Silber and Boondocker Owners Wanted!!! Money Back Guarantee...

snow4shover · Dec 6, 2012

Well according to Vi-pec.com the only ECUs that can close loop are the higher dollar car standalones like the V-44 and V-88. The one they list for the Pro has no options for Closed Loop. I talk to Push Turbo and he mention they only Close Loop at WOT.

Vi-PEC Powersports · Dec 6, 2012

snow4shover said:
Well according to Vi-pec.com the only ECUs that can close loop are the higher dollar car standalones like the V-44 and V-88. The one they list for the Pro has no options for Closed Loop. I talk to Push Turbo and he mention they only Close Loop at WOT.

The rmk ecu uses our new top board wich now drive the v88 and v44. Is the rmk ecu capable of going close loop on fueling(autotune)? Yes,
is it a good idea? No.
Once your programming is done, all the compensation features are doing the job at compensating for barometric changes, engine coolant temperature,intake air temperature(IAT), exhaust gas temperature( egt) , crank sensor, throttle position sensor(tps)ect..... When you can program all those compensations, why would you go close loop on only on sensor( what if it fail??) ? ..... Doesn t make sens. Not one production car/truck in the world is operating on close loop fueling, we have enough respect for the automotive manufacturer's engineers/tuners for us not trying to re-invent the wheel.... It is an oem proven strategy.
Knock sensor calibration done as we speak and incorporated in all turbo kit manufacturer mapping now. Guys like cody and turbo performance are aware and will enable the knock function for silber and boondocker and any other turbo/performance builder.

Vi-pec powersports

snow4shover · Dec 6, 2012

PRECISION E.F.I. said:
The rmk ecu uses our new top board wich now drive the v88 and v44. Is the rmk ecu capable of going close loop on fueling(autotune)? Yes,
is it a good idea? No.
Once your programming is done, all the compensation features are doing the job at compensating for barometric changes, engine coolant temperature,intake air temperature(IAT), exhaust gas temperature( egt) , crank sensor, throttle position sensor(tps)ect..... When you can program all those compensations, why would you go close loop on only on sensor( what if it fail??) ? ..... Doesn t make sens. Not one production car/truck in the world is operating on close loop fueling, we have enough respect for the automotive manufacturer's engineers/tuners for us not trying to re-invent the wheel.... It is an oem proven strategy.
Knock sensor calibration done as we speak and incorporated in all turbo kit manufacturer mapping now. Guys like cody and turbo performance are aware and will enable the knock function for silber and boondocker and any other turbo/performance builder.
Vi-pec powersports

Geno....Geno...Geno...OMG :doh:

You can't be serious.........You are stating that no Automotive Manufacture is using close loop? Ever since the introduction of an Lambda Sensor by the Automotive Manufacture there has been some sort of control algorithm in the stock ECU that uses Close Loop and most used a narrow band sensor. There are some manufactures that are actually using a Wideband O2 Sensor for input to their control algorithm.

Here is just a couple of links that validates manufactures using a Wideband O2 Sensor with the Stock ECU and these are lower end manufactures.
VW Applications - Same Sensor Innovate uses
Subaru Applications - Same Sensor AEM uses

Vi-PEC Powersports · Dec 6, 2012

All vehicule uses o2 sensors ( and some uses more than one) BUT they are not using them CLOSE LOOP in their fuel tables!! , in the automotive industry, most refer to the o2 sensor for safety and pollution issues. When your o2 sensor fail on your truck/car, is it running bad, is it sputtering, are you blowing your engine? No of course because the fuel table is open loop with the o2 and refer to it only when needed(tuning strategies).

Vi-pec powersports

Wheel House Motorsports · Dec 6, 2012

I have a hard time believing you have close loop working(effectively) just on how hard you are bashing it. Yes, you should have a base map and comp tables that your not going to be adjusting massive amounts based on O2 input.

As for your comments regarding automotive ecu fueling. Have you been around a car in the last 20 years? Driving around with any cheapo OBDII reader you can watch it trimming fuel from the base map based on the o2 sensor input as your out driving, im not sure what you consider "closed loop" but if the ECU is making live fueling trims based on O2 sensor input, thats what the rest of the world calls closed loop. and they only reference the sensor for pollution purposes?? YEAH DUH!!!

PRECISION E.F.I. said:
All vehicule uses o2 sensors ( and some uses more than one) BUT they are not using them CLOSE LOOP in their fuel tables!! , in the automotive industry, most refer to the o2 sensor for safety and pollution issues.

HOW do you adjust your NOx output on a car without touching the fueling?!?!?!

When your o2 sensor fail on your truck/car, is it running bad, is it sputtering, are you blowing your engine? No of course because the fuel table is open loop with the o2 and refer to it only when needed(tuning strategies)

If you unplug the O2 sensor they default to open loop and will run richer as they are mapped rich and use the O2 to TRIM! . will they run like crap and chug and perform poorly? YES, seen it firsthand. Will it blow up?? NO! blowing up a NA 4 stroke motor just by poor fueling is something to be impressed with, especially from being rich.

Gino, every time you post you continue to reinforce a lack of understanding of SO many fundamental EFI principles.:face-icon-small-con

keep up the good work:yo:

TurboM700 · Dec 6, 2012

PRECISION E.F.I. said:
All vehicule uses o2 sensors ( and some uses more than one) BUT they are not using them CLOSE LOOP in their fuel tables!! , in the automotive industry, most refer to the o2 sensor for safety and pollution issues. When your o2 sensor fail on your truck/car, is it running bad, is it sputtering, are you blowing your engine? No of course because the fuel table is open loop with the o2 and refer to it only when needed(tuning strategies).

Vi-pec powersports

Ummm your so far wrong its not even funny.

Every auto manufacture I know use them closed loop. I can hook up my snap-on scanner and once the vehicle is warmed up it will go into closed loop.

Automotive they use what they call long term and short term fuel trims or adaptations. If they see over a giving period of time the long term going out of range they will set the check engine light.

This is where this get different between different auto makers. Most at this time will go into some kind of open loop and run off of a set parameter. Some will continue to monitor the long term trims and if they stop moving and are just off set then they will go into closed loop and leave the check engine light on.

The reason the are using closed loop has todo with emissions.

I could go one for hrs on how a car computers controls spark and fuel trim if you would like.

Heck they were using cloosed loop fuel controls on the old quadrajunk carbs back on the TA.

Vi-PEC Powersports · Dec 6, 2012

TurboM700 said:
Ummm your so far wrong its not even funny.

don't forget we are talking about going close loop 100% on a 2 cylinder 2 stroke sled fitted with a wideband o2 sensor!!!

Every auto manufacture I know use them closed loop. I can hook up my snap-on scanner and once the vehicle is warmed up it will go into closed loop.
you are right about going close loop, but forgeting a lot of stuff: under accelaration it goes open loop, decelarating goes open loop, cold engine open loop.....so basicaly the af sensor is " monitoring a/f mixture accordingly to an AFR target table" ....but it is not CLOSED LOOP 100% based on a single sensor(much more complicated)

Automotive they use what they call long term and short term fuel trims or adaptations. If they see over a giving period of time the long term going out of range they will set the check engine light.
you are right again....didn't want to explane this to mr.everybody on snowest......the logic behind fueling a car/truck is far more complex than that and you know this i'm sure.

This is where this get different between different auto makers. Most at this time will go into some kind of open loop and run off of a set parameter. Some will continue to monitor the long term trims and if they stop moving and are just off set then they will go into closed loop and leave the check engine light on.
again, they are not going 100% close loop on one af sensor.....way more complex but you have a good way to synthesize the explanation.....in a way that i can't do for sure(language)

The reason the are using closed loop has todo with emissions.
you are right also, they need to be as precise as possible on the mixture (as lean as possible) and keep a balance for emissions and reliability.
I could go one for hrs on how a car computers controls spark and fuel trim if you would like.
me too!

Heck they were using cloosed loop fuel controls on the old quadrajunk carbs back on the TA.
this i don't know !!

basicaly, what i am trying to tell you,snow4shover and ski-doin is simply it is not a good idea to go close loop 100% on a small 2 cylinder 2 stroke(oil in the fuel) using an o2 sensor when emissions is not our main priority.Too much garbage going through the exhaust and can't simply rely on 1 sensor too much exposed to too much debris.

Vi-PEC Powersports · Dec 6, 2012

Ski-Dooin it said:
I have a hard time believing you have close loop working(effectively) just on how hard you are bashing it.

Bashing it ?? i do not agree on relying on one afr sensor in order not to burn down my sled, 100% close loop on an o2 is not a good idea......

about close loop:

Wheel House Motorsports · Dec 6, 2012

PRECISION E.F.I. said:
basicaly, what i am trying to tell you,snow4shover and ski-doin is simply it is not a good idea to go close loop 100% on a small 2 cylinder 2 stroke(oil in the fuel)]

because any of us said ANYTHING about 100% closed loop.....:face-icon-small-dis I know its not practical, there are tons of issues, especially on these tiny exhaust systems at low throttle there can be major reversion issues in the exhaust.

BUT for high load situations, say 3/4 throttle or more, if you have the ability i have no clue why you wouldnt use it?:doh:

Vi-PEC Powersports · Dec 6, 2012

Ski-Dooin it said:
BUT for high load situations, say 3/4 throttle or more, if you have the ability i have no clue why you wouldnt use it?:doh:

hi load and hi tps % = high risk if sensor fail and hi damages also.

TurboM700 · Dec 6, 2012

Precsions is right under full load automotive go to open loop. But I have never seeing one go into open loop under decal, and todays are will get into closed loop in the mater of mins when first started up cold. They do this a few different ways one is to keep the up stream 02 sensor close the the manifolds and the other is to run them really rich on cold start up so the Cat come up to temp quick.

As far as turbo 2-strokes and closed loop I really cant see it happening and I really see no need for it. We are not after emissions we are after HP and I belive this can be created with non closed loop.

Precision I'm happy to see someone finally stepping up to the plate and offering a true ECM that you can play with the paramters with in.

Know if only you can get the price down a little bit on them. I have a hard time swallowing a 1500 dollar investment into a sled that is maybe worth 10k.

Sorry for the derail. Only reason I commented in the post was just to say cars do use closed loop.

WE NEED SNOW!!!!!

Mike

Vi-PEC Powersports · Dec 6, 2012

TurboM700 said:
Precsions is right under full load automotive go to open loop. But I have never seeing one go into open loop under decal, and todays are will get into closed loop in the mater of mins when first started up cold. They do this a few different ways one is to keep the up stream 02 sensor close the the manifolds and the other is to run them really rich on cold start up so the Cat come up to temp quick.

As far as turbo 2-strokes and closed loop I really cant see it happening and I really see no need for it. We are not after emissions we are after HP and I belive this can be created with non closed loop.

Precision I'm happy to see someone finally stepping up to the plate and offering a true ECM that you can play with the paramters with in.

Know if only you can get the price down a little bit on them. I have a hard time swallowing a 1500 dollar investment into a sled that is maybe worth 10k.

Sorry for the derail. Only reason I commented in the post was just to say cars do use closed loop.

WE NEED SNOW!!!!!

Mike

No problem Mike for the derail.....we try to keep it short on explanations in a forum like this and god knows how complex E.F.I. is...... the same 2-3 dude come very often trying to put us in a bad position :face-icon-small-win, never successful. .......creating that ECU took 2 years of r&d but still some guys playing around with + and - buttons are still trying to show us how to tune....we still have a lot to learn in the E.F.I. department but from qualified gurus!!
p.s.: imagine going close loop at 3/4 throttle at 10lbs and o2 fail.....big hole in the crank case and in your wallet!

TurboM700 · Dec 6, 2012

Exactly not a good idea. Speical since when a 02 sensor fails it goes lean or gets lazy in reading and you can react fast enough. We all know how quickly 2-strokes go from happy, happy, happy to boom.

The big thing I'm seeing that I'm liking is the abilty to control timing. Add it on the bottom end and pull it on the top end. Timing is what is killing the turbo motors not open or closed loop.

Just sent you a PM with some questions.

Mike

TurboM700 · Dec 6, 2012

Exactly not a good idea. Speical since when a 02 sensor fails it goes lean or gets lazy in reading and you can react fast enough. We all know how quickly 2-strokes go from happy, happy, happy to boom.

The big thing I'm seeing that I'm liking is the abilty to control timing. Add it on the bottom end and pull it on the top end. Timing is what is killing the turbo motors not open or closed loop.

Just sent you a PM with some questions.

Mike

Cody Phillips Racing · Dec 7, 2012

Guys,

I apologize as I have not been able to field calls the last two days. Been sick with the flu, so if you called me and weren't able to get through you're welcome to try me over the weekend or the first part of next week.

THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO DISCUSS CAPABILITIES OF THE ECU. THIS IS A PROMOTION FOR SILBER/BOONDOCKER CUSTOMERS. PLEASE KEEP IN ON TOPIC.

SSWIM · Dec 7, 2012

Cody Phillips Racing said:
Guys,

I apologize as I have not been able to field calls the last two days. Been sick with the flu, so if you called me and weren't able to get through you're welcome to try me over the weekend or the first part of next week.

THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO DISCUSS CAPABILITIES OF THE ECU. THIS IS A PROMOTION FOR SILBER/BOONDOCKER CUSTOMERS. PLEASE KEEP IN ON TOPIC.

Crap Cody, my old girl brought the flu to you. Sorry about that. She has been known to be cantankerous. Hope you get to feeling better.:face-icon-small-ton:face-icon-small-coo

Sam

Cody Phillips Racing · Dec 10, 2012

Well the FINALLY got some snow over here in Utah...........

I got a chance to get over my flu and took the time to install the Vipec in Sam's sled and went riding yesterday. I can tell you this sled runs as good or better than stock. Fires up all the time, great mid range, bottom end power, and not hesitations. I made a base map that I thought would work and fired the sled up, put it on the trailer and headed for the hills. It took about 30-40 minutes of me riding the sled to get the tuning sorted out. After that the laptop just stayed in the backpack for the rest of the day and I enjoyed riding. This thing didn't skip a beat. I was impressed with how the turbo kit handled overall and how the clutching was setup.

I HAD a Go Pro mounted to the front of the sled and HAD some great footage. I filled a 32GB card UP!! But when I went to turn it off for the last time, I looked down and this is what I saw..........arrrgh so frustrated!

04C43DBA-70D7-4C38-B9AC-CA57D17CCC78-1427-0000009FA19C4018.jpg

I did manage to get some vids with my iPhone, however it kept shutting off because it was so damn cold up there. I'm going to try and get back up there this week to work with some other customers and take this sled along. I'll be sure to figure out a way to get some more video, but for now.........here's some teasers

Thanks for all the inquires and support so far. I believe we're about full on our money back guarantee inquires. So if you're on the fence, give Bryce, Josh, or me a call and let's discuss how we can get a vipec on your sled.

Whether it's a Turbo Performance, Silber, Boondocker, HM, Push, etc. We can help you!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1nRZ9y0lag

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txMwTUkovDs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6sMF4DmGRA

SSWIM · Dec 10, 2012

Looks and sounds great Cody. Can't wait to put her in the snow. Really stinks about the Gopro. I was looking forward to some video. Maybe wednesday you can get some more.

Thanks again.
Sam

Wheel House Motorsports · Dec 10, 2012

SSWIM said:
Looks and sounds great Cody.

:face-icon-small-con

you can barely hear the thing and all the video shows is the thing will idle and pull WOT up a hill. tuning in a sled that holds WOT properly is like 5% of your tuning. Im not saying i dont think it runs good, and i know the gopro thing sucks but those videos showed nothing profound...:sorry:

SSWIM · Dec 10, 2012

Ski-Dooin it said:
:face-icon-small-con

you can barely hear the thing and all the video shows is the thing will idle and pull WOT up a hill. tuning in a sled that holds WOT properly is like 5% of your tuning. Im not saying i dont think it runs good, and i know the gopro thing sucks but those videos showed nothing profound...:sorry:

??? No bash here, Why the negativity. I CAN hear the sled in the one video. It is MY sled and I know how it ran, and I CAN hear what it is running like now on bottom. I have also been talking to Cody on the phone regarding the sled. I see no reason for your post. It is in NO way providing ANY input regarding MY sled. If you feel the need to add further information regarding MY sled that is great, as long as you provide first hand info, and you are seeing results personally. Again, no bash, just do not see the need to turn this thread into a mess. Cody is working diligently to tune my sled and I appreciate his effort.

Thanks
Sam

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