out and use more screws. Just set the screws in there and see how much play there is with the screw in the hole. Now X that by 2.5 and you have tight bearings. 2.5 because the inner bearing is 2.5 times bigger then the outter bearing.

Don.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=4271760865985963098#

Frostbite · Jan 2, 2011

Now we are getting somewhere!

So the Skidoo spring sounds like a good alternative to the Cat oranage spring. I didn't have a 2 1/8" hole saw when I did this and I had a heck of a time getting the Skidoo spring over the helix hub. I think I will take it back apart and trim the hub now that I found a 2 1/8" hole saw.

So using the shift assist with the Skidoo spring will produce more track speed?

richie · Jan 2, 2011

I am running a Dalton bilet helix cover not the closed end helix and I cant get a 2-1/8" hole saw started over the hub guess I will have to get it machined.

My question is mine had two of the shims - what should a person do when installing the doo spring, put them back in? Or maybe one to act as a bushing to keep the spring from binding into the cover? Or leave them out?

dp2826 · Jan 2, 2011

will this spring work well in an m7? i am currently running the orange with shift assist and i dont think im pulling the rpms i should be

newtrout · Jan 2, 2011

dp2826 said:
will this spring work well in an m7? i am currently running the orange with shift assist and i dont think im pulling the rpms i should be

Yes, this will work fine in the M7. Lots of people run the Cat orange in the M7, and this Doo spring will have similar effect; but you should find your proper rpm with the primary, not the secondary. Drop a little primary weight or increase the finish rate on your primary spring.

In my opinion, if you're a mountain rider you aren't going to see miraculous changes with this Doo spring. I gave it a shot because I had one left over from my XP and it worked fine. Good backshift; maybe even more backshift than the Cat orange spring.

The strength of the compression spring in the Cat secondary is always going to be a compromise between backshift and upshift. There isn't a magic spring out there that is going to give you both.

Desperado · Jan 2, 2011

Frostbite, I thought you bought an RKT secondary kit to try, have you had a chance to compare that setup with your experiments on the compression setup? My experiece with the Doo spring was not good, I didn't have amymore success than other compression setups. So far the RKT has been my best result so far.

Frostbite · Jan 2, 2011

I haven't pulled the trigger on the RK Tek setup yet.

Now I'm thinking about trying the MDS weights first.

CATSLEDMAN1 · Jan 3, 2011

good thread

going to try some of these springs, been making a setup with a spare clutch to run team springs, to lazy to try it so far, going to do some side by side comparisons now.

I have found with any spring in the DD, good tuning requires the 05-06 open end helix and the spring pressure adjustment big white nut for really checking out the possibilites of the springs. A half turn in or out can change upshift significantly. Don't judge how it worked on our sad little M7 secondaries and platinum springs when cranking on the white adjuster produced no results. It will wow you at times when a little adjustment produces a big change when you have a good spring that's already working.

Nothing cat makes seems to works as good as the orange in the m sleds in steep and deep.

killerrf · Jan 3, 2011

so with the enclosed helix's... factory comes with two black shims in the helix under the orange spring. any idea how much pressure would drop with just one shim removed vs two? plus i have the shift assist in already. i do find the upshift definitely slows down once speed is up there. still pulls it but much slower.

i was going to try one shim removed. and see how that feels. i know i had tried two shims out before when i had my m8 out and it did feel doggy.

WyoBoy1000 · Jan 3, 2011

Pulled a shim with assist in and it seemed to help a little on top but could not really tell for sure. I thought it was better so I left it, but still not happy with it.

newtrout · Jan 7, 2011

Here is a photo of the springs in question. Left to right is purple/purple RER spring, purple purple QRS spring (reverse wound) and cat orange spring. Neither doo spring will fit over the closed end cat helix without cutting down the center helix hub.

[/IMG]

kusy · Jan 7, 2011

rer or rqs, wtf

so please help me out with all the three letter words. wich one do i buy??? i'm a ditchbanger xfire7 and head out west very little.thanx,j.

Frostbite · Jan 30, 2011

Guys, does anyone have an update on this topic?

I did use my 2 1/8" hole saw and fit the Skidoo spring right over the center of over my BDX 44/36 helix. Yes, I can tell you it works very well but, I can't tell you exactly how well because I was on a trail ride with the family and only got to climb a couple hills.

Does anyone else have any updates?

fasta76 · Jul 21, 2011

dkg · Oct 7, 2012

Frostbite · Oct 7, 2012

I don't have too much to add. I still have the Skidoo spring in my secondary and I am very happy with it. I have been using the MSD weights in the primary and together they seem to work very well. I can now pull 8,200 RPM while climbing with my SLP stage III setup. That will more than likely change now that I am going from the stock 2.25" powerclaw to the 2.6" version.

dkg · Oct 8, 2012

so witch doo spring is the right one the qrs or the old spring

SnoPro753 · Oct 26, 2012

dkg said:
so witch doo spring is the right one the qrs or the old spring

The QRS spring. It has longer free length than the Cat Orange spring. It is also reverse wind to the Cat Orange spring and thus will not coil bind under compression like a Cat Orange spring. Look at NewTrout's photo above for visual picture of the springs. QRS spring in the center.

Seondary spring alternative.

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