PRO-RMK STRUCTURAL ADHESIVES: WHAT TO USE, WHERE TO GET IT

Oregonsledder · Nov 12, 2012

geo said:
Anybody try just glue and just a few rivets (to set alignment) with running boards? If the glue is as strong as thought it seems like adding the rivets is just extra weight (reason for glue?).

I am thinking of reglueing my 2013 drive shaft before use (worry wart maybe but changing drivers anyway). There looks to be about a 1/4"ish of overlap in the hexshaft to stub end interface. This is very little surface area and only 6 thrust points with zero fasteners in a very high torque application.

Wouldn't the use of the glue eliminate the need for fasteners except to align things during curetime?

Another question. Does this glue require pressure while curing? Or, do you simply need to apply enough force to stop any movement until fully cured. What is total cure time until max strength.

I’m impressed with the Lords adhesive. I suspect you could do away with the rivets in running boards, but rivets really don’t weigh anything to speak of and it’s just a little more insurance, needed or not. I don’t have any comments on the glue vs drive shaft issue.

You don’t need pressure (other than clamping pressure to insure a minimum gap between materials) heat or anything when applying the glue. It sets up in about 6 minutes depending on ambient temperature and is ready to go soon after. I would probably suggest a 24 hour cure time just to be sure. That time frame seems to be pretty common with other adhesives.

mountainhorse · Nov 12, 2012

Anybody try just glue and just a few rivets (to set alignment) with running boards? If the glue is as strong as thought it seems like adding the rivets is just extra weight (reason for glue?).

I've been advocating this for a while now... It would be stronger than just rivets as the loads are distributed over the complete lenghth of the tunnel and board... would make the chassis more rigid.

I am thinking of reglueing my 2013 drive shaft before use (worry wart maybe but changing drivers anyway). There looks to be about a 1/4"ish of overlap in the hexshaft to stub end interface. This is very little surface area and only 6 thrust points with zero fasteners in a very high torque application.

Problem is to make this assembly true again after dissassembly and truing.. you would have to have some sort of centering jig for this.. maybe in a lathe..

Wouldn't the use of the glue eliminate the need for fasteners except to align things during curetime?

Exactly... but I'd still use the 5 or so rivets on the tunnel junction for good measure.

Another question. Does this glue require pressure while curing? Or, do you simply need to apply enough force to stop any movement until fully cured.

No clamping pressure... just use the rivets... also...use the "GB" formulation of the adhesive as in 406/19GB...GB stands for glass beads.. and give a more uniform bond line.

What is total cure time until max strength.

403 = 3 minutes working time

406 = 6 minutes working time

410 = 10 minutes working time.

All the above.... 24 hour full cure time.

http://www.lord.com/Products-and-Solutions/Adhesives/Product.xml/6

geo · Nov 12, 2012

Thanx, Looking forward to new projects with just glue.

Mountainhorse, do you know if the "hex" part of the driveshaft is 3 pieces glued together or does it just appear to be that way?

AKSNOWRIDER · Nov 12, 2012

Eric left out that a slow temp bake (as long as you keep the parts aligned) will actually make the glue stronger....but you would need a well thought out jig to do so..

geo · Nov 12, 2012

AKSNOWRIDER said:
Eric left out that a slow temp bake (as long as you keep the parts aligned) will actually make the glue stronger....but you would need a well thought out jig to do so..

Was considering that too, but will wait until some info comes from Polaris on the few failures and their cause (not enough glue or poor prep or cure). I have a CE layed out on the floor and keep tripping over it lol.

Back to glueing. I have a couple of projects in mind that will add some weight to my Pro but I wish to keep it to a minimum and double up on the function by adding strength to the chassis.
Glueing should allow he use of lighter material and overlapping for strength. Tigging and fasteners would weigh more and not be as strong.

Thanx for all the info on glue.

AKSNOWRIDER · Nov 12, 2012

geo said:
Was considering that too, but will wait until some info comes from Polaris on the few failures and their cause (not enough glue or poor prep or cure). I have a CE layed out on the floor and keep tripping over it lol.

Back to glueing. I have a couple of projects in mind that will add some weight to my Pro but I wish to keep it to a minimum and double up on the function by adding strength to the chassis.
Glueing should allow he use of lighter material and overlapping for strength. Tigging and fasteners would weigh more and not be as strong.

Thanx for all the info on glue.

I do use the glue on my tunnel bracing(and highly recommend it), I do still use rivits, but more as a backup(way less amounts then I would use without glue), and mainly use them as locators to insure fit during assembly..With that said, the glue is excellent to work with, and the finished structure that results is impressive strength wise..good luck Geo, and nice to see you trying a poo out, curious to see your thoughts after a little time on it...Mike

Oregonsledder · Nov 12, 2012

geo said:
Was considering that too, but will wait until some info comes from Polaris on the few failures and their cause (not enough glue or poor prep or cure). I have a CE layed out on the floor and keep tripping over it lol.

Back to glueing. I have a couple of projects in mind that will add some weight to my Pro but I wish to keep it to a minimum and double up on the function by adding strength to the chassis.
Glueing should allow he use of lighter material and overlapping for strength. Tigging and fasteners would weigh more and not be as strong.

Thanx for all the info on glue.

Something to consider with the Lords glue. The last time I checked you can only buy the Lords 406 GB (glass bead) in the larger tubes, which requires the larger gun. If you are going to do several pretty big jobs then that makes sense, but for the average guy it makes much more sense to buy the Lords 406 (non-GB). It comes in the smaller tubes and gun. This stuff has a short shelf life so keeping any unused glue around won’t be a good idea. I have tried both the 406GB and the 406 non-GB and can’t tell the difference in strength. I suspect in very precise applications, aircraft and others, it might be the better choice, but IMHO the 406 is all you need for our snowmobile projects.

joshkoltes · Nov 23, 2012

anyone look into alternatives like loctite?
http://www.henkelna.com/adhesives/product-search-1554.htm?nodeid=8797958111233

vertical800 · Nov 23, 2012

I guess I'm kinda confused on what all I need to get for the lord's adhesive. I've got a few projects for the stuff and I'm trying to figure out all the necessary applicators, nozzles etc. I'm going to need. What did you guys get for doing it?

mountainhorse · Nov 23, 2012

Josh, That Loctite H8110 methacrylic adhesive might be a sub for LORD 406-19/GB...But I cant find the release temp, cold temp tolerance or surface prep requirements. It is glass bead filled but not recommended for bonding of anything but aluminum to aluminum to aluminum.

Vertical 800, It IS confusing huh?

I've put out another request to a few different supply houses that I hope will make a "click and order" Kit for the necessary supplies.

Meanwhile... here is a cool vid of the 50ml applicator gun and adhesive and how it goes together.

.

Cardiac Kid · Dec 1, 2012

vertical800
Here is what I ordered from Ellsworth Adhesives after a lot of research on what I needed because it isn't clear unless you have dealt with this stuff.

Dispensing Dual Pak. This is the caulk gun, the one i ordered is for the 50 ml tubes. The adhesive I orders below require a 4:1 plunger. the gun only comes with a 2:1 plunger so you need to order the 4:1 plunger for the gun in this cause. If you order a different adhesive you just need to make sure you have the right plunger and gun size for the adhesive you order.

I ordered 3 adhesive tubes for my project, part number 406/19-50. if you have read the rest of this post you will know this is the 6 min set without the glass beads. if you want the glass beads you will need all different stuff ( dispensing gun and plunger) because it comes in bigger tubes only, i think they are 350ml, and i think the mix ratio is different. but this information will be helpful in figuring out what you will need. Each of these adhesive tubes came with mixing tips, but everyone suggested to order more so the tips that go with this 50 ml 406/19 adhesive is the following, and it came in a pack of 12. (again diffident adhesive or tube size then likely different tips).
part number EA6.3-21SA

That's all you need. Hope that helps.

Dispensing gun for 50ml adhesive 1 each- part no. EA51-1 to 1/2to 1
4:1 plunger for the above gun 1 each - part no. EAPLA05-04
Adhesive 6minute set lords. ?? each- part no. 406/19 LP-50
extra mixing tips for the above 1 pack - part no. EA6.3-21SA

mountainhorse · Dec 1, 2012

Cardiac Kid...Awesome post... thanks for putting in the effort so other readers can benefiit!!

The problem that I'm running into is that not one source has all that is needed.

I prefer to stick with the Glass Bead as that will give more consistent bond line thickness when using rivets or bolts in conjunction with the adhesive.

The 406-19/GB is avail in the 50ML tubes
Click this link..

It comes in GRAY
http://www.chemical-concepts.com/lord-406-19gb-gray-4-1-lord-pak-50.html

And RED
http://www.chemical-concepts.com/lord-406-19gb-red-4-1-lord-pak-50.html

mountainhorse · Dec 1, 2012

I found cool dispenser guns from Amazon for the 50ml tubes that has all the diff plungers including the 4:1 plunger for the 406-19/GB.

http://www.amazon.com/MR-50-True-50ml-Cartridge-Systems/dp/B001SN7RHM

The vid above shows this gun going together with the 406-19 and the 4:1 plunger.

FCR112 · Dec 1, 2012

Thanks for giving us a comprehensive answer to the question of what exactly is needed to get the job done Cardiac Kid.

Best post regarding Lord adhesive yet!

Greatly appreciated.

Cardiac Kid said:
vertical800
Here is what I ordered from Ellsworth Adhesives after a lot of research on what I needed because it isn't clear unless you have dealt with this stuff.

Dispensing Dual Pak. This is the caulk gun, the one i ordered is for the 50 ml tubes. The adhesive I orders below require a 4:1 plunger. the gun only comes with a 2:1 plunger so you need to order the 4:1 plunger for the gun in this cause. If you order a different adhesive you just need to make sure you have the right plunger and gun size for the adhesive you order.

I ordered 3 adhesive tubes for my project, part number 406/19-50. if you have read the rest of this post you will know this is the 6 min set without the glass beads. if you want the glass beads you will need all different stuff ( dispensing gun and plunger) because it comes in bigger tubes only, i think they are 350ml, and i think the mix ratio is different. but this information will be helpful in figuring out what you will need. Each of these adhesive tubes came with mixing tips, but everyone suggested to order more so the tips that go with this 50 ml 406/19 adhesive is the following, and it came in a pack of 12. (again diffident adhesive or tube size then likely different tips).
part number EA6.3-21SA

That's all you need. Hope that helps.

Dispensing gun for 50ml adhesive 1 each- part no. EA51-1 to 1/2to 1
4:1 plunger for the above gun 1 each - part no. EAPLA05-04
Adhesive 6minute set lords. ?? each- part no. 406/19 LP-50
extra mixing tips for the above 1 pack - part no. EA6.3-21SA

vertical800 · Dec 1, 2012

Thanks for posting this up. It's really helped me figure out what i need to get.

geo · Dec 2, 2012

I went to see a friend of a friend in the body business. They have been working with this stuff for years and are constantly visited by sales reps dropping off catalogs and even samples.

After a short discussion he offered advice, tools, tubes, and help. He had all the material safety data sheets and manufacturers specs in a binder at his desk from many suppliers. Biggest deal for me was he knew where to get what in my town.

Maybe you have a friendly body guy in your town.

Rick! · Dec 2, 2012

Matte Murder said:
What is the right clean up chemical for the Lord glue? I was thinking of dropping the Clecos in a cup of this cleaner right when I take them off to try and salvage them from the glue.

try wine or whiskey - they are supposed to be 406's kryptonite...

On another note, seems LORD has been doing some testing, see attachment.

mountainhorse · Dec 2, 2012

Rick!,

That's similar to what they said before.

The big thing is the fixturing.

I wonder if a PRO RMK complete chassis assembly would need to be fixtured or if it is held sufficiently with bolts and rivets to allow typical racking of a chassis used in a powder coating facility.

Secondly, I wonder what the potential for over-aging (loss of heat treating properties) of the alloys used in the cast and sheet metal components are. Especially with many of the powder coat shops not equipped to monitor soak time and temperature.

I'd be less worried about the bond-line re solidification strengths than I would be about structural integrity of the chassis or other component being compromised from "over baking" the part.

Questions I'd want confidence in the answers to before I'd take a risk with such an expensive part that could fail on me when I need it the most.

.

joshkoltes · Dec 22, 2012

http://www.mcmaster.com/
Mcmasters got the lord 406-19 dosnt look like the glass bead but I'm going to go with it. They have the dispenser and plunger as well and can order one cartridge at a time.
I need some other stuff from them anyway so I'll save a tad on shipping

cerhai · Mar 14, 2015

bringing this back from the dead, I have found a company that has a kit for everything we need $45 bucks shipped http://www.chemical-concepts.com/snow-mobile-repair-kit-1.html

PRO-RMK STRUCTURAL ADHESIVES: WHAT TO USE, WHERE TO GET IT

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