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850 Belt life - A band aid Journey

Matte Murder

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White Rad do you ride with any Cats or Poos? Will a 17/18 Cat or Poo belt survive in the same riding conditions that your Doo won’t?
 

DITCHBANGER

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does not appear the cats have this issue, just read the ascender forum, no belt issues
 

White Rad

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White Rad do you ride with any Cats or Poos? Will a 17/18 Cat or Poo belt survive in the same riding conditions that your Doo won’t?

Last year I rode with a few guys on axis quit a bit and they did not have any issues. In fact they would normally keep going for a few more Laps when I would stop to let my belt cool down.

I also ride a lot with a guy on a 174 XM and same thing he has no issues.

I went through three XMs riding the Same way I do on the G4 and they Had acceptable belt life.

This year I mostly rode w guys on G4s and we were just taking turns scalping belts. One day at baker we realized that we carry 8 spare belts between us for for three 850s....

Unfortunately I have not had any real time riding side by side with anyone on the new cats. Hopefully next season is a good snow year and I’ll know by December how they hold up but I have high hopes of riding all day without constant fear of beltsplosions.
 
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Matte Murder

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You may have already answered this but have you tried all the easy stuff? Weights, springs, helixes etc in your group? Is anyone running a “kit” from SHR, Roosterbuilt, Indy Dan? If yes is anything giving you better belt life?
 

sledhead_24_7

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The year of the scalped belts



And I thought my blowing 8 belts and bending, gouging, nicking both the primary and secondary last season on my 17 was bad.

Then blowing 6 belts on my 18 this year. All being told by dealer and skidoo “we have no issues”

I feel for you man.

I’ll say this. Skidoo better cure their crappy motor mounts, belts, and clutches for next year. Or I’ll be gone and am sure there will many many others as well. Which is sad since Doo typically fits my style of riding best. Basically 3 seasons for a issue that “SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN A ISSUE “ come on.....
 

Chadly

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If u have to spend money on aftermarket fixes for a $13-14,000 sled that's a problem I would not put up with. Doo has a problem they need to fix, anybody that rides hard in deep snow finds it out real quick.

Yeah well when my accountant, attorney, and financial adviser told me to buy a Doo so I could spend money on belts instead of hookers and cocaine :face-icon-small-win
 

sledhead_24_7

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Anyone with a 18 scalping belts go back to the 391? Possibly softer less slipping? New belt seems hard :eyebrows:



The old 391 and new 531 are supposed to be the exact same compounds. The only confirmed difference that I could come up with is the 531 has a stronger glue to hold the cords in place. I spent 2 months tracking down that....from multiple dealers asking tech, to personally asking multiple factory techs at the snow shows. That is all I could get.

So with the stonger glue it holds until finally boom top blows off. No strings first.
 
D
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The old 391 and new 531 are supposed to be the exact same compounds. The only confirmed difference that I could come up with is the 531 has a stronger glue to hold the cords in place. I spent 2 months tracking down that....from multiple dealers asking tech, to personally asking multiple factory techs at the snow shows. That is all I could get.

So with the stronger glue it holds until finally boom top blows off. No strings first.

That was a good find!
 
A

ak

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My findings the 391 is narrower then then 531
More belt dust with the 531
More rpms with the 531
I get belt marks on my primary clutch with the 531 and not with 391 on the same clutch setup. ( this is setting proper belt deflection on both belts before use) Seems to me it’s harder and slipping possibly?

One thing I’ve noticed is there’s always water on the inside of clutch side panel haven’t figured out how it’s getting there.

Currently running ibackshift clutch kit with zrp weights and a 391 belt and the clutches are the coolest they have been all winter.
 

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Ski-doo#1

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He had a 17 that blew belts traded it for a 18 that blows belts that's more than one instance. Your just defensive that your precious skidoo has a problem and the factory has not come with a fix.

Defensive? No, clearly not as I listed possible fixes. Idk what could be more admitting to the fact that there exists an issue somewhere, in some cases.

Thank you for your experience in detail White Rad, now I can understand and do not disagree with the points you made but what's it matter, who am I anyways.

However, yes I will defend the fact that my point was missed. There is evidence of people performing any steps 1-5 or a combination and having success seeing a belt blower turn into a non-belt blower. That was really my only point. Yet there are #6s out there too, I get it. I have an '18 and will document my findings next winter.

Honestly with the conditions people describe How long is any brand sled going to last?
 

Ski-doo#1

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There comes a point people when the performance of the machines will out work the system as a whole, as we know it. We strive for that not to be the case. But above all things I will take the added performance of the 850 and less miles out of a belt any damn day. The expectations have a lower threshold for this exact reason, but still they will not stop and will always strive for better/more.
 

summ8rmk

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But above all things I will take the added performance of the 850 and less miles out of a belt any damn day.

I use to say the same about my 2009-2014 cats....
Then i got this 2018 MC. Better performance along with 4x or more belt life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It can be achieved.

Ski-doo has a real problem. Eventually they will get better just like Cat did.


 

Ski-doo#1

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I use to say the same about my 2009-2014 cats....
Then i got this 2018 MC. Better performance along with 4x or more belt life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It can be achieved.

Ski-doo has a real problem. Eventually they will get better just like Cat did.



That's what I'm saying! ??
 
D
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Defensive? No, clearly not as I listed possible fixes. Idk what could be more admitting to the fact that there exists an issue somewhere, in some cases.

Thank you for your experience in detail White Rad, now I can understand and do not disagree with the points you made but what's it matter, who am I anyways.

However, yes I will defend the fact that my point was missed. There is evidence of people performing any steps 1-5 or a combination and having success seeing a belt blower turn into a non-belt blower. That was really my only point. Yet there are #6s out there too, I get it. I have an '18 and will document my findings next winter.

Honestly with the conditions people describe How long is any brand sled going to last?


I agree, he did provide an excellent description of his type of riding. Best I've ever read. The question is, why is his belt growing too hot? I think that he gave some very good clues and I don't believe a new MAG side engine mount is going to cut it. There is something else going on with his sled.
 
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Ox

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I spoke with all the popular clutch kit guys. Maybe now that the season is over there a few out there but in the actual prime season they were all working on final calibrations and were not ready to release them. The back east guys were having a hard time even finding a 175 to work on or the snow to test it.

In between trips to Revy I spoke with roosterbuilt about getting something together to test and we just couldn't connect.

I rode with the mechanic in Revy that works with Alford and was testing things out on the 175. They were not happy enough with it to call it done last time I saw them.

The general consensus that a Softer primary spring, more weight focused on the tips, and stiffer secondary spring are very well understood. Again, I spent a lot of coin on the pro clutch tools to work the P drive and gone burnt out dealing with it when it threatened to take away epic days on the hill.

I would agree with your definition of a non belt blowing sled. Hell I'd take 300-400 miles.

Again what I'm trying to say is that belt issue is very specific to certain snow conditions. I can ride around pinned all day in 1-2 feet of snow and not hurt a belt. If thats all I rode for a week straight I would have non belt blower! But thats not what I consider deep snow.

It also makes a huge difference on how many miles guys are putting on to get to the riding zone. When your breaking trail from the parking lot and have to just hammer to gain the riding area it has a tremendous impact on the miles that belt will live vs. the guys that show up an hour later on the next day and log around 10+ miles of following tracks, or riding 20+ miles a day on groomers in some areas.

Thats great that your up to speed with the internet jockeys, the most likely user group to ride average snow in an average manner. These sleds work incredibly well for most people and I'm happy for them.

My opinion comes from talking to real life people that I see on the hill who like me are lucky enough to be able to go every day its deep and only ride when its deep (3-5ft). These people don't exist on the inter webs and your not going to see us on the weekends if its all pounded out. The general consensus from this user group is that these sleds eat belts when its deep.

People on the internets probably can't ever agree on what a "deep pow day". Too many variables. Then there is the specific quality of the snow. Denser PacNW on a 175 puts a tremendous load on the drive train. Of course riding style plays a role in belt life, but again I'm emphasizing that the belt failure rate is extreme under certain snow conditions and is compounded by a certain riding style. Given the right snow conditions I am confident I could cause a "non-belt blower" to smoke several.

There also seems to be the impression that riding around pinned WFO is what we do until a belt explodes. This is completely inaccurate. Yes there is some of this involved in breaking in a trail and there are some big mandatory climbs in some areas to get to the zones I want to ride. However from what I have seen its always on/off throttle ridding in the trees and even more specifically DOWNHILL whipped out carves that put even more hurt on the belts. Constant shifting of the clutches and constant motor movement as its loaded/unloaded put the most hurt on the belts. I seriously blow more belts going downhill when Im using the throttle to pop from one carve to the next and intentionally dive the sled as deep as I can into the next turn. Its pushing a ton of snow and the variable load on the drive train is very pronounced.

I'm glad you made your fix list. Its a very precise summary of the band aids that this thread is about.

1) Venting does very little good on deep days when they are plugged and the sled is hardly moving.

2) I have seen all the different brands of belts go up in smoke. No real trend here.

3)I made a set of custom UHMW guards that protect the belt from all possible points of contact (including under the secondary) and have analyzed the wear markes on each one. I do not believe that the belt fluttering out and hitting the clutch guard deserves the attention its getting and it did very little/nothing for me. I have seen several different versions of this "guard" on different sleds with the same results.

4) The clutch kits can help to pull some heat and slippage out of the clutches as well as gain performance. Of course someone wants to sell me one its how their business makes money. I thought it was awesome to read some very transparent posts from respected clutch gurus acknowledging that their kits do not solve some underlying issues related to belt life.

5) the box of band aids combo does not add up to a fix.

One other thing that I have seen also is that people do not take into account how different conditions are impacting there belt life before and after all the fixes. For example early season in December riding bottomless deep pow before grooming is in full effect and grenading belts. Install fixes and then go ride Revy over the holidays where there is more groomer miles and more blower snow and some more base. Bam all of sudden somewhen went 500 miles on belt and it was the band aid fixes that did it?

6) "Some sleds are just bad" So somehow Ski-doo has given me two "belt eaters" back to back? and then somehow they also made sure that all the guys I ride with on the weekdays also got the bad ones?

For the record I have only fully grenaded one belt and it was later in the season. As you can see I catch it the second a belt starts to come apart and am able to stop before it goes boom. No damage from violent explosions. This was the year of the scalp. The huge majority of the belt failures this year were from the tops getting peeled off and not fully blowing, and this is not just my sleds its the majority of people having issues. There is some good technical reading out there as why this may be the case on the 2018s and its not from hitting the belt guard.


So honestly I could not care less if you don't want to listen to what I have to say. If people don't want to acknowledge that there is a fundamental issue with theses sleds that can cause premature belt issues under certain conditions thats fine. Apparently it doesn't impact the majority of G4 owners. Im sharing real life observations and think the issues should be resolved so those truly epic days aren't ruined from scattering three belts a day.


Have you lowered your gear ratio at all?

Doo the 175's run the same gears as the shorter tracks?

(I don't know what is stock on these as I am hoping to pick one up this summer.)



.
 
A

ak

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Have you lowered your gear ratio at all?

Doo the 175's run the same gears as the shorter tracks?

(I don't know what is stock on these as I am hoping to pick one up this summer.)


There 21/53 gearing. 2.52 gear ratio on the 175 models I think there
To low geared for low altitudes.
 
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