Continued for all to see and participate.
Asking for riders' input about winter non-motorized areas (PART 4)
- Thread starter rmk2112
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Its called due process, its both sides legal right...BY LAW. You are doing the same thing in your own way. If you continue to slander highly respected organizations (SAWS, WSSA, etc) that have served and operated for years in efforts to not only preserve snowmobilers rights, but help protect the areas we ALL share, then your time here is very limited.
I will ask you again to answer the simple questions that have been posed to you. Step out from behind your veil in Kennewick, your "group" persona as WMC and talk to us as the "person" you claim to be........ a concerned citizen wanting the best for your sport.
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what is the bold?
I guess that didn't come out right, It was in NO way meant as a threat.
............then your ability to post here will be limited. (Everyone has the right to post here, but slanderous comments of lawful & respected organizations can't be allowed)
Posts from TAY..
It is hilarious to think that SAWS is well funded, and WSSA too for that matter, in comparisons to the national organizations like Winter Wildlands Alliance and the Mountaineers.
It is sad to see these misrepresentations being made by the WMC.
Please keep this discussion civil and truthful.
Thank you.
You have to be kidding me with these statements. You know very little about these organizations, and yet you claim to know about their funding? The WMC should know better to make accusations like these. Snowombilers are interested in discussing the needs of all users. Is the WMC is no longer interested in this discussion?WMC said:
It is hilarious to think that SAWS is well funded, and WSSA too for that matter, in comparisons to the national organizations like Winter Wildlands Alliance and the Mountaineers.
It is sad to see these misrepresentations being made by the WMC.
True? Based on what? A good share of the Wilderness? These baseless accusations and statements are getting tiring.WMC said:
Please keep this discussion civil and truthful.
Thank you.
W
Let us consider, SAWS states it has 2200 members with donations of $5000 per year. SAWS donates to other organizations and to legal actions. "WSSA has spent over $200,000 in legal fees “Defending Your Rights.” ' WSSA has members including "2,200 families and nearly 100 snowmobile related businesses."
In contrast, the WMC Executive has a budget of $0. For safety reasons especially to keep our families out of it, no one will admit in public that they belong to WMC (another discussion to follow about that). WMC is a small group of citizens who talk to elected officials and USFS folks about trying to get designation of areas for winter non-motorized recreation.
We receive copies of letters in support, and keep those in confidence for the same reason that we keep our names out of public. WMC is entirely a framework for discussion, we go on Forums and start discussions, we talk to officials. Scotsman and some snowmobile advocates wish to cut WMC "off at the knees." WSSA submitted a letter of rebuttal to the USFS written by a marketing professional with a ski area email address. Is WMC a threat? No sir, but we hope that the power of a mobilized citizenry will show all the Organizations who it is that really owns our public lands. We encourage discussion and we talk to officials, we have no budget, no structure- we encourage skiers to speak up to ask for designation of winter non-motorized areas. We are anticipating more of that funding to be thrown at us, but as far as we know, the discussion of issues, advocacy by citizens, discussion with officials about our concerns, are all unassailable activities.
Snowmobile Alliance of Western States
From http://www.snowmobile-alliance.org/faq.asp
Does SAWS charge a membership fee?
No! Our goal is numbers, so that we can represent enough snowmobilers to have an impact on future land use decisions. We leverage email and our web site to support our mission. That is all we do! SAWS does not spend any of our members donated funds mailing our information to our members by US mail, which would be quite expensive to do, considering that we currently have over 2200 members. We will gladly accept donations to offset our costs. SAWS is a 501(c)(3) organization, so your donation may be tax deductible - contact your tax advisor.
Where does my donation to SAWS go?
SAWS receives less than $5000 a year in donations (based on a 3 yr average). We mainly use donated funds to cover our costs which consist of two teleconferences a year, web site fees, educational and promotional items, and occasionally we will request that a SAWS Rep attend a land use related function out of their local area or state of residence. If this occurs, which is very rare, the SAWS Directors usually agree to cover their costs. SAWS also donates funds to existing legal actions to protect snowmobile access, as SAWS has no legal team on retainer (but we are fortunate in that we receive some no-cost legal advice). We send donations to existing legal funds such as the BlueRibbon Coalition Legal Action Fund and other established funds. During 2006, we sent $1500 to fight the caribou related snowmobile closure in north Idaho. We temporarily bank excess funds from any given year in reserve, which will later be applied to the next legal issue or costs that SAWS determines is important to help protect snowmobile access.
Washington State Snowmobile Association
From http://www.wssa.us/content.aspx?page_id=0&club_id=431529
Today, our membership has grown to over 2,200 families and nearly 100 snowmobile related businesses. WSSA has lobbyists working in Olympia on behalf of folks owning more that 36,000 registered snowmobiles across the state. The Association mail out nearly 4,000 copies of its official publication, the Snoflyer, each month from September to March and another smaller edition during the summer months, so that the membership is kept up to date on happening in the snowmobiling world.
WSSA Fundraising letter:
URGENT ACTION NEEDED!!
BY YOU to SAVE YOUR Rights!!
We are about to Lose Major Riding Areas in our state that will pave the way to
make it easier for us to lose additional areas statewide in the future.
We are in a legal fight with the US Fish and Wildlife over the designation of critical
habitat for the Lynx. The designation Violates Several Federal Laws that if enforced would
make it harder for them to place more restrictions and limit our access to prime riding areas.
If we do not take legal action to challenge these actions and point out these violations they
will be free to close more lands without regard to these Federal violations in the future.
WSSA has spent over $200,000 in legal fees “Defending Your Rights” to this land
and other lands in this battle. We need at least $50,000 to finish this legal battle and this is
where you can help.We need donations to our legal fund ASAP! Large or small
donations, it all counts! Help us raise the funds to finish this fight, OrWe All Lose!
Make your contribution now by mailing a check to:
WSSA Treasurer
LEGAL ACTION FUND
P.O. Box 225
Newman Lake WA 99025
You can also contribute by credit card by completing and mailing the form below or you can make your
contribution online at www.wssa.us (Click on ‘Donation’ and then ‘Legal Action Fund Donation’ -A transaction fee may apply)
(End cc)
About the Wenatchee Mountains Coalition
Purpose: Advocacy for non-motorized winter recreation on Forest Lands.
Goal: Designation of USFS Non-Motorized areas for winter recreation. Specifically, we seek non-motorized status for the pristine unroaded crest of the Wenatchee Mountains.
Can you donate to WMC? No, thank you, we dedicate our own efforts to this advocacy, and we will not reveal our identities in public anyway. You may help by contacting USFS to ask for designation of areas for winter non-motorized recreation.
Thank you.
In contrast, the WMC Executive has a budget of $0. For safety reasons especially to keep our families out of it, no one will admit in public that they belong to WMC (another discussion to follow about that). WMC is a small group of citizens who talk to elected officials and USFS folks about trying to get designation of areas for winter non-motorized recreation.
We receive copies of letters in support, and keep those in confidence for the same reason that we keep our names out of public. WMC is entirely a framework for discussion, we go on Forums and start discussions, we talk to officials. Scotsman and some snowmobile advocates wish to cut WMC "off at the knees." WSSA submitted a letter of rebuttal to the USFS written by a marketing professional with a ski area email address. Is WMC a threat? No sir, but we hope that the power of a mobilized citizenry will show all the Organizations who it is that really owns our public lands. We encourage discussion and we talk to officials, we have no budget, no structure- we encourage skiers to speak up to ask for designation of winter non-motorized areas. We are anticipating more of that funding to be thrown at us, but as far as we know, the discussion of issues, advocacy by citizens, discussion with officials about our concerns, are all unassailable activities.
Snowmobile Alliance of Western States
From http://www.snowmobile-alliance.org/faq.asp
Does SAWS charge a membership fee?
No! Our goal is numbers, so that we can represent enough snowmobilers to have an impact on future land use decisions. We leverage email and our web site to support our mission. That is all we do! SAWS does not spend any of our members donated funds mailing our information to our members by US mail, which would be quite expensive to do, considering that we currently have over 2200 members. We will gladly accept donations to offset our costs. SAWS is a 501(c)(3) organization, so your donation may be tax deductible - contact your tax advisor.
Where does my donation to SAWS go?
SAWS receives less than $5000 a year in donations (based on a 3 yr average). We mainly use donated funds to cover our costs which consist of two teleconferences a year, web site fees, educational and promotional items, and occasionally we will request that a SAWS Rep attend a land use related function out of their local area or state of residence. If this occurs, which is very rare, the SAWS Directors usually agree to cover their costs. SAWS also donates funds to existing legal actions to protect snowmobile access, as SAWS has no legal team on retainer (but we are fortunate in that we receive some no-cost legal advice). We send donations to existing legal funds such as the BlueRibbon Coalition Legal Action Fund and other established funds. During 2006, we sent $1500 to fight the caribou related snowmobile closure in north Idaho. We temporarily bank excess funds from any given year in reserve, which will later be applied to the next legal issue or costs that SAWS determines is important to help protect snowmobile access.
Washington State Snowmobile Association
From http://www.wssa.us/content.aspx?page_id=0&club_id=431529
Today, our membership has grown to over 2,200 families and nearly 100 snowmobile related businesses. WSSA has lobbyists working in Olympia on behalf of folks owning more that 36,000 registered snowmobiles across the state. The Association mail out nearly 4,000 copies of its official publication, the Snoflyer, each month from September to March and another smaller edition during the summer months, so that the membership is kept up to date on happening in the snowmobiling world.
WSSA Fundraising letter:
URGENT ACTION NEEDED!!
BY YOU to SAVE YOUR Rights!!
We are about to Lose Major Riding Areas in our state that will pave the way to
make it easier for us to lose additional areas statewide in the future.
We are in a legal fight with the US Fish and Wildlife over the designation of critical
habitat for the Lynx. The designation Violates Several Federal Laws that if enforced would
make it harder for them to place more restrictions and limit our access to prime riding areas.
If we do not take legal action to challenge these actions and point out these violations they
will be free to close more lands without regard to these Federal violations in the future.
WSSA has spent over $200,000 in legal fees “Defending Your Rights” to this land
and other lands in this battle. We need at least $50,000 to finish this legal battle and this is
where you can help.We need donations to our legal fund ASAP! Large or small
donations, it all counts! Help us raise the funds to finish this fight, OrWe All Lose!
Make your contribution now by mailing a check to:
WSSA Treasurer
LEGAL ACTION FUND
P.O. Box 225
Newman Lake WA 99025
You can also contribute by credit card by completing and mailing the form below or you can make your
contribution online at www.wssa.us (Click on ‘Donation’ and then ‘Legal Action Fund Donation’ -A transaction fee may apply)
(End cc)
About the Wenatchee Mountains Coalition
Purpose: Advocacy for non-motorized winter recreation on Forest Lands.
Goal: Designation of USFS Non-Motorized areas for winter recreation. Specifically, we seek non-motorized status for the pristine unroaded crest of the Wenatchee Mountains.
Can you donate to WMC? No, thank you, we dedicate our own efforts to this advocacy, and we will not reveal our identities in public anyway. You may help by contacting USFS to ask for designation of areas for winter non-motorized recreation.
Thank you.
and how does SAWS and WSSA compare against WWA and the mountaineers?
WWA had 500k in revenue last year..
https://www.winterwildlands.org/news/reports/WWA_W09_AnnualReport.pdf
Seems the majority of purpose for the WWA is to help create groups like the WMC to try and push FS to create comprehensive travel plans subdividing usage areas. Their goals are also to reduce the amount of terrain available for motorized uses. The WWA is supporting the actions of the WMC. Will the WMC might be a very small group of people, the WWA and the Mountaineers put big numbers and big money into this. Something that the snowmobile community lacks and does not have.
Your comparisons are lacking substance.. Maybe you can compare the WMC to the 4m. That might work. 0 funds as well, members, well, I guess that would be the people responding on these threads... To make the assumption that it is only the WMC, all on its own, is false. You guys are getting help from big players..
WWA had 500k in revenue last year..
https://www.winterwildlands.org/news/reports/WWA_W09_AnnualReport.pdf
Seems the majority of purpose for the WWA is to help create groups like the WMC to try and push FS to create comprehensive travel plans subdividing usage areas. Their goals are also to reduce the amount of terrain available for motorized uses. The WWA is supporting the actions of the WMC. Will the WMC might be a very small group of people, the WWA and the Mountaineers put big numbers and big money into this. Something that the snowmobile community lacks and does not have.
Your comparisons are lacking substance.. Maybe you can compare the WMC to the 4m. That might work. 0 funds as well, members, well, I guess that would be the people responding on these threads... To make the assumption that it is only the WMC, all on its own, is false. You guys are getting help from big players..
The proposal, not the group... jeez....WMC said:
FYI, Scotsman I don't think even snowmobiles. Many people who are against this proposal don't either. They are against the proposal because it isn't needed, because during their many backcountry visits, there is no conflict that can be found. I believe Scotsmans point was that it is not appropriate for one special interest group (WMC) to make a proposal on its own without having input from the rest of the user group. The public land is just that, public. All peoples opinions and considerations should be heard and acknowldged. This is something that the WMC has consistently failed to do, and the reason for the statement above..
This is OUR land, we ALL should have a say in how it is used, not just one small group, pretending to speak on the behalf of all non-motorized users, especially when their methodology is to get everything that they can.
W
Oh yeah, understood, our group is basically an idea, an idea that we find is very common and has support even without WMC. Scotsman stated that he wanted to get a snowmobile but yes, I think that is correct.
As far as the other comments, WMC has repetitively asked for input to USFS- any citizen. We of course have our cause and want skier support, and we are getting some.
OK, thanks, I am still laughing about your statement about all of the big help we are getting!
W
From Kennewick? WMC has NEVER mentioned Kennewick. That is a problem, and I did try to resolve this with a pm. Our internet service is through Kennewick, therefore that statement appears to be very suspicious in regard to how this Moderator treated our privacy!
Some of you call WMC out to give our names and locations-why? Our identities have nothing to do with the discussion, do some of you want to post our telephone number and address so that you may call/ harass/ threaten us- as has been done before to others? Such was done most recently by 'Lake Cle Elum' on BCR. We have observed how on the Forum there are direct threats, veiled threats, some edited, some not. We have copied and forwarded to law enforcement the direct and indirect threats posted here in the past toward 'skiers' and discussed with same, the story by 'powderminer' about punching a skier then re-educating, The stories of intimidating skiers in Sno Parks, stories of scratching skiers' cars. It is not possible to know if it is all just internet talk, but it is intended to intimidate. My WMC partner in the past was subjected to phone call campagins to his home telephone and also email campaigns. We talked to a guy- another local skier- who was targeted here and had some very aggressive pms intending to threaten. WMC and law-abiding folk will not be intimidated, as as mentioned, we discussed these issues with law enforcement long ago.
This community would be well-served by cleaning up this behavior. WMC is here try to draw out this group in a meaningful discussion and invites this group as well to step up as citizens and advocate for your interests. The behaviors of oppositional defiance, threats, aggressive language, do not help your cause nor does it help the discussion of Forest recreation management.
This will probably be it after RMK2112 hits the delete button, goodbye and all the best.
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WMC, I dont ride the area that is in discussion here, but I would comment on this....I understand that some outdoor enthusiest dont like to pursue their activities around sledders and thats fine, but as has been said many times over...these are public lands..set aside to provide activity for all groups..non motorized activities are open to using all areas already where motorized is limited to less then 1/2 of all availably areas....If you truely are interested in accessing areas that dont have motorized activites then rather then try to shutout even more area to motorized,wouldnt it be far easier and cheaper to simply utilize the areas you already have available?..rather then concentrate on closing areas to other users, why dont you work with the forest service, other like minded outdoorist, and manufacturers to make easier access to the areas that are available to nonmotorized?how hard/expensive would it be to get /keep roads plowed into the areas you already have? I am sure if as many people as you say want this type of area access then someone knows/has the equipment nessaccary to acomplish this, and a small access fee(just as we sledders pay for sled license's to be able to ride,which pay for access plowing/grooming/maintanince) should easily cover the cost of this..and I am sure the forest service would have no problem with a privately funded access method on pre-exsisting infrasturcture ..and this would alleviate all the issues you are here claiming...Man up and put your efforts into something that acomplishes your goals for access without destroying someone elses...in the end everyone will be happy and all get equal access to their hobbies without infringing on others...
W
Thanks for discussion, There is a lot in the discussion that perhaps you have not read.
Wilderness is not accessible easily, it was not made for skiers it was made for Wilderness. We do go there, sometimes overnight. We do go to Wilderness on some day ski trips, through lots of snowmobile traffic, and then have found the Wilderness that we seek to ski to have snowmobile tracks. By default of management- no plan for snowmobiles here but no Regs prohibiting it- and now because of technology, snowmobiles are really going everywhere and expanding their areas of use all of the time. So skiers are getting squeezed, fewer areas for untracked winter recreation.
The area in question borders the Wilderness- a quite unique and world-famous area here that has a ton of Regulations for hikers in summer, that area has a lot of snowmobile traffic- and we will stipulate this since we are aware of the degree of knowledge of the general public and USFS here of the Wilderness problem.
So basically snowmobiles and skiers have the run of all of the Forest, and a skier or snowshoer cannot compete with a snowmobile, therefore we say the non-Wilderness Forest has become dominated by one use, snowmobile riding, in winter, one that degrades or eliminates other uses. Not multiple-use at all- mostly snowmobile riding.
WMC folks ride some old snowmobiles to go skitouring, we do not want to close the Forest or prohibit snowmobiles offroad, other than in the areas that we ask for for quiet winter recreation. We are fine with riders having their highmark areas, and we have our touring areas.
Our proposed areas connect to existing small non-motorized areas, to a ski area, to Wilderness.
Thank you.
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I have read it all..and once again the simple answer is the same..the wilderness area is open to nonmotorized use..which means you can access it..which gives you the access you are wanting..without distubing other users right of use..the time you have spent on here alone if spent getting sponsors would already have this issue taken care of..rather then make excuses, why not try ? what do you have to lose by making a few phone calls/ sending a few emails to local snow removal/construction companies and to ski gear manufacturers/dealers to ask for help? Why not ask the forest service if you can come up with funding/equipment if this is a viable alternative?or is it simpler to get others rights denied? Is it to limit/end other public users rights to enjoy the same country as you want to?bottom line is compromise by all users so all have as equal of access as possible..and this solution does that for all users...
S
it sounds to me like some want a handicap-like parking spot in front of the store because they think its to far to walk from the main parking lot like everybody else does.?
W
How far do you have to walk? Handicap- how many hours does it take for you to access theses areas? Not even an hour, just push the throttle and lean and you are there.
It is rich indeed to hear from folks who harshly complain if they do not have 15 feet behind their trailer so that they do not have to move to load. It is entertaining to read the whining about Subarus parked at Sno Parks, what you may have to park a few hundred feet further away and ride for an extra two seconds? We suggested some huge alternate huge areas for open-slope riding, undisturbed by skiers, and the response was "too far to drive" (another hour)! Handicap? that is good for a laugh to hear tough guys who sit on soft seats or stand and push a throttle talk how they are tougher than skiers!
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umm you really need to come out and try powder riding a sled..I promise you it is every inch the work out cross country skiing is...maybe one of our fine members will step up and meet with you and take you out on a real powder ride in this area..maybe in the process both will see the other sides position better and come away with more apreciation of the others position...
Excellent post:beer;
Access would seem to be a very big issue for the skiers to get the their honey-holes, we can all relate in a not so dis-similar way from time to time.
I know WMC is reluctant to admit the fact they have access to the wilderness simply because "it was not designed for skiers" But why not try to fix that instead of trying to kick us out? AKSNOWRIDER has some AWESOME suggestions there for you to take advantage of. Talk to the forest service about improving your access to your existing areas, maybe there would be a better logistical way to get you folks in there... a totally new snow park and trail from a closer location that would cut down your cross-country time. Get the skiing community to chip in and get a new one opened up or an existing one expanded and improved like AK mentioned... I think you could really benefit your fellow user group without the "Get Out" feel you have been portraying here.
Potential dedicated areas you could expand into:
Statistics courtesy of Wilderness.net http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS
You want a good discussion, there's some for ya.:beer;
Let's try and get this discussion back on a more respectful track folks. There's a little bit of mud-flinging starting that doesn't need to happen.
EVERYONE please keep this topic respectful and on-track.
Thank you.
EVERYONE please keep this topic respectful and on-track.
Thank you.
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