Everybody see this??!!
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N
Get educated on what's going on. Get involved. Take the time to write a letter to the USFS. It all helps.
W
Funny how citizens other than snowmobile riders want to use a share of the Forest.
WMC was founded specifically to ask for USFS management of recreation on the non-Wilderness Forest to provide some areas for winter non-motorized use. Not everyone that asks for a share of the Forest is an environmentalist, liberal, etc., we are citizens like you guys, but without a share of the Forest.
Your interest group is well organized around a simple "no" strategy. WMC has tried to reach out and talk and even discussed the idea that if we came to a mutual agreement on the area of the WMC proposal, perhaps that could be used as leverage in the future to preserve some riding.
As far as the WWA Petition, it addresses the mystery of management of snowmobiles on the Forest. The Executive Order resulting in management of ORV use does not exempt snowmobiles, it is a curious development how snowmobiles were exempted. In the future, sooner or later, snowmobiles will be managed in a manner similar to how motorcycles and ORVs are now managed on the Forest. Soon, an EIS will need to be done to prove that snowmobiles may ride in an area of the Forest. Areas for snowmobile riding will be required to be planned and designated. Recreational conflicts and other considerations will be addressed.
As discussed before, we shall see how the "no' strategy works out in the future.
Thank you.
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W
The pm says, "How they are going to restrict Snowmobile access to all US Forest Service Land"
They? They will do nothing as far as management. USFS will be required to manage snowmobiling in a manner similar to management of other ORVs.
Snowmobile enthusiasts are quite organized around strong resistance to any other use on the winter Forest unless snowmobiles are allowed there also. Anyone who questions the dominant snowmobile-lobby message is immediately showered with name-calling, strong language, disrespect.
Rhetorically, is anyone aside from snowmobile riders deserving of respect and consideration?
Thank you.
They? They will do nothing as far as management. USFS will be required to manage snowmobiling in a manner similar to management of other ORVs.
Snowmobile enthusiasts are quite organized around strong resistance to any other use on the winter Forest unless snowmobiles are allowed there also. Anyone who questions the dominant snowmobile-lobby message is immediately showered with name-calling, strong language, disrespect.
Rhetorically, is anyone aside from snowmobile riders deserving of respect and consideration?
Thank you.
I find it interesting that you call yourself a snowmobiler, but then have no clue of what you are talking about with respect to snowmobiling.
Dominant snowmobile lobby? Is that why we are constantly loosing legal riding areas?
Organized against any other use? Again, you are lying here, or maybe you just don't understand what people are saying. No one is saying other users shouldn't be out there enjoying the forests, except for you that is.
You characterizations of snowmobilers is completely inconsistent with what snowmobilers are actually saying. Maybe it is time you change you tune to what snowmobilers actual think, instead of constantly incorrectly stating what you think their beliefs are.
N
At least you're letting your true colors finally shine through.
The only 'no' is in response to your desire to take an entire riding area away from us; an area that you can readily use with very little chance of encountering snowmobiles.
We are far from organized. Referring to a snowmobile 'lobby' is laughable. But, I would like to congratulate you on doing more to unite our user group than we have managed to do on our own (in addition to increasing snowmobile traffic in the area you desperately want for yourself). Keep up the good work.
Thank you.
H
You really aren't very bright, are you?
You talk of "compromises", which the way I understand the meaning of the word, requires give and take from both sides of the argument. Yet the only give I see would be snowmobilers giving up an area out of a very small total available to them. You have nothing to give, period. You are simply a taker. Once again I ask, why should they say anything but no, you bring nothing to the table. An example of an appropriate compromise might be you get Stafford Creek and snowmobilers gain Ingalls Pass/Lake...
Once again you say you don't have a "share of the forest" yet in a previous post you claimed to "know where to go". Which is it? Like I said earlier, why not do something constructive such as make a list of accessible areas to ski, snowshoe, and, camp without the snowmobiles? and make it available to those seeking such an area. I'll even start the list: Commonwealth basin, Kendall Stump, Nason Ridge, Heather Ridge, Colchuck Lake area, Grindstone Mt, Mt Index, Mt Persis, Mt Pilchuck, Big Four, the list can go on and on...
"perhaps that could be used as leverage in the future to preserve some riding" This is my favorite quote yet. The future? So when does the "taking" end? What areas are next on the agenda? What exactly is your goal? "preserve some riding"? How about we rally and preserve all of the areas we currently have available, a very small sum. As previously stated, your 60% is both extremely flawed and misleading.
W
wtf? provide some areas for winter non-motorized use? you can use all of the non-wilderness and wilderness. we can't ride in the wilderness. thats 4,423,676 acres that non motorized recreationists can use that snowmobilers can't. but that's not enough so it's time to ban snowmobiling on USFS land?
J
Land use
What i don,t understand is me and my wife snomobile to get away from the everyday grind that working people go though.We have never entered any posted area,have followed cross country skiers on trails for miles because they will not let u bye,have helped skiers to the top of hills,injured skiers back to there cars,dont really understand why when they get lost, stranded, sledders always help them out. At rabbit ears with all the none riding areas to ski why would you even want to be close to sledders,i cannot figure that out. Why do people have to mess with other peoples enjoyment.They say it messes with there enjoyment maybe they mess with my enjoyment, you don,t here me wine about it.How much money does the guy in the subaru spent in kremmling or steamboat a weekend,i can tell you how much i spend from denver,deisel for the truck,gas for the sleds,motel for the dogs,food, etc. Why can,t you people enjoy your moment, let me enjoy mine and quit screwing with other peoples recreation.
What i don,t understand is me and my wife snomobile to get away from the everyday grind that working people go though.We have never entered any posted area,have followed cross country skiers on trails for miles because they will not let u bye,have helped skiers to the top of hills,injured skiers back to there cars,dont really understand why when they get lost, stranded, sledders always help them out. At rabbit ears with all the none riding areas to ski why would you even want to be close to sledders,i cannot figure that out. Why do people have to mess with other peoples enjoyment.They say it messes with there enjoyment maybe they mess with my enjoyment, you don,t here me wine about it.How much money does the guy in the subaru spent in kremmling or steamboat a weekend,i can tell you how much i spend from denver,deisel for the truck,gas for the sleds,motel for the dogs,food, etc. Why can,t you people enjoy your moment, let me enjoy mine and quit screwing with other peoples recreation.
W
Yes! Agreed! "An example of an appropriate compromise might be you get Stafford Creek and snowmobilers gain Ingalls Pass/Lake" (except Ingalls Lake is in Wilderness so that will never have lawful smowmobile riding).
WMC is concerned with the Wenatchee Mountains crest, yes there are other areas. Study the WWA Petition, which simply asks for management of snowmobiles in a manner similar to ORV management. After that Petition is adopted, then it is anybody's guess which groups- not WMC- will be going after any other areas.
The idea that Stafford- the closest access to the Sno Park- be made non-motorized to enlarge and improve the existing non-motorized area was first discussed by newtrout and ruffryder then by WMC. WMC learned from snowmobile folks that the areas from Longs Pass to Van Epps were the best for snowmobile riding, thus an idea for give and take. WMC asks for some area for skiers, snowshoers, winter campers, snowmobile riders consider agreeing to Stafford, in exchange WMC/ skiers go with snowmobile riders to USFS and try to present an agreement that will stand in the future, both user groups get their areas established after a genuine collaborative agreement that USFS agrees. This is the best compromise idea that results from these Forum discussions.
If the proposed WWA Petition is either adopted by USDA (USFS is under USDA) or decided by the 9th Circuit, then each area to be used for snowmobile riding will then need to have an EIS and other considerations studied before then being designated for snowmobile use. The discussion above about areas previously considered for various uses and previously designated would likely be far ahead in the process. Thus, this is the basis for the WMC discussion that collaborative agreements may benefit snowmobile riders in the future. USFS would decide to approve such a collaborative agreement, but WMC has been told it is preferred that user groups work it out before an Official decision. The alternative is as it seems to be now, user groups in all-or-nothing opposition. Collaboration and compromise is preferable.
Thank you.
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W
"Increasing snowmobile traffic"! There are so many references to 'sharing'- clearly you want to share those areas, right? The increased traffic has already occurred.
H
Sounds more like a justification (albeit lame) than a compromise...
W
The compromise is that we talk and try to work it out rather than just oppose each other and try for winner-take-all.
When snowmobile management changes per the ORV Executive Order per the WWA Petition, there will be discussion, justification, collaboration, and compromise for any area that will be designated for snowmobile use. We could get started now in collaboration and compromise, instead of your side saying "no" and WMC going for implementation of our entire proposal.
Thanks for the discussion.
W
Sure, we want a share. You guys want areas to ride. If there is no discussion other than "no" what are our choices? Go for it or surrender. Even if WMC folded, big changes are on the horizon for management of snowmobiles on Federal Lands. In the meantime, we suggest discussion, collaboration and compromise that may secure a better outcome for both rather than winner-take-all.
I suggest first starting with the truth and honesty in your posts. Meaningful discussion can only happen afterwords. Also, why are you posting on here?
Haven't you been told once already that it would be appreciated if your agenda posts would be kept to your own threads?
Not all discussions about land use need to have the WMC's input and it would be appreciated if you would keep your proposal posts to the threads that the moderators have tirelessly kept going for non-paying members.
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W
WMC is here talking about the WWA Petition. WMC associates ride snowmobiles and also have registered here to view and post this Forum.
W
ruffryder stated -
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruffryder
I caught that as well. Same topics, same points.. good old WWA. No wonder they are supporting the WMC, they have the same ideologies.
Mostly true, WMC is not involved in environmental issues, we seek management by USFS of winter recreation to provide for our use.
WMC is a signatory to the Petition.
The Petition does not 'ban' snowmobiles, although it will have a very significant impact on snowmobile riding that will cause big changes in all likelihood. We are trying to meet and talk and feel it is in your best interest if this thing passes in the long run to meet beforehand, discuss, try to collaborate, and it is in the WMC interest to try to get some winter non-motorized areas designated. Could be some win-win instead of just win-lose.
