B
lol thats all,so you want a turbo 4stroke that weighs under 500lbs that cost the same or less $$ than a curent 2 stroke mtn sled,well you dont ask for much.
ound:ound:ound:ound:
Does Weight Really Matter?
- Thread starter Shattered1
- Start date
lol thats all,so you want a turbo 4stroke that weighs under 500lbs that cost the same or less $$ than a curent 2 stroke mtn sled,well you dont ask for much.
ound:ound:ound:ound:
G
Hope this doesn't go the wrong way lol.
Seems SW (in every forum) is quite sensitive to different opinions nowadays, compared to the past. It doesn't matter if the topic is steering mods, pick of piston or the brand you picked to ride but things get out of hand quite quickly sometimes with discussions about simple steel and rubber being looked at as a personal attack for some reason.
Maybe it is the shorter winters nowadays, maybe it is size of money investment and perceived return, maybe it's just a natural evolution to specific "classes" in a sport but, if your opinion-experience is different, post it, join in, or hit the back button lol.
Every forum is open to any member.
MO any way.
Another opinion of mine.
Does weight really matter? Good question. If we talk scientifically-physically and not personally (obviously no universal answer there lol) there is really only one answer, truthfully. Yes weight does matter, a lot.
Weight has always mattered in snowmobiling more than any other motorsport and here is a thread where some are asking if you can really notice 80 lbs. Hmmm.
In other motorsports weight loss is measured in decimals of a lb. and recorded performance improvements show the gain in fractions of a sec. No questions or theory are asked there. It's just a fact everyone knows.
Rider effort is hard to quantify but dang, a 200 lb bike is right away easier to throw around compared to a 230 lb bike and at the end of a day,,,,.
Wanna feel 10lbs really easy and the effort-energy used immediately and at the end of a day, experiment with your backpack. Throw in or take out 10lbs lol.
Mountain sleddin has 3 big areas where weight is definitely a big factor if nothing else is changed. One, we go up and lighter goes higher. everytime. Two, we go down and lighter is easier to control when you are riding something that weights more than you, everytime. Three, when it's fresh, lighter sinks less, everytime.
I won't go to stucks because yah, there all heavy when stuck, but, just like an elevator built for three 200lb people won't elevate four 200 lber's to the next floor, there is a chance you might bench press 200 lb and get the sled to move but 275 will not budge at your power level lol.
Evolution of sleds simply to overcome weight.
You can't change Mother Nature or the physical properties of gravity. But we try to overpower it, lol, and win to certain plateaus. Pretty soon MO, there may not be a tall enough mountain or deep enough snow to take a sled beyond it's limits right off the showroom floor. Pretty good human effort to overcome weight for only about 20 yrs since the first mountain sled came off the floor.
Rider aside, is there some place on this earth that a 270 HP 174 3.5" will not go? If there is the 350 HP 210" is right around the corner lol. When we had a max of 70 HP and 121", leaving the packsack at the bottom of the hill was worth 20 feet or more lol. No need today.
So we have the power and the floatation to overcome weight (I think this is why some asked the question if weight is really important). Snow has been the constant over the years and so has the rider.
Sure you can be strong enough to throw around an 11' or 12' sled at 700 lbs but you can't argue that a sled that's 10' and 600 lbs would not be easier physically to ride. Can you lol?
I think this is where we are at right now in the sport. The weight thing for the rider (the Pro let many people try it off the floor) has been added because we have overcome floatation and HP limitations of weight for the average Joe. Someday one of the OEM's may give us all of it if we keep asking but presently you pick the most important weight overcoming factor for you when you pick a sled.
Different strokes for different folks but weight does matter.
Do you think Yamaha could become #1 again quicker if they built a 320lb 75hp Phazer for $8000 first or a 475lb 180HP Apex for $15000. Which one would take the most innovation? Which one would get the most "talk"?
Seems SW (in every forum) is quite sensitive to different opinions nowadays, compared to the past. It doesn't matter if the topic is steering mods, pick of piston or the brand you picked to ride but things get out of hand quite quickly sometimes with discussions about simple steel and rubber being looked at as a personal attack for some reason.
Maybe it is the shorter winters nowadays, maybe it is size of money investment and perceived return, maybe it's just a natural evolution to specific "classes" in a sport but, if your opinion-experience is different, post it, join in, or hit the back button lol.
Every forum is open to any member.
MO any way.
Another opinion of mine.
Does weight really matter? Good question. If we talk scientifically-physically and not personally (obviously no universal answer there lol) there is really only one answer, truthfully. Yes weight does matter, a lot.
Weight has always mattered in snowmobiling more than any other motorsport and here is a thread where some are asking if you can really notice 80 lbs. Hmmm.
In other motorsports weight loss is measured in decimals of a lb. and recorded performance improvements show the gain in fractions of a sec. No questions or theory are asked there. It's just a fact everyone knows.
Rider effort is hard to quantify but dang, a 200 lb bike is right away easier to throw around compared to a 230 lb bike and at the end of a day,,,,.
Wanna feel 10lbs really easy and the effort-energy used immediately and at the end of a day, experiment with your backpack. Throw in or take out 10lbs lol.
Mountain sleddin has 3 big areas where weight is definitely a big factor if nothing else is changed. One, we go up and lighter goes higher. everytime. Two, we go down and lighter is easier to control when you are riding something that weights more than you, everytime. Three, when it's fresh, lighter sinks less, everytime.
I won't go to stucks because yah, there all heavy when stuck, but, just like an elevator built for three 200lb people won't elevate four 200 lber's to the next floor, there is a chance you might bench press 200 lb and get the sled to move but 275 will not budge at your power level lol.
Evolution of sleds simply to overcome weight.
You can't change Mother Nature or the physical properties of gravity. But we try to overpower it, lol, and win to certain plateaus. Pretty soon MO, there may not be a tall enough mountain or deep enough snow to take a sled beyond it's limits right off the showroom floor. Pretty good human effort to overcome weight for only about 20 yrs since the first mountain sled came off the floor.
Rider aside, is there some place on this earth that a 270 HP 174 3.5" will not go? If there is the 350 HP 210" is right around the corner lol. When we had a max of 70 HP and 121", leaving the packsack at the bottom of the hill was worth 20 feet or more lol. No need today.
So we have the power and the floatation to overcome weight (I think this is why some asked the question if weight is really important). Snow has been the constant over the years and so has the rider.
Sure you can be strong enough to throw around an 11' or 12' sled at 700 lbs but you can't argue that a sled that's 10' and 600 lbs would not be easier physically to ride. Can you lol?
I think this is where we are at right now in the sport. The weight thing for the rider (the Pro let many people try it off the floor) has been added because we have overcome floatation and HP limitations of weight for the average Joe. Someday one of the OEM's may give us all of it if we keep asking but presently you pick the most important weight overcoming factor for you when you pick a sled.
Different strokes for different folks but weight does matter.
Do you think Yamaha could become #1 again quicker if they built a 320lb 75hp Phazer for $8000 first or a 475lb 180HP Apex for $15000. Which one would take the most innovation? Which one would get the most "talk"?
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How did our poor sport every survive just a few short years ago when we had nothing but heavy sleds?
Its amazing anyone went riding! :face-icon-small-hap
In a perfect world where giving up weight had absolutely NO negative impacts on anything else whatsoever, lighter would always absolutely be better.
But reality has a nasty way of stepping in.
Giving up weight, as it now stands, means something was sacrificed.
Generally some METAL has been removed.
And as every sledder out there can attest, the less metal you have (in general) the less impact/stress your sled can withstand.
So the search is always looking for that ever elusive "Sweet Spot" where you have the bare minimum amount of metal to withstand the normal wear and tear of riding a sled in the mountains.
Given that reality, everyone who rides a Yamaha can fully appreciate why they do tend to last longer, take more abuse and run harder than the other 3 brands.
Weight is NOT always the boogie man that some would make it out to be...
Its amazing anyone went riding! :face-icon-small-hap
In a perfect world where giving up weight had absolutely NO negative impacts on anything else whatsoever, lighter would always absolutely be better.
But reality has a nasty way of stepping in.
Giving up weight, as it now stands, means something was sacrificed.
Generally some METAL has been removed.
And as every sledder out there can attest, the less metal you have (in general) the less impact/stress your sled can withstand.
So the search is always looking for that ever elusive "Sweet Spot" where you have the bare minimum amount of metal to withstand the normal wear and tear of riding a sled in the mountains.
Given that reality, everyone who rides a Yamaha can fully appreciate why they do tend to last longer, take more abuse and run harder than the other 3 brands.
Weight is NOT always the boogie man that some would make it out to be...
I
I don't believe heavier sleds are more durable as a rule. I'm sure everyone who's replaced the subframe on a nytro will agree. Especially those who've had to do it multiple times.
ICR
I still feel that was designed as much the same way as a crumple zone in a car to save the more expensive connection points on the aluminum bulk head from head on impacts. Everything designed today has a weak spot if you hit it just at the right angle and everyone is aware that was a weak point on the nytro. if you hit something the right way it would bend like butter. I sttill read people in forums today say that they are still on their first one and not all are trail riders either. I had to replace mine when i caught a ski on something and was not going very fast at all. I knew immediately that i would have to replace the front end just by the way i hit the ski.
I still feel that was designed as much the same way as a crumple zone in a car to save the more expensive connection points on the aluminum bulk head from head on impacts. Everything designed today has a weak spot if you hit it just at the right angle and everyone is aware that was a weak point on the nytro. if you hit something the right way it would bend like butter. I sttill read people in forums today say that they are still on their first one and not all are trail riders either. I had to replace mine when i caught a ski on something and was not going very fast at all. I knew immediately that i would have to replace the front end just by the way i hit the ski.
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I
It certainly could've been intentional, if that were the case I'd think the a arm would've been a better choice as it's easier a cheaper to replace.
C
Thread summary
Four strokes weigh more than two strokes
All else equal lighter is better
All else equal heavier will be more reliable
Not all is equal
Weight and fun aren't directly related.
We all picked the sled that best met our needs
Repeat.
Four strokes weigh more than two strokes
All else equal lighter is better
All else equal heavier will be more reliable
Not all is equal
Weight and fun aren't directly related.
We all picked the sled that best met our needs
Repeat.
Different strokes for different folks...
Weight matters, period. We have three sleds in the household, and on any given day I will ride any of them and be happy to do so.
- When the snow has no base and I feel lively - I ride a boosted 4 stroke 0even in the trees, but it takes more rider effort. 4S powerband is considerably different, and you have to ride further ahead of your sled, and make plans sooner)
- For the tightest trees, or when I'm riding with a less aggressive group - I'll ride the 2 stroke.
Really, it depends on a few things: Physical condition (strength), what the majority of your group rides, and talent. I'll go out on a limb here and say that 80% of the weekend warriors cannot use their current sled to it's full potential - myself included when I'm on the boosted 4S. I'm getting significantly older and don't get to ride as often as I used to. As a group, we bit#h and whine about the current offerings, when the rality is the new sleds (any of them) are light years ahead of the stuff we rode in the 80's and 90's (there's always a pi$$ing match about 600's vs. 800's too, fact is both are capable, it just takes a rider... wasn't long ago a 600 was a "big" sled, with hp numbers around 80-90 hp, weighing in at 550# without fuel).
Ride what you want, and have fun. No point in a pi$$ing match between 2 and 4 strokes, cause they really aren't very comparable at this point in history. They are not equal, they are considerably different, but BOTH offer individual pros and cons
Weight matters, period. We have three sleds in the household, and on any given day I will ride any of them and be happy to do so.
- When the snow has no base and I feel lively - I ride a boosted 4 stroke 0even in the trees, but it takes more rider effort. 4S powerband is considerably different, and you have to ride further ahead of your sled, and make plans sooner)
- For the tightest trees, or when I'm riding with a less aggressive group - I'll ride the 2 stroke.
Really, it depends on a few things: Physical condition (strength), what the majority of your group rides, and talent. I'll go out on a limb here and say that 80% of the weekend warriors cannot use their current sled to it's full potential - myself included when I'm on the boosted 4S. I'm getting significantly older and don't get to ride as often as I used to. As a group, we bit#h and whine about the current offerings, when the rality is the new sleds (any of them) are light years ahead of the stuff we rode in the 80's and 90's (there's always a pi$$ing match about 600's vs. 800's too, fact is both are capable, it just takes a rider... wasn't long ago a 600 was a "big" sled, with hp numbers around 80-90 hp, weighing in at 550# without fuel).
Ride what you want, and have fun. No point in a pi$$ing match between 2 and 4 strokes, cause they really aren't very comparable at this point in history. They are not equal, they are considerably different, but BOTH offer individual pros and cons
G
That about sums it up lol.
But,, because it rained for a few days (ugh), Christopher, we are into the second decade of the 2000's lol. No need to sacrifice strength while losing weight (but I say that knowing anything can be broken, even 90,000 lb excavators lol) and Yamaha is pretty good at it.
I may be picking on Yamaha because I still think of them as the big guy in our sport. Doo Poo Cat, to me, are a bit understaffed engineering wise in the big picture.
Exotic materials and exotic manufacturing methods from the 90's are not really exotic today except maybe in sleddin'. Maybe that is why we still perceive lighter as more fragile.
Cars-trucks are daily drivers not a passion fueled sport. They use "exotic" materials and structural technique in a normal assy line. Engineers found weight saving produces results in the form of performance and mileage, because weight matters.
Properly engineered weight savings can cost less to produce too. It is also more environmentally friendly lol. Just think how much less greenhouse gases would be emitted if every Yamaha built weighted 100 lbs less lol.
The auto people don't market the weight savings aggressively. The costs to engineer and then to actually implement onto an ***,y line at a cost effective rate is part of trying to get to #1. They market performance and mileage and don't really push what was gained from the weight savings.
Their hands are more tied than sled engineers because not only do they have EPA but they also have Ralph Nader and crash test dummies lol. No iffy structural changes are allowed just for the sake of weight loss. The warranty department also has a big say.
Maybe they just have more passion for their job. Maybe they have less nostalgia to the "old ways". Maybe car buyers are more demanding lol.
The "weight loss" in the auto industry is kind of a tricky thing...goes in hand with "better" fuel economy as well.
For your average car, truck or SUV....are they much lighter or more fuel efficient than 10 or 15 years ago? Not substantially.
**BUT** they have maintained roughly the same weight and fuel economy figures while having:
- tons more safety equipment, both gov-mandated and non.
- tons more electronics for traction control, stability control, ipod, onstar, TV's, bluetooth, at least 8 airbags, you name it.
- more interior space
- larger wheels and tires
- larger braking systems
- larger engines with AT LEAST 50% more horsepower in many cases
- larger 6, 7 and 8 speed auto transmissions
- absolutely do everything better than 10+ years ago...from ride quality, to handing, to NVH levels, to better stereo.
- AND do all of that stuff for hundreds of thousands of miles, in the hands of the modern consumer....who can barely operate a toaster oven, let alone grasp the concept of letting the engine warm up before flooring it up hill pulling a travel trailer.
And all of that while conforming to constantly increasing EPA regs, crash dummies and Ralph Nader (to steal from Geo....lol). So add that all up, and it is no small feat. Sleds are a sharp rock and a pointy stick by comparison.
I see Yamaha as the most "plugged in" to that part of the world, so I agree that they have some engineers on deck who could do some awesome stuff....they just need some $$ and a green light to work on it.
For your average car, truck or SUV....are they much lighter or more fuel efficient than 10 or 15 years ago? Not substantially.
**BUT** they have maintained roughly the same weight and fuel economy figures while having:
- tons more safety equipment, both gov-mandated and non.
- tons more electronics for traction control, stability control, ipod, onstar, TV's, bluetooth, at least 8 airbags, you name it.
- more interior space
- larger wheels and tires
- larger braking systems
- larger engines with AT LEAST 50% more horsepower in many cases
- larger 6, 7 and 8 speed auto transmissions
- absolutely do everything better than 10+ years ago...from ride quality, to handing, to NVH levels, to better stereo.
- AND do all of that stuff for hundreds of thousands of miles, in the hands of the modern consumer....who can barely operate a toaster oven, let alone grasp the concept of letting the engine warm up before flooring it up hill pulling a travel trailer.
And all of that while conforming to constantly increasing EPA regs, crash dummies and Ralph Nader (to steal from Geo....lol). So add that all up, and it is no small feat. Sleds are a sharp rock and a pointy stick by comparison.
I see Yamaha as the most "plugged in" to that part of the world, so I agree that they have some engineers on deck who could do some awesome stuff....they just need some $$ and a green light to work on it.
Just a side note, but it is always interesting to see these threads as the cross the magic 100 post threshold and all the casual members drop out leaving only the serious SnoWesters to continue the debate. Things always seem to smooth out in the discussion.
So.
Yamaha CLEARLY has both the engineering technology and manufacturing capability to produce an absolutely world class mountain sled above and beyond anything we have yet seen. But for reasons we can only speculate about they have chosen over and over again to not apply those resources to this challenge. We need only look to the motorcycle division to see what they are truly capable of.
Weight IS becoming a direct marketing issue for truck buyers with the introduction of the new Aluminum F-150. But even there, for the average joe it's all about the cost of fuel.
Most guys I know really don't care as much about the miles per gallon as they do about the miles per DOLLAR. It's the cost of gas that drives them to look for more efficient vehicles. As the cost of gas plummets, fuel economy vanishes from the average guys mind.
Power, strength, reliability, durability, tow-ability all take front place over milage.
So.
Yamaha CLEARLY has both the engineering technology and manufacturing capability to produce an absolutely world class mountain sled above and beyond anything we have yet seen. But for reasons we can only speculate about they have chosen over and over again to not apply those resources to this challenge. We need only look to the motorcycle division to see what they are truly capable of.
Weight IS becoming a direct marketing issue for truck buyers with the introduction of the new Aluminum F-150. But even there, for the average joe it's all about the cost of fuel.
Most guys I know really don't care as much about the miles per gallon as they do about the miles per DOLLAR. It's the cost of gas that drives them to look for more efficient vehicles. As the cost of gas plummets, fuel economy vanishes from the average guys mind.
Power, strength, reliability, durability, tow-ability all take front place over milage.
C
An overweight Viper wins at cross country racing...
http://www.snowest.com/2014/12/yamahas-matt-piche-wins-pro
http://www.snowest.com/2014/12/yamahas-matt-piche-wins-pro
I
Yamaha won two classes, the lighter arctic cat won nine.
for some context here how many classes were each entered in please?
C
+1
Don't think Yammie would enter in as many classes.
At least it's nice to see them winning in cross country and hill climb.
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