..........among about 50 other questions. WMC, if you want any shred of credibility go back thru this thread and start answering ALL the valid questions asked of WMC.
94fordguy wrote
94fordguy wrote
Asking for riders' input about winter non-motorized areas (PART 3)
- Thread starter rmk2112
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W
What is up here yammadog? Did you bother to read the above?
The USFS is trying to understand where skiing/ snowshoeing has been done, and where snowmobiling has been done. This is a USFS planning team, WMC did not have anything to do with this other than we will show where we ski, Are you wanting snowmobile riders to interfere with any skier's use of the Forest? WMC states openly that snowmobile riding is a legitimate use of the Forest, we just do not want to ski where you ride snowmobiles. Yes, we want more designated non-motorized areas, and yes in your view that takes it from snowmobiles and in our view it designates a use for an area that has never been designated intentionally for snowmobile riding.
Perhaps as we discover part of the problem is that not all are aware of even the location of Wilderness Boundaries, the legal ramifications of Wilderness, the difference in non-motorized and Wilderness, which is done on all Forests. It also seems to be challenging to ask some to recognize that other Forest users want to recreate away from snowmobiles, and Wilderness does not solve that issue. We like to ski Wilderness and we do, but it takes usually extra time to get there. Some here state that you do not want to be inconvenienced by driving further north to all of the huge Forest areas in the Entiat and Chelan Mountains with open terrain for snowmobiling. Imagine having to walk for hours on skis or snowshoes just to get to the recreation in the Wilderness. Skiers did not create Wilderness, are skiers blamed here?
WMC (three of us) met with an individual in the snowmobile industry yesterday and found a person that is articulate, understands the issues, agrees with some of what WMC proposes and does not agree with a lot of what WMC proposes. We clearly stated our views and disagreements in an intelligent conversation without discord or suspicion of motives. I think we did each recognize a certain inflexible response from many in the motorized community that resists even any discussion of these issues and question whether that helps anyone here.
WMC is trying to clearly state what we propose, and expect it is a controversial topic here. WMC is interested when a formed sentence with significant information about these issues is produced. Thanks for the discussion.
Y
W
WMC is not encouraged to continue a discussion that throws name-calling, disparages our intention which we state clearly, and see mainly responses that have few tangible concepts but plenty of disrespect. WMC would engage in respectful good-faith conversation.
So if you all would like a conversation, do not accuse or infer that we have devious intent, call us liars, tell us "you will just create more people that will thumb their nose at the FS and skiers etc and continue riding, after all what are you going to really do about it? They can't enforce what they have, let alone adding more. And the general sentiment of the population is that of rebellion...and this land use issue is just one topic in that larger sense. (yammadog)", please do not tell us we want to ban all motorized Forest use, we do not, this poster owns two dirt bikes and three snowmobiles for example.
Ok, the TAY website is very permissive of aggressive talk, but there and here WMC is not willing to continue a discussion that flings names and disrespect and impugns our motives, and WMC endeavors to discuss in a proper and civil fashion in regard to this difficult discussion.
Thank you.
So if you all would like a conversation, do not accuse or infer that we have devious intent, call us liars, tell us "you will just create more people that will thumb their nose at the FS and skiers etc and continue riding, after all what are you going to really do about it? They can't enforce what they have, let alone adding more. And the general sentiment of the population is that of rebellion...and this land use issue is just one topic in that larger sense. (yammadog)", please do not tell us we want to ban all motorized Forest use, we do not, this poster owns two dirt bikes and three snowmobiles for example.
Ok, the TAY website is very permissive of aggressive talk, but there and here WMC is not willing to continue a discussion that flings names and disrespect and impugns our motives, and WMC endeavors to discuss in a proper and civil fashion in regard to this difficult discussion.
Thank you.
Y
that is my opinion, not calling you anything just think it will lead to more conflict if the proposal in it's current configuration is achieved.
So back to the topic.....answer the direct questions.
So back to the topic.....answer the direct questions.
WMC says..."we just do not want to ski where you ride snowmobiles".
Who exactly is "We"? Does "we" use groomed snowmobile trails for ease of access? Does "we" use snoparks that allow snowmobiles when there are designated non-motorized snowparks? I see both occuring so it seems alot of the "we" you mention DOES want to ski where there are snowmobiles.
Want....you don't always get what you want. Enjoy what you have....I know we (snowmobilers) WISH we could enjoy alot of the areas that you (BC skiers) already have and we are not allowed to use. You have access to EVERY area we do, plus alot more.....it already seems unfair and your goal is to make it even more lopsided. How can any rational person disagree with this?
Who exactly is "We"? Does "we" use groomed snowmobile trails for ease of access? Does "we" use snoparks that allow snowmobiles when there are designated non-motorized snowparks? I see both occuring so it seems alot of the "we" you mention DOES want to ski where there are snowmobiles.
Want....you don't always get what you want. Enjoy what you have....I know we (snowmobilers) WISH we could enjoy alot of the areas that you (BC skiers) already have and we are not allowed to use. You have access to EVERY area we do, plus alot more.....it already seems unfair and your goal is to make it even more lopsided. How can any rational person disagree with this?
W
For now WMC will suggest that if interested and have questions, do to the TAY thread which has all of the information-
http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=16511.0
Coming here is not fun, does not stoke any ego or anything else, WMC is trying to have this difficult discussion with snowmobile riders. WMC is attempting to state that we recognize that snowmobile riding is a legitimate use of the Forest, we ask for snowmobile riders to consider other uses of the Forest.
Out for now, if anyone here decides to have a discussion in a civil manner then that may be possible.
Thank you.
http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=16511.0
Coming here is not fun, does not stoke any ego or anything else, WMC is trying to have this difficult discussion with snowmobile riders. WMC is attempting to state that we recognize that snowmobile riding is a legitimate use of the Forest, we ask for snowmobile riders to consider other uses of the Forest.
Out for now, if anyone here decides to have a discussion in a civil manner then that may be possible.
Thank you.
Y
You didn't answer the questions over there either......WMC, where do you see "legitimate" use of snowmobiles in the forest off road in similar terrain as your proposal?
As for discussion....you're making statements only. discussion requires some acknowledgement of the other side.
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First let me preface this in that I am also a backcountry snowboarder... I use a splitboard w/skins, snowshoes or a snowmobile for BC access... and ride all over the Pacific NW, Idaho, Utah, Colorado, WYO, MT and British Columbia.
Also, I have been exposed to WMC ( Wenatchee Mountains Coalition ) in the past and they appear to be a level headed group of people that are passionate about their sport.
The WE part should include the sharing of the current open areas IMO... not excluding one group in preference of another.
As indicated above by WMC ... The massive Wilderness areas ARE available for Ski touring/snowboarding/snowshoeing to the exclusion of motorized vehicles.
Why should the current shared areas be further divided and exclude the snowmbiles?
WMC... What are the main reasons for you to NOT want to Share the current lands we BOTH enjoy and specify them to exclude snowmobiles?
I can see and respect as well as enjoy the need for "peace and quiet" in pursuing a BC ski experience outside of snowmobile co-mingling. That is currently available to us as skiers/snowboarders... we just have to work to get it... and I feel that that "work" is worth it... nothing is the same as a full day skin with packs on... Post-holeing for a good line and dropping some great steep pow lines... I get that. And that is currently available to us in the wilderness areas.
What is WMC's Official position on the the use of Backcountry snowmobiles? Does WMC actively promote awareness and education of the members in the value of Snowmobiles in the backcountry other than for SAR missions?
I would like to participate in an open discussion of the topic... In a non inflammatory way in both directions... It is good to have you here... Lets be as transparent in our motives as possible... both parties.
It would be nice, for a change to ditch the "Us vs. Them" that both groups here seem to be developing and cooperate so that we both can enjoy these wonderful areas TOGETHER!!
Also, I have been exposed to WMC ( Wenatchee Mountains Coalition ) in the past and they appear to be a level headed group of people that are passionate about their sport.
The WE part should include the sharing of the current open areas IMO... not excluding one group in preference of another.
As indicated above by WMC ... The massive Wilderness areas ARE available for Ski touring/snowboarding/snowshoeing to the exclusion of motorized vehicles.
Why should the current shared areas be further divided and exclude the snowmbiles?
WMC... What are the main reasons for you to NOT want to Share the current lands we BOTH enjoy and specify them to exclude snowmobiles?
I can see and respect as well as enjoy the need for "peace and quiet" in pursuing a BC ski experience outside of snowmobile co-mingling. That is currently available to us as skiers/snowboarders... we just have to work to get it... and I feel that that "work" is worth it... nothing is the same as a full day skin with packs on... Post-holeing for a good line and dropping some great steep pow lines... I get that. And that is currently available to us in the wilderness areas.
What is WMC's Official position on the the use of Backcountry snowmobiles? Does WMC actively promote awareness and education of the members in the value of Snowmobiles in the backcountry other than for SAR missions?
I would like to participate in an open discussion of the topic... In a non inflammatory way in both directions... It is good to have you here... Lets be as transparent in our motives as possible... both parties.
It would be nice, for a change to ditch the "Us vs. Them" that both groups here seem to be developing and cooperate so that we both can enjoy these wonderful areas TOGETHER!!
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Y
I'll concede that I have fallen in to somewhat of that us v them position after trying to engage WMC ove the last month on the TAY board. I'll be happy to take a break and let you guys "converse" with them for a bit. Hopefully he'll answer your questions.
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WMC.. you also state in your TAY post
What do you find them "competing" for ... a pristine line down the center of a slope?
Please elaborate.
I've also read your position on compatibility
Being a Backcountry snowboarder who also travels with Teli and Touring skiers... I do not understand this "incompatibly and competition" position you have presented.
What do you find them "competing" for ... a pristine line down the center of a slope?
Please elaborate.
I've also read your position on compatibility
Being a Backcountry snowboarder who also travels with Teli and Touring skiers... I do not understand this "incompatibly and competition" position you have presented.
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WMC... you also have to entertain this idea if you are going to have a more complete picture of backcountry use:
In the past, Backcountry access to skiers was pretty limited untill the modern Teli, Rondi and Touring skis have come to the fore. Before that, there were very limited numbers of Skiers in the "Pristine backcountry" as well.
Ski touring Technology has advanced, prices have dropped on the gear and it is readily available at most sporting outlets (eg REI, Sportsbarn, Mountain Gear etc). Also instruction clinics for BC ski access and BC ski/snowboard clubs have been growing in numbers as well as numerous BC Touring books and maps for skiers. Sure, Franz Klahmer may have been ski touring in the late sixties... but he would have been pretty alone in the BC.
In the last 6-8 years, BC snowmobile equipment, education, availability and awareness have caught up with the initial wave of ski touring expansion in the backcountry.
I often see the reticence of the ski groups to share what they feel is their "staked claim" in public lands and the bad sentiments towards snowmobilers that they feel are "poaching or intruding" upon.
It is more work to get to the Wilderness in SOME areas, not so hard in others.
I feel that both groups (I belong to both) of Snomobilers and Skiers/Snowboarders need to recognize the access rights of either one... and SHARE the lands that they both currently enjoy.
So that you might understand You have also proposed a closure to what is already a greatly shrinking snowmobile access-ability of snomobilers in the BC. There is a reason that snowmobilers feel that the Public Lands that they currently enjoy is under siege from groups that keep "inching thier way" into closing down more and more areas to our way of enjoying the backcountry beauty and expansiveness.
In the past, Backcountry access to skiers was pretty limited untill the modern Teli, Rondi and Touring skis have come to the fore. Before that, there were very limited numbers of Skiers in the "Pristine backcountry" as well.
Ski touring Technology has advanced, prices have dropped on the gear and it is readily available at most sporting outlets (eg REI, Sportsbarn, Mountain Gear etc). Also instruction clinics for BC ski access and BC ski/snowboard clubs have been growing in numbers as well as numerous BC Touring books and maps for skiers. Sure, Franz Klahmer may have been ski touring in the late sixties... but he would have been pretty alone in the BC.
In the last 6-8 years, BC snowmobile equipment, education, availability and awareness have caught up with the initial wave of ski touring expansion in the backcountry.
I often see the reticence of the ski groups to share what they feel is their "staked claim" in public lands and the bad sentiments towards snowmobilers that they feel are "poaching or intruding" upon.
It is more work to get to the Wilderness in SOME areas, not so hard in others.
I feel that both groups (I belong to both) of Snomobilers and Skiers/Snowboarders need to recognize the access rights of either one... and SHARE the lands that they both currently enjoy.
So that you might understand You have also proposed a closure to what is already a greatly shrinking snowmobile access-ability of snomobilers in the BC. There is a reason that snowmobilers feel that the Public Lands that they currently enjoy is under siege from groups that keep "inching thier way" into closing down more and more areas to our way of enjoying the backcountry beauty and expansiveness.
Along the same vein of reasoning...If an incompatibility actually exists.
What areas should be Closed to access for skiers/snowboarders and declared motorized access only?
What areas should be Closed to access for skiers/snowboarders and declared motorized access only?
I have asked simple questions in a civil manor.....had no response. You came HERE asking for dialogue from snowmobilers to get a different perspective, or so I thought-
Just because someone doesn't agree with your intentions and questions them doesn't make them hostile or uncivil. I think most people on this site would consider your (WMC) goals to be hostile as it would reduce our riding areas. You would feel the same if we wanted to shut skiers out of specific areas.
The reasons WMC have presented for segregation seem to be more those of a specific person or small group of people rather than skiers in general....and SAYING your not "anti-snowmobile" is pretty tough to swallow given your specific goals and the descriptions of snowmobiles used throughout your posts.
W
That is a reasonable concept. Skiers and snowshoers do not want to be amongst snowmobiles in the Forest, especially off-road. We would like snowmobile riders to suggest this- tell us what is most important in and out of our proposal area. WMC heard some discussion of this yesterday with the snowmobile industry person that we met with.
As far as on the Forums, We have suggested other alpine riding areas, huge Forest areas with open terrain for riding dominated by snowmobiles. Responses are no for whatever reason, so perhaps that is the end of it.
It is time for some ideas from the other side rather than just shooting down everything that WMC says. We understand that many disagree, OK already. Any other ideas?
Thanks.
Y
There are many questions in my 3 above posts ...please address them as well as giving your reply to my question of "Motorized Access only"?
I do not propose this at all.. I have co-mingled and continue to co mingle my extensive backcountry non-motorized and motorized pursuits... as do MOST of the skiers that I ride with or socialize with.
I do NOT agree that the two are incompatible.
Could you please address these questions.
Thanks.
W
Yes, we understand the opposition here. WMC has said many times that we are not against all motorized use, we are asking for some areas free of motors other than the generally difficult to access Wilderness.We want to make the point that pedestrians cannot compete with snowmobiles for snowy slopes, and we do not want to be on snowy forest slopes with snowmobiles.
We see here in WA the continual expansion of areas ridden because of the ability of the modern machines. We see that is is a great sport, but one group cannot have it all. We make the point that snowmobiles riding around us on a slope eliminates our use, and also the deep ruts left on a slope as well eliminates our use. As a result, we want new and significant winter non-motorized areas on the Forest for the original users, original uses, and users of vastly greater numbers, skiers and snowshoers.
WMC is advocating for our local area. USFS is in a Planning process to determine where on the Forest outside Wilderness should be designated for non-motorized and which should be for snowmobile use.
To restate, if we can have some good areas to ski or snowshoe, we are all good with snowmobile riders having good areas to ride, highmark, have fun.
Each of our groups seeks similar things on the Forest. The entire Forest is managed with rules for various uses. The areas in our proposal in part have long lists of summer-use Regs but no Regulation in winter, and the Wilderness nearby has even more rules, but is unenforced and a snowmobile speedway in winter.
This poster has old snowmobiles barely worth the cost of one of my skitouring rigs, I do ride them about 30 to 40 days per season to go skiing, a little offroad but mostly on Roads. The cost of all of my six ski, boot, binding combos, my avalanche airbag, shovels, beacons, that price would pay for a great new snowmobile. That amount of gear is not average. On some of the same type of terrain as snowmobile riders many of us prefer to walk on skis and ski downhill on skis. The two uses do not mix on the same slopes, that is the issue.
Thanks.
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