MPI 850 Turbo: First Ride Impressions

christopher · Mar 20, 2017

snow4shover said:
As far as the quality of fuel, I pretty much ride at 7500 ft + and have been running straight pump NON ethanol with klotz octane boost. I currently have 480 miles on the kit with zero DET issues.

Klotz Octane Booster is a concentrated tetraethyl lead substitute formulated to increase the octane rating of gasoline up to 10 numbers or more. Helps eliminate engine damaging detonation, spark knock, pre-ignition, and pinging from low octane gasoline.

Octane Booster modifies the burn speed and flash point of gasoline to create a stable
combustion chamber flame front, maximizing performance and power. Stabilizes
oxygenated gasoline to prevent lean-out conditions. Klotz

Octane Booster provides needed upper cylinder lubrication that is missing in unleaded gasoline.
• Raise octane rating up to 10 numbers
• Improves throttle response and acceleration
• Prevents pinging and spark knock
• Stabilizes oxygenated gasoline
• Absorbs moisture in fuel system
• Preserves gasoline up to 16 months
• Eliminates gum and varnish build-up
• Catalytic converter safe

APPLICATION:
2/4-stroke gasoline - all
CHARACTERISTICS:
Color:
Green
Specific Gravity:
.800 @ 60
°
F
DIRECTIONS:
Compatibility:
All gasoline, synthetic lubricants and petroleum oils. Will blend lubricants and oils
with gasoline in extreme temperatures.

Octane Booster:
1oz Octane Booster per gallon of gasoline will raise the octane by 2 1/2 numbers. For best performance match the octane to the engines compression ratio. Use octane index A.K.I. and R+M/2. Octane Booster is effective in inverse ratios to the octane level of the base gasoline. All gasoline varies in sensitivity and quality.

Gasoline Stabilizer:
Preserves gasoline during storage. Add 1oz Octane Booster per gallon of
gasoline for 6 to 8 months, or 2 oz per gallon of gasoline for 12 to 16 months.

Fuel System Cleaner:
Add 16 oz Octane Booster to gas tank, treats up to 20 gallons of gasoline.
Protect painted surfaces, wash off immediately with water to prevent damage. Will not harm catalytic converters.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/klz-kl-602/overview/
$10.45

turboless terry · Mar 20, 2017

That is guaranteed snake oil. I bet it says if you put a whole can in it boosts it to 104.
I used it in my cat turbo, a whole can, and would hit the det sensor. I could put 1 or 2 gallons of av in for same boost and elevation and not hit det all day so you tell me if it works.

christopher · Mar 20, 2017

turboless terry said:
That is guaranteed snake oil. I bet it says if you put a whole can in it boosts it to 104.
I used it in my cat turbo, a whole can, and would hit the det sensor. I could put 1 or 2 gallons of av in for same boost and elevation and not hit det all day so you tell me if it works.

I have never used the stuff, but I do know some guys that swear by it..

one of the things I love the most about SnoWest is the ability to gather REAL WORLD user comments and sort through them to find the TRUTH of the matter.

turboless terry · Mar 20, 2017

It was torco I used. The make race fuel also. I bought it for the convenience when we were at Cooke or when we were at the box y lodge. Thought it would be easier then packing a bunch of av or race fuel. Det sensor tells the tale. Otherwise I would not have known. Also when using a whole can it's not that cheap. I was thinking it was $16 a can. My bet is the klotz is the same stuff.

christopher · Mar 20, 2017

turboless terry said:
It was torco I used. The make race fuel also. I bought it for the convenience when we were at Cooke or when we were at the box y lodge. Thought it would be easier then packing a bunch of av or race fuel. Det sensor tells the tale. Otherwise I would not have known. Also when using a whole can it's not that cheap. I was thinking it was $16 a can. My bet is the klotz is the same stuff.

Most people you talk to actually hold the KLOTZ product in pretty high regard, and its been around for a VERY long time.

I will fire off a question to MPI and see what their official position is.

mountainhorse · Mar 21, 2017

100LL mix... IMO... best quality solution.

The Klotz is a decent product, but a compromise IMO.
The web is full of info on this kind of thing.... with the consensus being that Race gas or 100LL is your best solution.... 100LL best bang for the buck and held to a very tight standard by the FAA.

100LL is about 103-104 MON.... Mix in about 2 gallons per tank... You'll be fine... and it is super high quality fuel.

From what Mac said eariler... 2 weeks these days is OLD pump fuel... even non ethanol because it has other oxidizers in it... Use a good stabilizer like the ARCHOIL 6200... I've had great luck in high dollar customers boats over the last two years....tiny bottle... treats 600+ gallons of gas...This is a stabilizer/treatment... NOT an octane booster... IMO... use this and 2 gallons (25% AV 100LL) and you will have rock steady DET protection at these low boost levels... and fuel that lasts for a good while.

Amazon
http://a.co/iHrKmWs

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mountainhorse · Mar 21, 2017

Some of the 850's have had rod failures...DET is a FAST way to put extra stress on pistons and rods...

IMO...Don't 'tickle' detonation in your sled like you have seen on your first ride... Run the 100LL right off the bat...

It is east to get... and not expensive.

.

fredw · Mar 21, 2017

Very good advice above, few gallons of av gas goes a long ways.. I run 100 percent av gas and never hit a det code yet in 2000 miles and run up to 10 lbs boost on the 800 Etec, easy to get at the airport

Never heard rods breaking yet on the 850, any pictures of that?? Seen a few piston skirts let go thou

Turbo11T · Mar 21, 2017

Unless the 850's are different. You maybe had a overrev/knock, I have experienced that with mine as it revs quickly and with a low load on the trail can overev quickly and that is on the slower reving 800
. Also midrange is typically pretty hot on a 2 stroke engine and etecs run very lean at steady midrange throttle. So knock is more likely in a lean condition. Run 80/20 91/100ll and you will be fine. Try to keep it at a consistant mixture though or you will eventually have more than 20% 100ll if you just start adding 2 gallons to every tank if it isn't empty.

christopher · Mar 21, 2017

Turbo11T said:
Unless the 850's are different. You maybe had a overrev/knock, I have experienced that with mine as it revs quickly and with a low load on the trail can overev quickly and that is on the slower reving 800

. Also midrange is typically pretty hot on a 2 stroke engine and etecs run very lean at steady midrange throttle. So knock is more likely in a lean condition.

Run 80/20 91/100ll and you will be fine. Try to keep it at a consistent mixture though or you will eventually have more than 20% 100ll if you just start adding 2 gallons to every tank if it isn't empty.

OK
The Over-Rev comment really strikes home.
The 850 with the Turbo on it REVS UP INCREDIBLY FAST!
That make far more sense to meas a viable explanation of what I saw.And I was completely UNaware of the midrange comment.

There is NO downside to running higher octane other than the cost.
Safety wise you will ALWAYS be in the clear if you are tossing in fresh 100LL or 110 Race Gas.

So for ME, the simple solution is to just go buy a couple 5 gallon cans of VP110 and add a gallon or two to the tank every-time I fill up, just like I used to do on my Supercharged Nytro and Turbo Viper. It was CHEAP insurance and I NEVER had any engine issues with either of those sleds!

mountainhorse · Mar 21, 2017

The VP110 is a high quality product that, IMO, has the best thermal properties of any of the 110 race fuels that translate to better transitional throttle response.

If you can get it at a decent price.... 1 gallon in an approx 9 gallon tank will go a long way at the reasonable boost levels you have with the MPI kit.

As you say...good 'insurance'

.

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mountainhorse · Mar 21, 2017

christopher said:
There is NO downside to running higher octane other than the cost.

Too much octane is a performance detractor... finding the right balance with your fuel is like having good clutching.... but no where near as difficult :face-icon-small-dis

With the turbo as a good "MAP regulator".... clutching calibration, once dialed-in, will be more consistent over a wide variety of elevations than a N.A. sled. :face-icon-small-coo

.

madmax · Mar 21, 2017

Chris, next time you are at the dealer have him check your codes. My guess is you hit your knock sensor around 7,000rpm. That's where I've seen it on this engine. The ECU will record when your sensor went off, what your coolant temp was at the time it went off and at what rpm the code was set, all info available with the dealer buds program.
I ran my 850 turbo on straight 91 pump for the first 400 miles with one knock code at about the 200 mile mark. Been running 2gal 110 for the last 120 miles just to be safe. Everyone I know that runs a "pump gas" turbo at elevation runs a little race gas or octane boost just to be safe, it's dam cheap insurance.

christopher · Mar 21, 2017

madmax said:
Chris, next time you are at the dealer have him check your codes. My guess is you hit your knock sensor around 7,000rpm. That's where I've seen it on this engine. The ECU will record when your sensor went off, what your coolant temp was at the time it went off and at what rpm the code was set, all info available with the dealer buds program.

I ran my 850 turbo on straight 91 pump for the first 400 miles with one knock code at about the 200 mile mark. Been running 2gal 110 for the last 120 miles just to be safe. Everyone I know that runs a "pump gas" turbo at elevation runs a little race gas or octane boost just to be safe, it's dam cheap insurance.

Thats easy enough.
Will have my buddy at Rexburg Motor Sports plug in the sled and take a peek at what it recorded on Saturday.

NWaxys · Mar 21, 2017

christopher said:
Most people you talk to actually hold the KLOTZ product in pretty high regard, and its been around for a VERY long time.

I will fire off a question to MPI and see what their official position is.

Have tried numerous race blends. No octane boosters but will tell you AV 100 ll has been the most consistent fuel I've ever ran. We run 2.5 -3 gallons a tank out here from 4000-7500 in Washington never one issue

Chadly · Mar 21, 2017

No experience or a clue on the 850 but the 800 Etec did not like too high of octane. I started running straight 110 then went to 103 and ended up with straight 96 on my BoonDocker turbos. You can have too much octane. It made the lag much worse...

JJ_0909 · Mar 22, 2017

Only wanted to comment on one thing - I love your passion Chris, it's awesome.

However, I don't know how you can comment on a 12 hour install being something "good" these days. Its cool you can do it in the normal sledder's garage, but there are plenty of kits that take a fraction of that time.

I get that its super hard to test everything out there, but I think having the clarity as to what is what and what is "par for the course" in the sledding environment is the job of a good product editor.

mountainhorse · Mar 22, 2017

Reticence ?

Christopher... do you have any reluctance to using 100LL? (If so, why?)

100LL is cheap in comparison to VP100.... and, I hear, very much 'readily available' in your area.

MON of 100LL is about 104

MON of VP110 is 106

MON of 'Pump 91" 87-89

The resultant mix at approx 20-25%, in terms of Octane, will be VERY close between the VP110 and the 100LL... and, IMO, a better solution that depending on "octane boosters"

.

.

.

JJ_0909 · Mar 22, 2017

mountainhorse said:
Christopher... do you have any reluctance to using 100LL? (If so, why?)

100LL is cheap in comparison to VP100.... and, I hear, very much 'readily available' in your area.

MON of 100LL is about 104

MON of VP110 is 106

MON of 'Pump 91" 87-89

The resultant mix at approx 20-25%, in terms of Octane, will be VERY close between the VP110 and the 100LL... and, IMO, a better solution that depending on "octane boosters"

.

.

.

Agreed with MH here!

I am guessing Chris goes with 110 as there is a race gas station near Rexburg.

100 AV LL is cheaper and in a number of ways, better, when it comes to knock protection. I only say this as the shelf life is better, its more stable and so consistent location to location. Better to dial in with this and be able to fill up anywhere in the country than to mess with potentially skunky race gas.

nuttyn01 · Mar 22, 2017

octane

Octane is Octane, it doesn't matter where you get it as long as you have enough to eliminate detonation.

The MPI kit is the first kit I have ever used that incorporates EBC. This really simplifies the guess work in regard to octane requirements from elevation to elevation. It would be nice to see other kit manufacturers incorporate this as well.

MPI 850 Turbo: First Ride Impressions

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