SLP engine base plate/clutch alignment

Double Ds said:

i have an issue, I installed a SLP base plate on my 03 800, i noticed after trying to align the motor, with the primary clutch on, to the secondary shaft, with an alignment tool it appears to be 1/4'' off to the front of the sled, the thickness of the base plate, which makes the C/C off, looking at it that makes sense because the motor is raised up and forward 1/4''. Do I slot the clutch side motor mount 1/4'' or do i put a washer under the front two motor mounts to roll the motor back a 1/4''? I think once i get the C/C exact the offset will be good to go, just rotate the mag side slightly.what is the correct thing to do?

Have a great thanks giving


Thanks DD

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DD,

I've aligned a lot of these sleds, trying to roll back the motor by placing shims/washers under the front won't get you there.

I'm surprised that the motor plate altered your c/c and offset by that much.

I would suggest to triple check it and if neccesary slot the engine case to bracket holes.

The last sled that I had that was 1/4" LONG on c/c was a '96 Storm 800.

All the other EDGE'S I checked were a little short on c/c and the engine was twisted a liitle more, corrected by placing Chevrolet style starter shims behind the mag side rear engine bracket to correct the twist and then both rears to increase the SHORT c/c.

BTW, if you go to the IQ section, INCREASING YOUR IQ "sticky" at the top, In there is my TECH TIPS FOR 600/700/800 CFI's thread. There's pics posted there of the IQ engine brackets I had to slot as much as 3/8"!!

Hope this helps

Double Ds said:

thanks that makes sense is it not a good idea to slot the motor mounts if needed? i was surprised it was off at all the only thing i could think of is that 1/4'' SLP base plate raised and moved the motor up and forward that much, also for a 03 800 edge button style secondary the C/C is 11.5 correct? it uses a 11080 belt, the C/C needs to be exact and square, then set the offset with the secondary by adding or removing shims ? I thought you had to add some offset in the motor.

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DD,

11.5" is correct

Which secondary do you have on your sled, as this determines which offset alignment tool to be used and/or measured back from??

And do you have any engine limiters (Mag Side) and/or Torque limiters (P.T.O. Side) on your sled ????

If you don't have a c/c tool, I take a 12" metal straight edge and butt the one end up against the 1" diameter jackshaft and look for 11" at the crank center.

Agree that plate raises it up.

Don't agree that it increases c/c that's all, anything is possible, but that part just didn't make sense that's all.

Definitely slot if necceasary, just triple check your dimensions as I'm surprised by the long c/c on an EDGE, that's all.

Please check out the INCREASING YOUR IQ, and CLUTCH ALIGNMENT and TECH TIPS thread contained with in, pictures are posted as well as offfset specs.

After you check out those threads and pics.

Let me know if I can help.




TOP= POLARIS LWT Part # PS-47477 identifiable by the LWT 1 1/2" tall letters inscribed (approx .070" of built -in "kick" WHICH IS GENERALLY MORE THAN YOU WANT!!!!!!) for use with TSS-04 LIGHTWEIGHT SECONDARY ONLY (contacts the outside of the secondary)


MIDDLE= SLP part # 20-191 This tool is parallel, "straight" no built-in "kick". For use with roller secondarys fits the TSS-98 PERFECTLY, Will work with TSS-04 requires .100" setback measurement to be factored in with a stack of feeler gauges or vernier caliper.(contacts the outside of the secondary) SLP now has a new tool specific to the TSS-04 to where you don't have to jerk around with measuring .100" back, new for 2010, PART # 20-188 $49.95, TEAM also has tools specific to the TSS-98 and TSS-04


NEXT TO BOTTOM= SLP part # 20-150 Standard for "Old style" button secondary, Basically EDGE's and older Indy's. 5/8" OFFSET between backside of secondary. This tool is parallel, as in "straight", no built-in "kick" (contacts the backside of the secondary which is somewhat inaccurate as the backside of the secondary "moves" with the width adjustment on the models with externally adjustable width secondarys)


Bottom Hi -Performance Engineering Center to Center Tool, E-Z to fabricate out of a piece of Scrap Aluminum or Steel, cut-out for jackshaft is 1" Exactly, after that 11.5" c/c. After that you do NOT need the additional 1/2" diameter holes shown in the pic, only the 1" horse shoe or 1" round hole cut-out is req'd and then put some black magic marker on the edge of the tool, tap lightly on the crank snout and you'll have your mark, compare that to your 11.5" scribe mark




I've HEARD REPORTS OF SOME TOOLS NOT BEING "STRAIGHT", PROBABLY NOT A BAD IDEA TO CHECK 'EM WITH A STRAIGHT EDGE!!!!!!!


TIPS FOR SLOTTING THE ENGINE BRACKET(S) IF NECESSARY (TIPS INTENDED FOR IQ's, BUT SOME APPLY TO EDGE's AS WELL)

Here's a tip, if you're going to slot the mag side bracket, first check the air gap at the rear of the secondary to see where it's at.

After that, take the amount you're off by at the secondary and go slightly less than double that "air gap" amount on the slot.

Example, my DRAGON 700 was off by .180". Alignment tool touching the front of the secondary and it had a .180" air gap at the rear.(UGLY!!!!!!)

.180" times 2 = .360" go slightly less, say .320" +/-

Slot the MAG Side going FORWARD approximately .320" and you'll be REAL CLOSE!!!!!

Double check C/C, and if need be, slot BOTH sides an equal amount at that point and you're done.

First time I did this I removed the engine, took about 4 hours, and that's how I prefer to do it.

But for those of you that don't want to mess with all the wiring, fuel lines, anti-freeze draining, etc, I got it down to the Indy Pit Stop Style of unbolting the 4 engine mount bolts and leaving EVERYTHING ELSE in place. Jack up the engine, sticking some 2" x 4" blocks under it and removing ONLY the Mag side bracket, slotting and re-installing. It's a P.I.T.A. this way but for those of you that don't want to mess around with draining the anti-freeze and trying to figure out the wiring, etc, it's an option.



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Double Ds said:

ok now im really confused, i talked to SLP today and they said yes it does raise it as we talked about, also i rechecked the C/C and it was really only off 3/16'' forward not the 1/4'' like i said, he said to leave it and make up the difference with the secondary( belt deflection).Here is what he told me make the primary clutch square with the jack shaft, then use the secondary to get the off set, here is were im confused, i thought the motor and primary was turned so slightly to compensate for the torqe of the motor, that were the torge stop comes in.

I have the button style secondary, in all honesty i think im being anal about the C/C if its only 3/16'' forward.

thanks again

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DD,

3/16" off on the c/c is huge in performance.

That's like 3/8" short on the belt!!

If you "open up" the secondary to compensate you're settting the belt lower in the secondary for take-off from the starting line so-to speak, kinda like taking your truck and accelerating from the stoplight in 2nd gear.

Could you do it that way ?? Yes

Is it right? NO

Will you lose holeshot?? Yes

I personally like leaving the starting line HARD, see pic below.

ENGINE TWIST

With the button secondary the tool you want is the #3 on the list, touches the BACKside of the secondary

"TURNED SLIGHTLY-YES, BUT NOT TOO MUCH TWIST"

POLARIS reccomends up to 1/8" air gap at the front of the secondary, when the tool is touching the back of the secondary.

I prefer to run 'em tighter, preferably .020" to .030" air gap at the front with torque arm and push arm.

So, the ENGINE TWIST is pretty e-z to fix with shims behind the rear engine bracket, however beacause your c/c is LONG you have to slot the case to bracket holes. No other way around it.

If you don't care about performance, open up the secondary and you're done.

If you want to do it right and gain performance, slot the brackets.

The performance of your sled rests in your hands.

Hope this helps.

BTW, that pic I posted with the alignment tool does NOT apply to your sled, that's a ROLLER secondary set-up, Where-by the tool contacts the outside of the secondary.

Because you have the "old style" button clutch, the alignment tool touches the BACK side of the secondary. You'll be looking to measure the "air gap' at the front of the secondary.

Also you didn't say how much "TWIST" or air gap you have.

Also are you running any push limiters(mag side) or torque arms.(pto side)

Both of these would affect "air gap" settings.



Way back in 1984 when I was 22, I built a '72 Dodge Colt, Full Tube Chassis car in my garage, another in a series of 1/4 mile drag cars, Strange Struts, 4-link rear, Koni Coil Overs externally adjustable, 15" x 33"s, Did all my own Fabricating, including Aluminum Motor Plates, Mid-Plates to Accomodate a 426 Wegde Motor, Trans mounts, set-up the Narrowed Dana 60, built the Torqueflite Trans, Engine, etc, Lexan Widows, Quick Release Dzus Fasteners and Quick Release Pins Everywhere, 2220 lbs, with driver.

Leaving the starting line plastered to the back on my seat carrying the front wheels in the air and stopping it from 133+ m.p.h. by pulling the parachute, PRICELESS!!!

I know what it takes to be fast, and know what it takes to make and build things right.

And I might have even learned a few things since then, lol

I had the same problem when I installed a base plate on my 02. Rather than removing the engine again and slotting the mounts, I added a couple of shims under the front mounts. That brought my C/C within about 1/8 inch. My clutch offset was about .055. So I made a torque arm and used it to close the offset distance to .020, my C/C was dead on now.

I agree with Kraven 100%. I just did it this way because I didn't want to pull the engine again. But If your not going to install additional push limiters or torque arms, I don't think you have any other options. I don't remember exactly how much I spent, but I made my own torque arm (pto side) and push limiter (mag side) and cost me about $75.

engine alignment

Double Ds said:

cool makes sense, no i dont have any push arms other than factory it been like that for 3300 miles and no money to add them fight now, i am sure how much air gap i had because when i pulled my motor i did not plan on using a base plate and at the last minute a friend said he had one so i put it in, what should it be? so one last time, make the 11.5'' C/C exact, put a little twist in it using the front of the secondary, and then adjust my side to side. this is a pain in the arse, mabye i should leave the base plate out and just run it with factory settings. not i will get it i just need to offset the holes, and it should be easy from there, oh why cant i offset the motor straps and the two holes on the bulkhead be the secondary vs the 4 motor base plate holes?

thanks again i am sure i will have more questions so be ready.

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DD,

I've slotted them both ways, I prefer to slot the case to bracket holes.

Leaving the "plate" out won't resolve you're LONG C/C, only way to do that is slot the holes.

Air gap WITHOUT push limiters, I would say, approx .070" MAX air gap (prefer less) @ the front of the secondary with the rear "touching" the alignment bar, with no engine limiters (other than stock)

SLP sells the push limiter for $ 42.95, (one hole to drill)

SLP sells the WMS torque arm for $82.95 (no holes to drill)

Both are E-Z install, can be done later should you desire to do so.


Hope this helps

Is there a motor plate that doesn't raise these issues. I understand there will always be some adjustments, but come on. You shouldn't have to shim up. This is like a manufacturing shortcut. Don't get me wrong, SLP makes some good products.

westsledin said:

Is there a motor plate that doesn't raise these issues. I understand there will always be some adjustments, but come on. You shouldn't have to shim up. This is like a manufacturing shortcut. Don't get me wrong, SLP makes some good products.

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Don't blame SLP on this one,

I suspect the c/c would still be off, it mayhave slightly compounded the issue, but the motor plate is not the culprit here, as I've told the story a few post up above about my BRAND NEW 1996 STORM 800 that wouldn't do over 95 m.p.h. on the dream-o-meter that was 1/4" long on the center to center from the factory.

Laser technology, LOL

Double Ds said:

By golly gee wiz i got it, I added a washer under each front motor mount and it is perfect, exactly 11.5'', and my offset is .035'' without doing anything, so do i want to make the motor as solid as possible and fine tune my offset? I may make some push straps? it looks pretty easy to make. do you have pics of your straps?

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DD,

Check the INCREASING YOUR IQ thread,A STICKY @ the top of the IQ section, and look for my thread TECH TIPS FOR 600,700,800 CFI's

There's a pic posted of the PUSH limiter that goes on the mag side, now that pic is for the IQ, edge is very similar.SLP sells it for $42.95 new

I don't have a pic of the WMS torque arm (p.t.o. side) as I sold my edge. However that one is sold by both SLP and TRI-CITY POLARIS ,you may want to check their websites, sells for $82.95 new

You're correct, pretty E-Z to fab as long as you have something to copy.

Even the WMS one, a couple of 3/8" heim ends, an aluminum bracket and you're set.

My bud has both of my old limiters as I kept them off my sled when I traded it in, he's given up riding, (his son rides w/me now) It's difficult to reach him but if I do, I'll grab the limiters and post the pics with some dimensions.

Hope this helps