The lightning weights are on his facebook page but not on the website. Really curious if they truly are the same radius.
TRS Clutching [ PART FOUR ]
- Thread starter diamonddave
- Start date
Is the clutching setup noted on part 1 page 1 the final setup you are running Tory? Or did you stick with some changes that you tried throughout the thread? I'm looking at going with a tki belt drive to hit that 2.3 drive ratio.
If you read these four threads and the lighting weights versus indy.
There is a picture posted somewhere that shows the different "tuck" of the indy spec weight.
I understand there are different versions of the indy weight.
Maybe soneone can post pics of the different versions.
There is a picture posted somewhere that shows the different "tuck" of the indy spec weight.
I understand there are different versions of the indy weight.
Maybe soneone can post pics of the different versions.
So the TCP weight is different than the regular tip weight pictured?
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I maybe can chime in with some more "intel" into this matter. I've been in contact with Indy and they are currently making a better "copy" of the original lightning weights, due to my request of some kits. So stay tuned for that.
Man you really made some gains on getting those springs rates down!!
Radius is the same.
I see someone mentioned they would like the 10 series heel so they didn't have to shim.
** However opon special request i also have the Lightening weights with the lower heel ** -- BUT THE DRIVE CLUTCH MUST BE SHIMMED FOR THEM --
I have the Lightening weights with a higher heel so don't have to shim...........BUT if thats what you want the primary spring rate front number has to go up 20 to get simlar engagement.
And you have to understand that the entire shift curve will be slightly different ** Most people won't know the difference **
And its a throttle response difference ** if you increase the primary spring rate to get the exact same engagemnet number the throttle response when in and out of the throttle in the tress will still be slightly less responsive.
There is no free lunch so to speak.
The Turbo 3 weight fits the slot of the best combo of great low end throttle response like the Lightening without the requirement of re-shimming...... even thou the Turbo 3 works even better of shimmed slightly tighter then the OEM shimming.
Tony is an exceptional rider and he Likes really good throttle response and he has the talent to use it. ** Most Flatland mountain riders cannot utilize that type of quickness like Tony does.
5000 Mountain miles per year ** not everyone can say they have that option. **
Dan
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A brief explaination of the what why,
There is and always will be a tremendous amount of confusion ( between what people want for a clutching feeling and what in fact is really going on in th clutches to create that feeling. )
Customer Example - 1 - I want low end throttle response with fast back shift - that equates to a tucked weight that has modest side pressure down low and the weight comes off the heel pad slower ( giving a REVY feeling ) plus the full square tip has a few grams of weight below the pin falcrum. Which also adds to the REVY feeling with a soft spring.
This a Cat weight or Lightening weight example in a Polaris clutch..... Shimmed correctly. ( the REVY feeling comes from the weight being tucked closer to the pin fulcrum.... The weight comes out slower and slips the belt.... Giving the REVY feeling......Yes I said belt slipping. ( also both the cat weights & Lightening weights in a Polaris clutch perform poorly in reverse )....... Especially in the morning when the sled has sat outside over night and it's extremely cold. ( notice I kept saying in a Polaris clutch shimmed correctly * meaning weight and roller touching * ) Polaris clutches trap the weight between the heel pad and the roller. Polaris Belt to sheave clearance decided by shims under the spider. * because.. And this is important to understand..... Polaris spider shims O.D.'s are smaller then the moveable sheave bushing diameter so the shims pass through allowing the moveable sheave to present the weight surface to touch the roller of the spider.
Cat clutch spider shim diameter O.D.'s are larger then the moveable bushing I.D.'s which means the moveable sheave contacts the first shim ( meaning the lowest shim on the stack when assembling the clutch ) which also means that the amount of shims used in a cat clutch does not effect belt to sheave clearance..... However it does change the amount of weight float..... And the amount of spring pressure needed to operate the clutch keeps going up the more shims you add.
Which also means that a cat weight and a lightening weight in a Cat clutch shimmed like a Cat clutch with weight float will not give you a REVY feeling like it does in a Polaris clutch.
Customer Example - 2 - I want low-end grunt, hard pulling and velvet smooth engagement ( all I can say is MTX Starting Line weight ) - high heel...... Lots of weight back by the pin..... Weight sits taller...... Much more weight above the pin fulcrum..... Needs much stronger springs to hold it back.... Almost no belt slippage...... Poor throttle response because the clutch hooks the belt up quicker....... Great in reverse..... When it's cold outside. Velvet smooth in the trees... Operates more like a tractor...... No REVY Feel .
We must all MUST understand this important diffence...... In CVT clutch systems..... So you can make an intelligent purchase to fit what you like.
To simplify what I said above....... Which requires much more explaining... I might attempt this next summer.
In short...... The main different between a cat & Polaris drive clutch ( as far as feel goes ) is the distance measured between the spider roller center line to the stationary sheave.... ( or fixed sheave) on the crank.
In a Polaris clutch the spider is closer to the stationary sheave..... And the weight rests on the roller in neutral.... Allowing for the clutch to operate with less spring.
Keep in mind I have not mentioned roller center line to post center line.... Which is a whole other story.
The Lightening weight & The Turbo 3 weights typically act somewhat similar in throttle response... The design of the turbo weight allows For great throttle response without having to shim the spider..... The #2 hole or what I call the lower turbo hole allows you to Taylor your throttle response.
The Turbo 3 weight will most often pull harder at 76grams then a conventional weight will pull at 83 grams, the reason it can do this is because it was design exclusively for a turbo.
Less weight towards the pin ( pre-boost ) and lots of adjustable weight towards the tip ( post-boost ) where it is needed.
And the lower tip #2 hole helps with low end ( pre-boost ) throttle response, and then ( post-boost ) high belt clamping pressure... Great for belt life .
All most be match with the correct springs and helix for said customer geographic location and rider preference.
One also must understand that when you target belt life as I have done with my Turbo 3 kits.....where belt clamping is my main goal..... There is some low to mid-range acceleration left on the table.... Which is also done on purpose...... Most riders can't handle a turbo in the Trees if you shift it faster.
There are few turbo riders that can handle more lower shift speed, The Turbo 3 Kit We build is not designed for TRS Tony, Jack@carls, or Chris Brandt...... It's designed for the masses.
There is literally many pages more to this, and its much more complex then just this..........and it is so over flapping, and then what applies to one person is void to a different person.
So i leave you with just a small amount of insite into clutching.
Dan
There is and always will be a tremendous amount of confusion ( between what people want for a clutching feeling and what in fact is really going on in th clutches to create that feeling. )
Customer Example - 1 - I want low end throttle response with fast back shift - that equates to a tucked weight that has modest side pressure down low and the weight comes off the heel pad slower ( giving a REVY feeling ) plus the full square tip has a few grams of weight below the pin falcrum. Which also adds to the REVY feeling with a soft spring.
This a Cat weight or Lightening weight example in a Polaris clutch..... Shimmed correctly. ( the REVY feeling comes from the weight being tucked closer to the pin fulcrum.... The weight comes out slower and slips the belt.... Giving the REVY feeling......Yes I said belt slipping. ( also both the cat weights & Lightening weights in a Polaris clutch perform poorly in reverse )....... Especially in the morning when the sled has sat outside over night and it's extremely cold. ( notice I kept saying in a Polaris clutch shimmed correctly * meaning weight and roller touching * ) Polaris clutches trap the weight between the heel pad and the roller. Polaris Belt to sheave clearance decided by shims under the spider. * because.. And this is important to understand..... Polaris spider shims O.D.'s are smaller then the moveable sheave bushing diameter so the shims pass through allowing the moveable sheave to present the weight surface to touch the roller of the spider.
Cat clutch spider shim diameter O.D.'s are larger then the moveable bushing I.D.'s which means the moveable sheave contacts the first shim ( meaning the lowest shim on the stack when assembling the clutch ) which also means that the amount of shims used in a cat clutch does not effect belt to sheave clearance..... However it does change the amount of weight float..... And the amount of spring pressure needed to operate the clutch keeps going up the more shims you add.
Which also means that a cat weight and a lightening weight in a Cat clutch shimmed like a Cat clutch with weight float will not give you a REVY feeling like it does in a Polaris clutch.
Customer Example - 2 - I want low-end grunt, hard pulling and velvet smooth engagement ( all I can say is MTX Starting Line weight ) - high heel...... Lots of weight back by the pin..... Weight sits taller...... Much more weight above the pin fulcrum..... Needs much stronger springs to hold it back.... Almost no belt slippage...... Poor throttle response because the clutch hooks the belt up quicker....... Great in reverse..... When it's cold outside. Velvet smooth in the trees... Operates more like a tractor...... No REVY Feel .
We must all MUST understand this important diffence...... In CVT clutch systems..... So you can make an intelligent purchase to fit what you like.
To simplify what I said above....... Which requires much more explaining... I might attempt this next summer.
In short...... The main different between a cat & Polaris drive clutch ( as far as feel goes ) is the distance measured between the spider roller center line to the stationary sheave.... ( or fixed sheave) on the crank.
In a Polaris clutch the spider is closer to the stationary sheave..... And the weight rests on the roller in neutral.... Allowing for the clutch to operate with less spring.
Keep in mind I have not mentioned roller center line to post center line.... Which is a whole other story.
The Lightening weight & The Turbo 3 weights typically act somewhat similar in throttle response... The design of the turbo weight allows For great throttle response without having to shim the spider..... The #2 hole or what I call the lower turbo hole allows you to Taylor your throttle response.
The Turbo 3 weight will most often pull harder at 76grams then a conventional weight will pull at 83 grams, the reason it can do this is because it was design exclusively for a turbo.
Less weight towards the pin ( pre-boost ) and lots of adjustable weight towards the tip ( post-boost ) where it is needed.
And the lower tip #2 hole helps with low end ( pre-boost ) throttle response, and then ( post-boost ) high belt clamping pressure... Great for belt life .
All most be match with the correct springs and helix for said customer geographic location and rider preference.
One also must understand that when you target belt life as I have done with my Turbo 3 kits.....where belt clamping is my main goal..... There is some low to mid-range acceleration left on the table.... Which is also done on purpose...... Most riders can't handle a turbo in the Trees if you shift it faster.
There are few turbo riders that can handle more lower shift speed, The Turbo 3 Kit We build is not designed for TRS Tony, Jack@carls, or Chris Brandt...... It's designed for the masses.
There is literally many pages more to this, and its much more complex then just this..........and it is so over flapping, and then what applies to one person is void to a different person.
So i leave you with just a small amount of insite into clutching.
Dan
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Be honest with yourself.
We do hundrerds and hundreds of drive clutches per season.
many just service Balance.
But lots of set ups also, Our webisite has a work request sheet that asks for lots of info such as weight, riding style, elevation, track length, lug height.
Our focus is rarely ULTIMATE performance for 20 below zero, sea-level with a 65 pound rider.
Number one thought is smoothness and belt life.
Number two is fitting the clutches to that rider.
Racing your buddy on a flat trail with mountain sled is never thought about.
If you race your friend on your mountain sled on a flat trail and win chances are you will get your butt kicked on the mountain. and you will buy alot of belts.
Dan
We do hundrerds and hundreds of drive clutches per season.
many just service Balance.
But lots of set ups also, Our webisite has a work request sheet that asks for lots of info such as weight, riding style, elevation, track length, lug height.
Our focus is rarely ULTIMATE performance for 20 below zero, sea-level with a 65 pound rider.
Number one thought is smoothness and belt life.
Number two is fitting the clutches to that rider.
Racing your buddy on a flat trail with mountain sled is never thought about.
If you race your friend on your mountain sled on a flat trail and win chances are you will get your butt kicked on the mountain. and you will buy alot of belts.
Dan
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Dan what belt to sheave clearance do you shim the spider to?
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That has changed over the past years...........
Back in the 1980's - I use to shim my own personal clutchess between .000 to .005 thou to the widest part of a NEW belt. ** NEVER A USED BELT ** then would start the sled and drive it with no idling until I had 50 to 100 miles on the belt to wear the first .010 off the belt.
That was 3 cylinder days.... low torque low belt heat flatland running.
Now you take high torque twins and mountains.... We shimmed to the .020 to .030 range.
To big For my liken, but I has Been proven that any tighter and there can be trouble.
But also you can run into the person that doesn't know how to adjust his belt deflection and he thinks the sheaves are draging the sides..... and really its because it now has a new belt and the driven was never set correctly.... and the belts choked up to tight.
lots of little things matter in the clutches.
Dan
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Hey guys, I have a 12 pro riding 5-7k feet @ approx 6 or 7#, following the original post I bought the springs eecommended and going to try my current adjustable weights however I put the secondary spring in that's recommended. I see the sled has a probable stock helix, being a 67/65 straight I believe it was labeled. with the softer secondary spring will i have issues til running that until I get the 46 32 helix? . Will I have belt slipping issues? Should I just put the original spring back in the secondary for now?
Thanks!
Thanks!
You have to use the spring and the helix in conjunction. The soft spring and a 65° helix will slip the belt horribly.
Almost all adjustable weights have a 10 series curve and tuck, and won't work well with the secondary as described in the thread. I'd either run what you have or run the full TRS setup, don't mix and match.
Thanks for the reply, that's what I got thinking after I got it all back together, doh! And Ok I getcha on the weights. I'm pretty green to the whole clutching thing, usually tinkered lightly and never had too much for issue, but this sled has been a whole nother thing for me. Otherwise the clutching setup on the first start of the trs clutching should work fairly well for me? I did read through up to part 2 last night and many know their stuff and also called it doggy to them for their elevation, I'm not picky my self, just want decent response and belt life. I'm coming off a yamaha apex that had like 3 or 4 seconds of lag.... Mid mount turbo + exhaust leaks caused some of that. This pro is way quicker already haha but the apex rated it when it got moving of course. Thanks!
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