Impact on soils and vegetation

suitcase · Oct 28, 2009

(Snowmobile use on Dutchman Flat is not permitted until Forest Service Officials have determined snow density and depth are adequate enough to prevent impacts to soils and vegetation in the area. )

A quote from our forest service on this riding area. Put on snow west by another user.

This is the forest services reason for this early season closure, they are worried about soil and vegetation damage from snowmobiles. And yet the forest service does nothing about our dead and dieing forest. So it will contiue to burn. I don't think a little dirt showing throw the snow, or the top of a annual growing plant being broken off, is a big problem. This statement from the forest service is BS. If they are worried about soil and vegetation then they would be working on restoration of our timber land, and quit letting it burn, and put people back to work.
A quote from me. ( Yes It is the same old story with the U.S.F.S. I'm just getting tired of certian people in our sport that support the forest service and what they are doing to or access to our lands. With out voiceing our dislike to those actions and those people we might as well shut up and stay in our house and ignore what these people are doing to our sport.) End quote!!!!!!!!!!!

Tree Killer · Oct 28, 2009

U.S.F.S 101 That's how, any more questions

Burndown1 · Oct 29, 2009

Liberals want to ban all snowmobiles. No more anywhere. Nature freaks, lets all smoke pot and boink each other. Were their any snomobiles at woodstock?

snowmobiler · Oct 29, 2009

i agree its stupid in most areas like dirt bikes in the forest or desert.doesnt hurt anything.dutchmans is different.without going into the reasons why,it has been like that since the begining of time.stay off untill 2 feet of snow or get your license plate turned in and pay a big fine:beer;

suitcase · Oct 29, 2009

snowmobiler said:
i agree its stupid in most areas like dirt bikes in the forest or desert.doesnt hurt anything.dutchmans is different.without going into the reasons why,it has been like that since the begining of time.stay off untill 2 feet of snow or get your license plate turned in and pay a big fine:beer;

I understand the battle. As there are things that need to be handled with silk gloves, which I don't have!! I don't like the forest service putting restrictions on our land. It is a good thing that there can be multiuse areas like that, helps our cause. With those issues that hender our sport, snowmobilers need to use a little comon sence. So not to give ammo to the greenies. It is things like that why I don't go to those places and ride. Most of us on snowest do a great job of supporting our sport.

CleElum Sledhead · Oct 29, 2009

suitcase69 said:
A quote from me. ( Yes It is the same old story with the U.S.F.S. I'm just getting tired of certian people in our sport that support the forest service and what they are doing to do to or access to our lands. With out voiceing our dislike to those actions and those people we might as well shut up and stay in our house and ignore what these people are doing to our sport.) End quote!!!!!!!!!!!

And who might be these "certian people in our sport that support the forest service and what they are doing to do to or access to our lands"?

I am pretty sure that you got your info from the following post by OregonGirl on the Oregon riding section. And if so, why did you not comment on that post?

http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=174911

Dutchman Flat is still closed.....please respect this early season closure!

http://www.h2oregon.com/showthread.php?t=837

From the FS:

An early taste of winter has descended on the higher elevations with snow blocking/closing some roads, trails and access to trailheads.

Short summary:

Road closures:

Hwy 46 from Mt. Bachelor to Deschutes Bridge has closed for the season due to snow
Road 370 from Hwy 46 north to the road 4601 junction is closed (gates locked) for the season due to snow
Hwy 242 (Mckenzie Pass) has closed for the season due to snow
Newberry Crater Road 21 remains open for the time being. Paulina Peak Road in the Crater is closed for the season due to snow.
The non gated section of Road 370 and the upper mile of 4601 will be closed wed and Thursday for road/trail maintenance.

Trails:

Higher country summer trails (above 5,000') along the Crest, on the Deschutes National Forest have 3-16" of snow and many are blocked by snow. Access to many of the trailheads accessing these trails is inaccessible due to snow.

Snowmobile use on Dutchman Flat is not permitted until Forest Service Officials have determined snow density and depth are adequate enough to prevent impacts to soils and vegetation in the area.

Winter trail use is not recommended nor is there adequate snow depth for safe winter trail operations at this time. Rocks, stumps and other low snow hazards abound.

We will try to send out a more complete report on trail and road conditions before the weekend. Or it may be early next week at the latest!
-----------

There is alot of multi-use scrutiny in the area right now....with a very vocal group trying to close this area and Dutchman Sno-park to motorized (snowmobile!) access. PLEASE obey the early season closure UNTIL the FS removes the closure signs!! What we DON'T need is a closure sign with sled tracks behind it published online or in the local newspapers!

And I certainly hope that your comment about "certian people in our sport that support the forest service and what they are doing to do to or access to our lands" is not directed at OregonGirl, who happens to be doing more to try and keep Oregon riding areas open to snowmobilers than probably anyone else in the state. And I also know for fact she is very opposed to potential future closure by the Forest Service. But breaking current laws and/or rules, even if they are bogus, does not help the cause. She is just informing snowmobilers it is illegal, could lead to future closures, and does not state she supports the FS in her post.

Oregongirl · Oct 29, 2009

Who is this Suitcase guy???

Hmmmm.....I am truly hoping that your post is purely just venting and that you don't really believe that ME....the person who posted the FS update in the Oregon section.....is in support of closures of our PUBLIC lands to snowmobiling???

Seriously?????

Are you a SAWS member? A member of a club?? What have you done this week to ensure that the FS isn't going to be closing more PUBLIC lands to your choice of recreational activities??

That's really all I want to know.

I am just STRONGLY encouraging sledders to obey the posted closure signs because THERE ARE SIGNIFICANT AND ONGOING BATTLES TO KEEP THIS AREA OPEN TO SNOWMOBILING EVEN WHEN THERE IS SIGNIFICANT SNOW ON THE GROUND.

I can appreciate that you are in EO :face-icon-small-hap and don't choose to ride at this location outside of Bend, but many, many, many other people do. The last thing we need is someone coming in (on a sled, or on a public forum) and undermining the endless hours of work that MANY snowmobilers, business owners and organizations have spent to keep this entire area open to motorized access.

As I type this I realize that this might be a good topic in general.....if you happen travel to ride in someone else's backyard, it would be good practice to not chit it in. Maybe the local sledders are fighting a closure battle that you are not aware of. Just maybe your sled tracks on the wrong side of the Wilderness or watershed boundary marker are just what the environazi's needed to close the entire area. No skin off your back right? You were only going to ride there once anyway, right? As they say...."What goes around, comes around."

I would LOVE to say that we aren't all facing this closure threats, but we are!

600,000 acres in MT; 600,000 acres in OR. Do those numbers surprise you?

Then you better get informed!!

suitcase · Oct 29, 2009

CleElum Sledhead said:
And who might be these "certian people in our sport that support the forest service and what they are doing to do to or access to our lands"?

I am pretty sure that you got your info from the following post by OregonGirl on the Oregon riding section. And if so, why did you not comment on that post?

http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=174911

Dutchman Flat is still closed.....please respect this early season closure!

http://www.h2oregon.com/showthread.php?t=837

From the FS:

An early taste of winter has descended on the higher elevations with snow blocking/closing some roads, trails and access to trailheads.

Short summary:

Road closures:

Hwy 46 from Mt. Bachelor to Deschutes Bridge has closed for the season due to snow
Road 370 from Hwy 46 north to the road 4601 junction is closed (gates locked) for the season due to snow
Hwy 242 (Mckenzie Pass) has closed for the season due to snow
Newberry Crater Road 21 remains open for the time being. Paulina Peak Road in the Crater is closed for the season due to snow.
The non gated section of Road 370 and the upper mile of 4601 will be closed wed and Thursday for road/trail maintenance.

Trails:

Higher country summer trails (above 5,000') along the Crest, on the Deschutes National Forest have 3-16" of snow and many are blocked by snow. Access to many of the trailheads accessing these trails is inaccessible due to snow.

Snowmobile use on Dutchman Flat is not permitted until Forest Service Officials have determined snow density and depth are adequate enough to prevent impacts to soils and vegetation in the area.

Winter trail use is not recommended nor is there adequate snow depth for safe winter trail operations at this time. Rocks, stumps and other low snow hazards abound.

We will try to send out a more complete report on trail and road conditions before the weekend. Or it may be early next week at the latest!
-----------

There is alot of multi-use scrutiny in the area right now....with a very vocal group trying to close this area and Dutchman Sno-park to motorized (snowmobile!) access. PLEASE obey the early season closure UNTIL the FS removes the closure signs!! What we DON'T need is a closure sign with sled tracks behind it published online or in the local newspapers!

And I certainly hope that your comment about "certian people in our sport that support the forest service and what they are doing to do to or access to our lands" is not directed at OregonGirl, who happens to be doing more to try and keep Oregon riding areas open to snowmobilers than probably anyone else in the state. And I also know for fact she is very opposed to potential future closure by the Forest Service. But breaking current laws and/or rules, even if they are bogus, does not help the cause. She is just informing snowmobilers it is illegal, could lead to future closures, and does not state she supports the FS in her post.

This is the very reason that I DID NOT post on that page. And that information is usefull to the snowmobilers. I Agree that we don't need any bad exposure to be used in adding to more closures. But I believe that there needs to be more presure put on these groups and the U.S.F.S, so we as a voice, mine or yours does not need to be herd over egg shells. If the political game is played our results are slow to none. The green groups waste no time in putting up closesures. The efforts that are put forth by snowmobilers to stop closures is thanked buy everyone who enjoys the sport. I do not have to approve of your veiws and actions nor you of mine, as long as the end result is the same. I have been fighting with the forest service and the green groups for 20 years. And In my opinion there is no room for suttle hints to stop closures. We as snowmobilers and as AMERICANS need to stop the closures of public lands. We payed to have them established, that right is being taken away. Yes I do believe there are people in this sport that have other agendas. I will not discuse that issuse.
I was not thinking that laws need to be broken due to that closure. If that line is crossed then those people have not a care one about stoping these closures. But the fact remains that there should be no closure in place. And the forest services statement of the soil and vegitation is BS. As my statement of the burning of our forest stated.
So we can agree to disagree; I did not need aproval to post my thoughts.
Thanky you for your concern.
P.S. I do make my voice herd, not just on snowest. I also use my reprsenitives of OR.

suitcase · Oct 29, 2009

Oregongirl said:
Hmmmm.....I am truly hoping that your post is purely just venting and that you don't really believe that ME....the person who posted the FS update in the Oregon section.....is in support of closures of our PUBLIC lands to snowmobiling??? Seriously?????

Are you a SAWS member? A member of a club?? What have you done this week to ensure that the FS isn't going to be closing more PUBLIC lands to your choice of recreational activities?? That's really all I want to know.

I am just STRONGLY encouraging sledders to obey the posted closure signs because THERE ARE SIGNIFICANT AND ONGOING BATTLES TO KEEP THIS AREA OPEN TO SNOWMOBILING EVEN WHEN THERE IS SIGNIFICANT SNOW ON THE GROUND.

I can appreciate that you are in EO :face-icon-small-hap and don't choose to ride at this location outside of Bend, but many, many, many other people do. The last thing we need is someone coming in (on a sled, or on a public forum) and undermining the endless hours of work that MANY snowmobilers, business owners and organizations have spent to keep this entire area open to motorized access.

As I type this I realize that this might be a good topic in general.....if you happen travel to ride in someone else's backyard, it would be good practice to not chit it in. Maybe the local sledders are fighting a closure battle that you are not aware of. Just maybe your sled tracks on the wrong side of the Wilderness or watershed boundary marker are just what the environazi's needed to close the entire area. No skin off your back right? You were only going to ride there once anyway, right? As they say...."What goes around, comes around."

I would LOVE to say that we aren't all facing this closure threats, but we are! 600,000 acres in MT; 600,000 acres in OR. Do those numbers surprise you? Then you better get informed!!

I have e-mailed our congresman until my hands hurt. Don't guess from a arm chair. I have been dealing with these groups for 20 years. And yes you said it in your own words public. This is the reaction that tells me alot. Thank you for confiming.
And let me guess you don't approve of logging? Your a Dem. and voted for Obama?

OSSA
blue ribbon col.

PowderMiner · Oct 29, 2009

Keep up the good work!

Great Post!

I have had it with all the uninformed speculation to the negatives of the sports I love from mostly people from outside the area in they work for whatever organization.
I work for the gov. and I throw-up a little each day from the pompous, fake, malapert’s we pay a lot of money to monitor our planet, it would really help if we'd look after it a little ourselves and be able to affirmatively state the case for or sports and the little comparable impact that is already stringently regulated.

However; we do need to have a little common sense, while the damage may be minor, it only supports biased speculation that is fuel to restrict our use.

One example:
If you use a multi-use snow park, don’t trash it and don't run over the trees right next to the skinny-ski folk's trail. If you get a chance pick up some garbage in front of some skiers and start a conversation with them and calmly articulate your care for the Multi-use area, (most of the snow park mess is from local kids) (and I don't know that from personal experience

)and the fact that there are areas designated for specific use only. ECT...

Might want to post a warning in the general forum too? Maybe some don't know of the threat we potentially are to our own hobbies; and we can use a little reminder.

Thanks because I read this and thought; oh yea might want to watch my P's and Q's!

By the way it cornfuses the heck out of them because I am so passionate for conserving and restoring the outdoors. Quite often even the liberalist and most obstinate speculator will say something promising, like; “ you need to keep forest access roads to fight fires”!!! or; “snowmobiles aren’t bad because you are running on top of the now and not causing erosion”!!! Make me feel happy! I go on to explain that the Forest Service trails they like to hike are made with shovels and polaskies to notch a trail in the side of the hill, and there are about 200 times the miles allowed to walked on in comparison to the motorcycle or ATV use… HMMM???

Thanks again for a great post!

suitcase · Oct 29, 2009

PowderMiner said:
Great Post!

I have had it with all the uninformed speculation to the negatives of the sports I love from mostly people from outside the area in they work for whatever organization.
I work for the gov. and I throw-up a little each day from the pompous, fake, malapert’s we pay a lot of money to monitor our planet, it would really help if we'd look after it a little ourselves and be able to affirmatively state the case for or sports and the little comparable impact that is already stringently regulated.

However; we do need to have a little common sense, while the damage may be minor, it only supports biased speculation that is fuel to restrict our use.

One example:
If you use a multi-use snow park, don’t trash it and don't run over the trees right next to the skinny-ski folk's trail. If you get a chance pick up some garbage in front of some skiers and start a conversation with them and calmly articulate your care for the Multi-use area, (most of the snow park mess is from local kids) (and I don't know that from personal experience )and the fact that there are areas designated for specific use only. ECT...

Might want to post a warning in the general forum too? Maybe some don't know of the threat we potentially are to our own hobbies; and we can use a little reminder.

Thanks because I read this and thought; oh yea might want to watch my P's and Q's!

By the way it cornfuses the heck out of them because I am so passionate for conserving and restoring the outdoors. Quite often even the liberalist and most obstinate speculator will say something promising, like; “ you need to keep forest access roads to fight fires”!!! or; “snowmobiles aren’t bad because you are running on top of the now and not causing erosion”!!! Make me feel happy! I go on to explain that the Forest Service trails they like to hike are made with shovels and polaskies to notch a trail in the side of the hill, and there are about 200 times the miles allowed to walked on in comparison to the motorcycle or ATV use… HMMM???

Thanks again for a great post!

Thank you for your great post. Sounds like everyone here is very passionate.

Oregongirl · Oct 29, 2009

suitcase69 said:
And let me guess you don't approve of logging? Your a Dem. and voted for Obama?

OSSA
blue ribbon col.

I have never voted for a democrat. I'm not sure how you got that out of my post. Maybe my location?? Don't let that fool ya....I'm an Eastern Oregon gal by birth and at heart. Log away!! Open season on wolves and let's get together and have a nice roasted spotted owl for dinner. I have watched too many OR communities destroyed by too many of these "environmental protections".

suitcase · Oct 29, 2009

Oregongirl said:
I have never voted for a democrat. I'm not sure how you got that out of my post. Maybe my location?? Don't let that fool ya....I'm an Eastern Oregon gal by birth and at heart. Log away!! Open season on wolves and let's get together and have a nice roasted spotted owl for dinner. I have watched too many OR communities destroyed by too many of these "environmental protections".

Fair enough.

suitcase · Oct 29, 2009

This thread was started due to more of the forest services closure statement of the soil and vegatation issue. And it turned in to this. That is why I put it on the land forum. So not to take from another thread in another forum. I made no personal attacks on any one person. There were two on this thread. And not from me. So if in someway you feel presure from my post, then you might want to ask yourself why?

CleElum Sledhead · Oct 29, 2009

If anyone thinks that there is an organization more extreme than SAWS in our outright war against snowmobile closures, cough up the info. As the current SAWS Chairman (volunteer position), I can tell you there is none. I was not involved in helping to form this organization 5 years ago with all volunteer help, because I thought everything was going just dandy, as our riding areas are getting smaller all the time.

Again, I can ensure you there are none more extreme than SAWS. Some groups are pretty good, and I support many, but who else is against all new snowmobile closures? None. That is why we were formed. We do not believe in any more acres of closures to snowmobile access.

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and actions; Get involved, Don't get involved, Ride where you want, Or contact your reps on your own with or without good information to help them make an educated decision. I actually and getting to point where I wonder why I waste my time, when so few snowmobilers seem to really give a rats a$$ either way. But I do get a little pissed off when someone wants to piss on a SAWS rep that does not get a penny for their time, and the folks doing the pissing don't have all of the facts. Go piss on the forest service if you don't like their policies. We don't like them either.

SAWS actually gets beat up sometimes because we won't agree to accepting 50% of some area proposed being closed being acceptable to us, when some other groups might. Well, SAWS believes that snowmobilers have given enough. We will never support another closure, not even one more acre going to wilderness.

So read up on the groups you support, or don't support, or don't give a &%$#, but I see no value on trying to beat up on the one that is the most extreme in snowmobilers favor.

I refuse to spend any of my volunteer time to try and reopen an area closed to snowmobile use because of the lack of involvement. I will however do whatever I can to keep current areas open, and so will all the other volunteers involved with SAWS.

Good to Go · Oct 29, 2009

suitcase69 said:
And let me guess you don't approve of logging? Your a Dem. and voted for Obama?

Oregon Girl...? LMAO...Talk about un-informed....!! Bawhahahahahahahaha.....

You're in good company..I got called a "Lib" a bit ago. Funniest damn thing I'd read in a while.

Keep up the good work.....!!!!!!!!!

suitcase · Oct 30, 2009

Ruffeled feathers

I believe that my wording of my post, after going and reading it again, could have been taken wrong. My intention was directed towards the U.S.F.S. and THOSE THAT SNOWMOBILE TO THERE SNOWSHOEING,NORDIC,ALPINE SKIING SPOTS, we have them in EO and I'm sure you have them there as well. It is those people that I refear to. It is those people that don't like our sport, they use our trails and snow parks, it is those people that want to close up more land, and it is those people I VERY MUCH DISLIKE. SO IF YOU DON'T FIT THAT CLASSIFICATION THEN THERE SHOULD BE NO WORRIES. Ive seen that there is a lot of effort put in to inform snowmobilers, and like I stated it is greatly welcomed. So for that I say thank you again. I would like to think that all of use here work for the same things. So with that in mind please reread my origonal post.
Thank you for your time.

Oregongirl · Oct 30, 2009

It's all GOOD!!

Maybe we should have just taken your tag line.....don't follow suitcase....more seriously, eh??

(oh....and so's ya aren't mislead....just because I used "eh" in the sentence above DOES NOT mean that I'm CANADIAN! LMAO!!)

CleElum Sledhead · Oct 30, 2009

suitcase69 said:
I believe that my wording of my post, after going and reading it again, could have been taken wrong. My intention was directed towards the U.S.F.S. and THOSE THAT SNOWMOBILE TO THERE SNOWSHOEING,NORDIC,ALPINE SKIING SPOTS, we have them in EO and I'm sure you have them there as well. It is those people that I refear to. It is those people that don't like our sport, they use our trails and snow parks, it is those people that want to close up more land, and it is those people I VERY MUCH DISLIKE. SO IF YOU DON'T FIT THAT CLASSIFICATION THEN THERE SHOULD BE NO WORRIES. Ive seen that there is a lot of effort put in to inform snowmobilers, and like I stated it is greatly welcomed. So for that I say thank you again. I would like to think that all of use here work for the same things. So with that in mind please reread my origonal post.
Thank you for your time.

OK, now that we have all settled down and re-read some posts, it sounds like we are all on the same team. Great to hear.

I think you understand why reading your first post that I quoted above and put in bold, that I might misunderstand what you were trying to say. Once I was mad, and let you know about it. Then you got mad, and we went down hill from there - to say the least.

I think once we were both mad, there was no one going to tell either of us we were wrong, so it was best to just leave it alone and come back today, read it all again, and then scratch our heads and ask "what the heck went wrong with this thread".

Thanks for the clarification suitcase!:beer;

Tree Killer · Nov 1, 2009

I am glad to see every one is on the same page about the sport.You gotta watch that Suitcase69 guy lol.:beer;:beer;

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