Asking for riders' input about winter non-motorized areas (PART 6)

modsledr said:

Again, if you want to discuss reasonable options and actually collaborate, then maybe we can get somewhere.

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Did you miss the second part?

me too.

This section (PART 6) of this discussion is continued from PART-5 for further reading and discussion.

PART-5 CAN BE VIEWED BY CLICKING HERE.

HAPPY FATHERS DAY TO ALL!!

modsledr said:

nope...just tired of the doublespeak and false statements from WMC.

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Do you think snowmobilers should have any responsibility for snowmobile trespass into wilderness? How far should snowmobilers go to resolve this issue?

modsledr said:

You need to re-read my post...I was commenting specifically on WMC's continued use of misleading or false statements, and WMC's continued refusal to discuss any idea that does not include closing of more land to snowmobiles.

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Agreed, they have stated a lot of things like that.. I guess I thought the "second" option looked more compromising and I assumed that minimal lands of importance to snowmobilers (yah, insert big astricks there) would be turned over to non-motorized users.. Maybe that is a false hope?

modsledr said:

Winter Brew said it best...if WMC's proposal was accepted in any form, then what about the next group that wants to close off their own special area? And the next? And the next? The precedent this would set is a dangerous and slippery slope...do not get sucked into their false promise of "work with us and this is all we will ever ask for".

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I absolutely agree 100%. This is something to be very mindful of. The WMC is a small group of people, and it has support from some large supporters in this area, (The Mountaineers and the Winter Wildlands Association). Just because the WMC has achieved a compromise that is satisfactory to them, doesn't mean those same large supporters will help in support of further restrictions for snowmobile use. I am not sure how much swing the WMC would have if it went against the two groups above. IMO, hardly any at all..

modsledr said:

Bottom line, it is public land, and WMC has no more right to it than any other group.

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That state doesn't mean anything in this discussion. It isn't about right to be on the land, it is about the right to do specific things on it. Congress has already stipulated (whether right or wrong) that we do not have the right to do anything we want on public lands, (e.g. Wilderness designation).

modsledr said:

IMO, this statement means EVERYTHING in this discussion. It is ABSOLUTELY about the right to be on (non-wilderness) public land.

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Hasn't the FS already shown that it can, will, and does have the power and ability to create non-motorized areas? Hasn't it already done this? I am not arguing if it is right or wrong, it just seems the FS has already come to a consensus on this issue. Am I correct in this assumption?

modsledr said:

WMC wants to portion of their own little honey hole because that area is convenient to them...and I do not believe this is acceptable.

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Yep, that is what it looks like. A group of local users voicing their opinions to the FS for their wants and needs for their specific riding locations.

whos side is ruffy on?what a joke

Yeah I have to admit...I'm lost

The point I was trying to make was that we do not have the implicit right to ride our snowmobiles where ever we want in the non-Wilderness forest lands. The FS has the ability to remove motorized use from the forest. It has done this many times already for past motorized activities and areas.

Saying that we have a right to ride there on a snowmobile, while sounds good, does not seem correct based on FS precedence. Also, it isn't an issue that WMC is in control of. While they might have a prerogative to get his stash be deemed non-motorized, it is ultimately the FS that makes / allows / enforces this to happen.

I guess the analogy would be to argue that prohibition should be the law (outlawing alcohol) against a person trying to get a liquor license or open a bar. The prohibition argument is to be used against the government, not the business man, the business man doesn't make the rules. I think the same should be said for WMC. They aren't the ones that allow the removal of our snowmobiling in areas, it is the FS that does that, and congress as well.

It just seemed like the argument about it is our right to snowmobile in a specific area should be made against the FS, not with someone that obviously believes and thinks otherwise, with the FS backing up that belief.

Did that clear it up? Or did I just confuse myself... lol

I agree with Ruffy that definitely don't have the right to use any public land however we choose. This is an endless argument. Should we be able to harvest timber anywhere we want on public land? run our jeeps anywhere we want? motorcycles? the majority of the public isn't going to see snowmobiles any differently than these other uses.

But, as long as a use (snowmobiling) isn't negatively impacting an area, one user should not have use exclusive over others; the exception being that one group prevents use by others. This is WMCs argument. This is also completely ridiculous, at least in this area. I'll say it again: you can go to the Teanaway any day of the winter and find entire basins with all the untracked lines you want, and few skiers are there anyway. These guys are pissed about the fact that whenever they area up there, they see sled tracks in Wilderness. They're going to try and capitalize on the fact that sledders are dumb enough to keep doing it, and keep giving them and the USFS more ammo.

This is where WMC is right; we need to deal with sledders in Wilderness. It's a stupid, selfish act that makes us all look bad and puts access to some of our favorite riding areas at risk. I'd be willing to bet that this whole controversy wouldn't even exist if sledders would stay out of Wilderness.

newtrout said:

This is where WMC is right; we need to deal with sledders in Wilderness. It's a stupid, selfish act that makes us all look bad and puts access to some of our favorite riding areas at risk. I'd be willing to bet that this whole controversy wouldn't even exist if sledders would stay out of Wilderness.

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they certainly wouldn't have the strength in their arguement for closure. Then it would get down to simple selfishness for the additional territory. But because we do have sledders encroaching in to the illegal areas, it gives them more weight for an angle with USFS.

We simply need to get enforcement and cooperation on wilderness incursions along with common courtesy of sharing or having consideration for others(non-motorized) users when we get to a play area. If you see skiers, simply ask....how's the day? Where you heading? and then show some respect for the effort they put forth to get to the areas that we make much more easily.

Otherwise, they will have ammunition and USFS will establish individual user areas, which means more closure for us. With that said, once WMC can produce a map, look at it and then give opinion on the areas to see if it's high value and frequently used. At this point it's an opposing viewpoint, but let's listen, suggest and see if a working solution can be had without creating more enemies by simply saying "no"....

modsledr said:

If groups like WMC would come to us and express their concerns about wilderness incursions and ask us to do something about it, then we could talk...

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I think the problem is that skiers tell their concerns to the FS and the FS tell us about these issues. This particular issue is nothing new. This has been going on for a while, and snowmobilers have not done much to stop the problem.

Shouldn't the example of Randonee before be an indicator as to the general attitude of most snowmobilers towards Wilderness incursions? Or should I say used to be an indicator?

Like most things in life, we respond best when threatened it seems. Right now, it seems like it took a threat to take away our riding areas for snowmobilers to start taking Wilderness incursions seriously and to start doing something about it, instead of just saying " I don't support it".

the 1 only time i seen a sled go into an off limit area the rider had skis strapped to his back.makes me wonder if he turned around,took a pic and posted it on a ski forum.

WMC says... "The fact that some snowmobile riders do not "share" thus skiers and snowshoers are left with few places to avoid snowmobiles endangers your sport and will eventually harm it."

Can you elaborate on this? What specific incident(s) have you seen where a sledder did not "share" with another user group?....I think it's not a case of not "sharing" but a choice made by skier/shoer to not go where there are sleds.
Has there ever been an incident where a skier/shoer was harmed by a snowmobile? Snowmobile numbers peaked in the late 1990's and numbers have decreased (and continue to drop), so there is less chance of this happening than in the past.

Excuse me for chiming in late on this. Modsledder..PM me with what this is all about and get me up to speed please.

WMC..username: who are you. You speak on behalf of an organization yet you dont leave your name. Are you actually authorized to speak in behalf of that organization. It looks like Rondondee to me using a different username. Can someone in admin check the Ip or Mac address of WMC and compare to Rondondee? This sounds all to familure.

Who is WMC..is that the "Wasatch Mountain Club" by any chance?

Ruffy: Rondondee is NOT a snowmobiler. He is a skier want a bee that uses the sled to get him to where he can ski. Look at his picture and see how over weight he is and you will see why he uses a cargo plane to get his arse to a run.

Now to WMC: take note..when you impose or try to get restrictions against snowmobilers you are also limiting many or us US Military Veterans that have disabilities that limit us from being able to just hike and ski. It is a form of discrimination to the Disabled Veteran and against any other person with a disability. Do you think you will be able to do what you are doing for ever? Do you not think you might get old someday and be less capacitated than before? By limiting access you may be screwing yourself for the years to come. You are trying to restrict an individual from his limited ability to enjoy what part of his/her life they are able to still enjoy for what ever trumped up reason..shame on you!

I used to ski and rock climb until an accident in the military left me unable to continue that type of activity. I can ride a snowmobile and get some enjoyment.

WMC..who the hell are you to try to limit my enjoyment. I am the disabled Veteran that helped to keep some of your freedoms alive. Try thinking about those other than yourself..now take your greedy self centered ideas and shove them. I am tired of being PC with the mentality of WMC and Rondondee and his hidden agendas.
If you want to limit snowmobiling than we should also limit the use of a snowmobile to be used in Search and rescue(I know thats stupid) Its funny how happy you are when a skier is lost and the snowmobiler finds them and saves them on his own time and dime.

Reminds me of the Doctor in Wenatchee that was lost for a day and night while he was on skis with his broken elbow. He had a real change of heart regarding snowmobiles as it was not for them he might not have been able to see his family ever again.

Mark
US Navy Vet.