• Don't miss out on all the fun! Register on our forums to post and have added features! Membership levels include a FREE membership tier.

Climate change

Big10inch

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Premium Member
Mar 11, 2018
926
888
93
The wildfires are completely unnecessary. They let them burn on purpose. The big one down south of me burned for months this summer. Interestingly enough they were able to keep it out of the Purgatory ski area but let it burn up thousands more acres in the area. So if they could stop it there, why not just stop it right away? My favorite was the rain day they couldn't fight the fire because the roads were too muddy, what a freaking joke.


It isn't climate change causing the fires, it is climate change proponents causing the fires. Let the loggers and road builders back in and the fires will be minimized. Let the dead material pile up and close all of the roads and wala, you have out of control fires. It is really pretty simple.
 
R

Raff_9001M

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2007
317
89
28
The wildfires are completely unnecessary. They let them burn on purpose. The big one down south of me burned for months this summer. Interestingly enough they were able to keep it out of the Purgatory ski area but let it burn up thousands more acres in the area. So if they could stop it there, why not just stop it right away? My favorite was the rain day they couldn't fight the fire because the roads were too muddy, what a freaking joke.


It isn't climate change causing the fires, it is climate change proponents causing the fires. Let the loggers and road builders back in and the fires will be minimized. Let the dead material pile up and close all of the roads and wala, you have out of control fires. It is really pretty simple.

In certain areas they do let them burn on purpose. Is there something wrong with that? Humans are arrogant. We routinely build thousands of homes in areas where natural disasters are likely and act shocked when the disaster occurs. County and state government needs to step up and possibly provide stricter regulations or better guidelines on where to build or ensure homeowners are aware of the potential dangers.

Furthermore there is nothing simple about the widland fire environment. Putting out fires while small is is nice, can be safer but can lead to bigger problems down the road. The wildfire community- volunteers, state and federal resources are quite efficient and a very dedicated group. Not everything is a conspiracy theory

I like the idea of logging as well and also believe it can reduce the impacts of wildfire. Unfortunately the timber industry in many parts of the West is too diminished in capacity to make a difference. I don't see it making a return in many areas due to the fact that it is too costly to reinvest in the infrastructure of the mills. Time will tell
 

Big10inch

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Premium Member
Mar 11, 2018
926
888
93
In certain areas they do let them burn on purpose. Is there something wrong with that? Humans are arrogant. We routinely build thousands of homes in areas where natural disasters are likely and act shocked when the disaster occurs. County and state government needs to step up and possibly provide stricter regulations or better guidelines on where to build or ensure homeowners are aware of the potential dangers.


Yes, there are several thing wrong with just letting them burn in many cases. They may be burning where it doesn't make any difference but the smoke impacts communities downwind. The city of Delta CO this summer routinely turned brown this summer. The smoke was oppressive and a real health concern for many. Insurance companies stopped writing homeowners policies in the area which curtailed the economy to some extent.


I agree that people build in stupid places, whether it be in the woods, on the ocean, next to a volcano, you name it. Doesn't have anything to do with poor land management by the govt though.



Furthermore there is nothing simple about the widland fire environment. Putting out fires while small is is nice, can be safer but can lead to bigger problems down the road. The wildfire community- volunteers, state and federal resources are quite efficient and a very dedicated group. Not everything is a conspiracy theory


Not adequately fighting fires by playing the safety card is a JOKE. You no longer fight them at night, too scary, can't fight them in the rain, too uddy. Just reading the daily reports infuriates me. Lazy, inept bunch of chicken chits IMO. I have a fair amount of experience with controlled burns in mountainous terrain with very limited water. I have handled runaways with no more than two guys with shovels. Efficient? That is another JOKE. I see thousands deployed to fight these fires and in most cases they are unable to adequately control the fires. The govt has NEVER been good at stuff like this. Too many stupid rules against doing it efficiently.

I like the idea of logging as well and also believe it can reduce the impacts of wildfire. Unfortunately the timber industry in many parts of the West is too diminished in capacity to make a difference. I don't see it making a return in many areas due to the fact that it is too costly to reinvest in the infrastructure of the mills. Time will tell

There is still a massive market for timber products in this country. We outsource most of it because of stupid environmentalist rulings. When it is profitable again, just like gas/oil, the industry will make a comeback. You make a good point though. It has been gone so long almost nobody knows how to properly cut trees, build roads or mill lumber anymore. Another tragedy perpetuated by our misguided govt entities.
 

Jean-Luc Picard

Well-known member
Premium Member
Aug 25, 2017
948
805
93
Blackfoot, Idaho
www.bennyfifeaudio.com
Climate change logic circuits missing

So... The argument to let them burn by those who adhere faithfully to climate change science definitely needs to see about getting their neurons talking to each other a little more. What are the "greenhouse gases" again? And what is put into the atmosphere in enormous amounts by wildfires? Climate Change science should dictate that it's a whole lot more effective to manage the forest by cutting & logging it responsibly. But no, we'd rather build houses out of things other than lumber & recycle all our paper instead of produce new paper.
 
R

Raff_9001M

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2007
317
89
28
Yes, there are several thing wrong with just letting them burn in many cases. They may be burning where it doesn't make any difference but the smoke impacts communities downwind. The city of Delta CO this summer routinely turned brown this summer. The smoke was oppressive and a real health concern for many. Insurance companies stopped writing homeowners policies in the area which curtailed the economy to some extent.


I agree that people build in stupid places, whether it be in the woods, on the ocean, next to a volcano, you name it. Doesn't have anything to do with poor land management by the govt though.


Not adequately fighting fires by playing the safety card is a JOKE. You no longer fight them at night, too scary, can't fight them in the rain, too uddy. Just reading the daily reports infuriates me. Lazy, inept bunch of chicken chits IMO. I have a fair amount of experience with controlled burns in mountainous terrain with very limited water. I have handled runaways with no more than two guys with shovels. Efficient? That is another JOKE. I see thousands deployed to fight these fires and in most cases they are unable to adequately control the fires. The govt has NEVER been good at stuff like this. Too many stupid rules against doing it

Hate to say but fire is an important way to manage forests along with timber management. You can't cut your way out of fire risk entirely. Smoke sucks for sure but again we live in a forested environment. Expect it from time to time.

Over 2000 fires were reported in the rocky mountain area so far in 2018. Over 95% were contained within 1 operational period. That is efficiency, that is working nights and not really chicken chit in my opinion and all managed by local, state and federal government. It does work. Sorry but a few shifts of controlled burning does not an expert make.

As far as.climate change and fires - yep puts some bad stuff in the environment for sure. . But since climate change is a conspiracy greenhouse gas emissions are irrelevant
 

Big10inch

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Premium Member
Mar 11, 2018
926
888
93
Hate to say but fire is an important way to manage forests along with timber management. You can't cut your way out of fire risk entirely. Smoke sucks for sure but again we live in a forested environment. Expect it from time to time.

Over 2000 fires were reported in the rocky mountain area so far in 2018. Over 95% were contained within 1 operational period. That is efficiency, that is working nights and not really chicken chit in my opinion and all managed by local, state and federal government. It does work. Sorry but a few shifts of controlled burning does not an expert make.

As far as.climate change and fires - yep puts some bad stuff in the environment for sure. . But since climate change is a conspiracy greenhouse gas emissions are irrelevant





That's pretty funny. What is one operational period, four months? The Durango fire burned that long this summer and the Fire west of Delta is probably still burning at least four months in. It is a complete fallacy that the wildfires are being well managed and contained. Ask someone from California what they think of that statement right now. Spare me the rhetoric and be truthful about fighting fires at night because that has not been happening for decades.


The forest are being managed by idiots or we wouldn't even be having this conversation because the few natural fires needed to keep a balance wouldn't even be worth talking about.


It is a huge money making business, one you are obviously involved with. Big surprise that you want to see it continue as is. Most of us however, those footing the bills and paying the price with our health really are not very impressed.
 
R

Raff_9001M

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2007
317
89
28
That's pretty funny. What is one operational period, four months? The Durango fire burned that long this summer and the Fire west of Delta is probably still burning at least four months in. It is a complete fallacy that the wildfires are being well managed and contained. Ask someone from California what they think of that statement right now. Spare me the rhetoric and be truthful about fighting fires at night because that has not been happening for decades.


The forest are being managed by idiots or we wouldn't even be having this conversation because

It is a huge money making business, one you are obviously involved with. Big surprise that you want to see it continue as is. Most of us however, those footing the bills and paying the price with our health really are not very impressed.

I would think one with all your experience would know what an operational period is. Fires are actively being fought at night. It has been happening for decades. Annually over 95% of fires are contained in the first operational period. That seems well managed

California fires are a tragedy for sure. Will be praying for those communities
 

Big10inch

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Premium Member
Mar 11, 2018
926
888
93
I would think one with all your experience would know what an operational period is. Fires are actively being fought at night. It has been happening for decades. Annually over 95% of fires are contained in the first operational period. That seems well managed

California fires are a tragedy for sure. Will be praying for those communities





Hillarious that you wont share what an "operational period" is. All my experience is in the private sector, I am not a government paid drone like yourself.


Why would you pray for people that brought tragedy on themselves? California is in peril based on stupid decisions. I love the sympathy as you collect the money though. Aren't you even the least bit embarrassed for fleecing the public like you do?


Log it, build the roads to support the logging, spray for insects, manage the damn forests like we did 30-40 years ago. We didn't need all of you freaking wildland firefighter "heros" back then. It IS a conspiracy, whether you like to admit your part in cultivating it or not is on your conscience. I personally find it pathetic to come and try and justify stealing from the public and defending horrific forest management practices so you can make a living off of watching our forests burn.


Face it, you SUCK at your job.
 
R

Raff_9001M

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2007
317
89
28
Hillarious that you wont share what an "operational period" is. All my experience is in the private sector, I am not a government paid drone like yourself.


Why would you pray for people that brought tragedy on themselves? California is in peril based on stupid decisions. I love the sympathy as you collect the money though. Aren't you even the least bit embarrassed for fleecing the public like you do?


Log it, build the roads to support the logging, spray for insects, manage the damn forests like we did 30-40 years ago. We didn't need all of you freaking wildland firefighter "heros" back then. It IS a conspiracy, whether you like to admit your part in cultivating it or not is on your conscience. I personally find it pathetic to come and try and justify stealing from the public and defending horrific forest management practices so you can make a living off of watching our forests burn.

9
Face it, you SUCK at your job.

Yet another shining example of I did that once so I'm an expert. One operational period for initial attack is when a fire is contained by those forces without a break in service. Usualy less than 12 hours

Tragedy on themselves still can evoke empathy. No different than those who go through a hurricane and flood.

Move along now keyboard warrior to your next worthless conspiracy theory or pick up your shovel and sit on that ridge and show me how it's done
 

turboless terry

Well-known member
Premium Member
Jan 15, 2008
5,554
6,739
113
Big Timber, MT
Build in the forest and get burned out. Build below sea level and get flooded out. You can still feel sorry for them. The first time is mother nature's fault. The second time is their fault. A bunch of the people against logging are the first to build a log home in the forest. They have done more damage than anyone. Look at Jackson. Used to be a cool place years ago. Now it is just overrun with houses and liberals. I am not for roads everywhere but I would have helicopter logged the park after the fires. What a waste. It is far from all natural. Big money and poor management have corrupted everything.
 

Big10inch

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Premium Member
Mar 11, 2018
926
888
93
Yet another shining example of I did that once so I'm an expert. One operational period for initial attack is when a fire is contained by those forces without a break in service. Usualy less than 12 hours

Tragedy on themselves still can evoke empathy. No different than those who go through a hurricane and flood.

Move along now keyboard warrior to your next worthless conspiracy theory or pick up your shovel and sit on that ridge and show me how it's done



In fact I spent three summers logging and burning under the purvue of a guy with 15 years experience and his buddy with 50 years experience. I learned a lot. Glad you are an expert on my experience. What kind of dumbass makes those kind of assumptions about others without even asking? Oh yeah, YOU.


I think your stats are BS. I have NEVER seen a fire put out in Colorado in 12 hours. Once they get started, they burn for months and months. The firefighters here must really suck. Maybe you could give them lessons mister expert man.


Happy to show you how its done. I don't need to set up camps, bring in experts, equipment and the like. Just put the damn fire out, it isn't that hard. Doesn't happen like that here. The fire reports are on inciweb for all to see. How do you explain the ones that keep burning all summer even with thousands deployed to watch them burn, er, fight them.


Its a joke, one you are a part of clearly Mr Jokerman. How many years have you been stealing from the public anyway? Perpetuating this myth that you are important to the process?
 
R

Raff_9001M

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2007
317
89
28
In fact I spent three summers logging and burning under the purvue of a guy with 15 years experience and his buddy with 50 years experience. I learned a lot. Glad you are an expert on my experience. What kind of dumbass makes those kind of assumptions about others without even asking? Oh yeah, YOU.


I think your stats are BS. I have NEVER seen a fire put out in Colorado in 12 hours. Once they get started, they burn for months and months. The firefighters here must really suck. Maybe you could give them lessons mister expert man.


Happy to show you how its done. I don't need to set up camps, bring in experts, equipment and the like. Just put the damn fire out, it isn't that hard. Doesn't happen like that here. The fire reports are on inciweb for all to see. How do you explain the ones that keep burning all summer even with thousands deployed to watch them burn, er, fight them.


Its a joke, one you are a part of clearly Mr Jokerman. How many years have you been stealing from the public anyway? Perpetuating this myth that you are important to the process?

20 plus years all in fire. 95% of wildfires are contained within 1 operational period. Next
 

turboless terry

Well-known member
Premium Member
Jan 15, 2008
5,554
6,739
113
Big Timber, MT
I think you are talking about 2 different fires. Your 95 percent are probably average fires most don't hear about. He is talking about the major ones that don't get put out in a bunch of cycles. Even though fire does some good we can't let them go anymore. Put them out. It will burn enough before it's out. If I start a fire I can get sued but the forest circus start one or doesn't put it out and burns everyone out and there's no recourse. The forest service should be disbanded and start over. They have completely lost their way. There is no service anymore. Just a bunch of left leaning, agenda driven people. It is the same as unions or any other government agency. Might have been started for a good reason but have now lost their way. So yes, I think fires are big business anymore. This world is far from all natural anymore. Things have to be managed properly or you have tragedies like California. As said as it is, that is the only way to wake people up. Same with grizzly bears and mountain lions. It takes someone getting mauled or killed before people wake up. Heaven forbid a little management ahead of time.
I am not trying to trash on your 20 years of experience but I have heard it before. I've been doing this for 40 years. Well it doesn't matter how long you have done something if you are doing it wrong so I take experience with a grain of salt. There is more than one way to skin a cat and sometimes people aren't willing to change or think they are too smart to learn anything.
I guess the moral of the story is the right is for less government and the left thinks government fixes everything even though they flub everything up. This leads to corrupt agenda driven biases. You never get the good guys. They are out in the real world doing things and being for something instead of against everything. They aren't out there protesting over climate change or God knows what else. Same thing in the construction business. Most of the inspectors are people that are lazy and couldn't make it in the real world. There lies the management problems.
 
R

Raff_9001M

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2007
317
89
28
I think you are talking about 2 different fires. Your 95 percent are probably average fires most don't hear about. He is talking about the major ones that don't get put out in a bunch of cycles. Even though fire does some good we can't let them go anymore. Put them out. It will burn enough before it's out. If I start a fire I can get sued but the forest circus start one or doesn't put it out and burns everyone out and there's no recourse. The forest service should be disbanded and start over. They have completely lost their way. There is no service anymore. Just a bunch of left leaning, agenda driven people. It is the same as unions or any other government agency. Might have been started for a good reason but have now lost their way. So yes, I think fires are big business anymore. This world is far from all natural anymore. Things have to be managed properly or you have tragedies like California. As said as it is, that is the only way to wake people up. Same with grizzly bears and mountain lions. It takes someone getting mauled or killed before people wake up. Heaven forbid a little management ahead of time.
I am not trying to trash on your 20 years of experience but I have heard it before. I've been doing this for 40 years. Well it doesn't matter how long you have done something if you are doing it wrong so I take experience with a grain of salt. There is more than one way to skin a cat and sometimes people aren't willing to change or think they are too smart to learn anything.
I guess the moral of the story is the right is for less government and the left thinks government fixes everything even though they flub everything up. This leads to corrupt agenda driven biases. You never get the good guys. They are out in the real world doing things and being for something instead of against everything. They aren't out there protesting over climate change or God knows what else. Same thing in the construction business. Most of the inspectors are people that are lazy and couldn't make it in the real world. There lies the management problems.

I'll take some of that. I don't lean left and I don't lean right. I'm sure most on this forum will agree that all levels of forest management is fraught. What we may disagree with is how it came to be. For every conservative on this forum that say we don't log enough, is a liberal that says we log too much. For every comment that says too much land is closed to snowmobiling is another that says too much land is open to snowmobiling. What is the answer? Compromise? How is that working out in America these days. I'll ask you, if were required by law to receive comments and respond to those comments (often by folks who know nothing of construction) every time you endeavored a construction project how would that work out? Would it be efficient? Would you enjoy working under those premises. The environmental regulations that you all refer are not the product land management agencies. Those are laws handed down by congress and the states and upheld by the courts. Agencies are required to follow those laws.

As much as Big10 would like to reach through that screen and choke me right now, I will stand shoulder to shoulder with him and continue to advocate for better forest management. That includes timber management with logging - and a lot of it. I have always been impressed by the timber industry where I'm from. They are great stewards of the land, great for local economies and a necessary component of forest management.

Fire does have a role in forest management however. Not every fire can be put out quickly nor should it. When a fire can burn an entire community in hours, no amount of resources can stop that. When a fire ignites and within 20 minutes transitions to a crown fire, no amount of resources can stop that. When fuels, weather and topography align, fire will do what its going to do; and sometimes no amount of logging will change that. Sometimes, a fire can best be described as a natural disaster, much like a hurricane. No amount of proper management can change that - sometimes.

Fire is a big business. When we continue to build homes in areas that are likely to experience fire, it gets expensive - quickly. That is not the fault of federal land management, yet federal land management is now forced to deal with it. That takes money from other programs that would have possibly reduced the impacts from the next disturbance event. However, I will continue to advocate that the reason we talk about the 416, Lake Christine, Silver Creek and Spring Creek fires in Colorado this year, is because these chicken chit, lazy worthless firefighters are not only managing those fires, but the more than 2000 fires that were reported in the rocky mountain area. Many you never even know about because the "we suck at our jobs" folks are actually quite effective with initial attack and those other 2000 fires were contained quickly so as not to burn for months at a time. To Big10 and TT's defense, those fires I mentioned specifically were damaging, produced smoky atmospheres, burned for a very long period of time and burned homes. That is tragic. It is now the reality with which we are faced. Complex decisions must be made that allocate resources to the priority area. Decisions you may not agree with but are being made by dedicated professionals.

My point to all this: Be objective and stop blaming and stop oversimplifying complex issues. It is not always the government and not always a conspiracy. If I ask you to build a home for me, I might question because I do not know. I will not question and say you suck because I watched a you tube video on how to pour concrete. I will ask because I believe you to be an expert in your field. I am good at what I do as I am sure you are good at what you do. I do not deceive and I do not lie. As I'm sure you would in your profession, I will defend the actions of the wildland fire community against claims that have very little basis in reality.
 

Jean-Luc Picard

Well-known member
Premium Member
Aug 25, 2017
948
805
93
Blackfoot, Idaho
www.bennyfifeaudio.com
Same with grizzly bears and mountain lions. It takes someone getting mauled or killed before people wake up. Heaven forbid a little management ahead of time.
This. Yes.

So Idaho & Wyoming were going to allow a grizzly hunt this year & some stupid judge blocked it. It's not like it was "lets hunt them to extinction." I think there were going to be like 2 tags issued in Idaho & 4 in wyoming or some other absurdly low number. They have to kill that many every year anyway because of someone getting mauled, or a bear who won't stay away from humans, etc. Why not make a little money for the state doing so, instead of paying some park ranger who doesn't want to go & shoot it. I sort of understood bringing wolves back. Grizzlies, not so much. You used to be able to camp in a tent in yellowstone & now you can't. Way to disenfranchise young families from Yellowstone. The vicious man eating bears are obviously more important.
 
Premium Features