Snowmobiling in Closed Areas

MARCUSO · Jan 30, 2008

All in all we all must play nice together in the sandbox.

Wade, when you mention that the skiers can go anywhere, and sleds can't... think of it this way. How long would it take a recreational skier to wreck your fresh powder in your riding area? probably a few weeks. in one bowl.

..but for a sledder to wreck the snow of a recreational skier, it could be done in about 10 minutes. If sleds were slow, and skiers were fast, say.. the performance reversed, I am sure you would see it differently.

When I see a guy climbing up the side of a mountain with their own 2 feet to get a ski run in on fresh pow, I totally respect their passion and love for their sport... after all we are all back there to enjoy the backcountry./

All in all, everyone should just respect each other and have fun.

Bagger, you have a lot of great points, THey had no right to complain.
Every time I run into a skier, or boarder, I get a warm response. I usually just wave and they wave back, and I leave them alone.

Wade · Jan 30, 2008

Why yes, sledders can cover more ground, that's true. I believe skiers already have nearly 200 million acres that are closed to snowmobiling. At the rate they trash fresh powder, that should be plenty for them. But, like others have said, generally they don't want to pay for access, they just want to use ours, then complain that we are there. I don't disrespect skiers, I just expect them to get their butts out of bed early, if they want freshies. And, I expect them to pay for access, to build a parking lot right next to the wilderness, so they can actually access all the sled free areas that they contend they need so badly. You realize that 33% of your snowmobile gas tax is given to skiers to build skier-only development? We pay a lot for their access, and they still whine.

xrated · Jan 31, 2008

I had no idea about that Wade, thanks for bringing that to the front.

Bagged, good on you. I'm wondering what the other guy who wasn't a putz did during that deal?

Anti-Hero · Jan 31, 2008

The best solution is to get rid of the Wilderness area nobody uses it so why is it there? Make the entire area multi uses and if the skiers cannot get along with the sledder tough $hit. The people that cry about sleds going here or there are just as bad or worse then the skiers crying like little girls.

Belle Star · Jan 31, 2008

Bagger said:
It's interesting talking to differant people and seeing how they feel.

Couple weekends ago, D and I were sledding up some forest service roads to access Lost Lake. We could have taken the groomed trail around, but why?
Anyway, I'm seeing snowshoe tracks in the groomed trail at the beginning of the trip, and then they turned onto the ungroomed FS roads. So I'm being careful and going as slow as possible in 3' of powder.

Pretty soon we come around a corner and here are three dogs jumping up to get a view above the snow, and four snowshoer's (two couples) in the middle of the road. We stopped and talked to them (they looked lost) (and were)and I joked that they needed taller dogs. One guy was pretty cool, the other was pretty steamed that we were bothering them. He kept making the comment that they were trying to avoid the snowmobiles and kept trying to get me to say that my sled would go anywhere.

I assured him that in MY hands at least, it wouldn't go just anywhere, and that sledding was A LOT of work. I even offered to let him ride the sled. He refused, I told him that was probably good, 'cause if he rode it his dog wouldn't like him anymore.

Anyway, he came back to the "they wanted peace and quiet and we were bothering thier experiance" thing. I asked him if he was aware that just a couple miles down the road there was an entire trail system that was set aside for human powered snow sports. No he did not. He knew the area and I didn't.

Now, I should probably mention here that I'm a map guy. I mean I have a thing for maps. I don't just have maps, I care for maps. Backpacks too, but that's another story. So, I whip out not one map, but three. One is the general area map. It shows all the groomed trails in the whole area. Number two is geared toward motorized, and number three is geared towards human powered.

So after showing him the snowparks, and the trails, and explaining the color codes so he can tell the trails apart, it comes out that he doesn't have a snopark permit anyway.........

I offered to let the guy keep map #3. He refused that too. Can you imagine someone NOT wanting a map? Huh?

All the time I just keep smiling and refused to be brought into an argument with the guy. Just keep smiling and proving him wrong. Just keep smiling and proving him wrong while I was in the right.

That's the point here. I was in the right. I was in bounds. I was informed. I was equipped with tools to prove it. And I didn't act like an azz or cuss the guy out or make him feel stupid.

Is the guy going to run out and buy a sled? Doubt it. Does he get a chubby from the smell of 2stroke smoke? Probably not. But I'll bet he will at least educate himself enough to not look like an idiot infront of his friends again. Heck, who knows he might even run out and buy a snopark permit........

B

and maybe a Map!

Bagger · Jan 31, 2008

xrated said:
Bagged, good on you. I'm wondering what the other guy who wasn't a putz did during that deal?

X,
It was really pretty funny, cause I'm dead certain that he wanted to hop on my sled and take it for a spin!

I'll bet his buddy would have made him walk home.
B

phatty · Jan 31, 2008

Bagger said:
X,
It was really pretty funny, cause I'm dead certain that he wanted to hop on my sled and take it for a spin! I'll bet his buddy would have made him walk home.
B

thats a great story bagger!

I alway offer skiers a lift to the top. 9/10 will take me up on it, and when i drop them off, they say, man this makes it easy to get to the fresh stuff...

there is a ton of heli-skiing in utah. Alot of the areas we ride they heli ski. We kind of have a un written rule of which slopes are skiers, and which ones are sledders... but with more and more sledders forced into smaller areas, its just a recipe for disaster...

Ace Freely · Feb 1, 2008

Bagger said:
Now, I should probably mention here that I'm a map guy. I mean I have a thing for maps. I don't just have maps, I care for maps. B

.....bagger, quite possibly the funniest thing I have read on here for a while!!!!

Thanks for keeping your cool, it makes all of us look good.

Ace

Wade · Feb 2, 2008

Had in interesting thought, at least to me.

If snowmobiling is important to you, then you shouldn't mind paying for access. You know groomed trails and parking lots.

If wilderness is so damn important to the greenies, then they shouldn't mind paying to patrol it and guard it. Just like it's not a citizens responsibility to pay for guards at the local Wal-Mart, it's not snowmobiler's responsibility to pay for protecting something non-snowmobiler's desire.

Bagger · Feb 3, 2008

Hahahahahahaha

Wade said:
Had in interesting thought, at least to me.

If snowmobiling is important to you, then you shouldn't mind paying for access. You know groomed trails and parking lots.

If wilderness is so damn important to the greenies, then they shouldn't mind paying to patrol it and guard it. Just like it's not a citizens responsibility to pay for guards at the local Wal-Mart, it's not snowmobiler's responsibility to pay for protecting something non-snowmobiler's desire.

Spot on Wade! Hahaha, I can hear the azzholes slam shut from here! If you could get something like that passed I'll bet it would get so quiet you could hear a spotted owl fart!

Maybe we could get a "special use permit" set up, so when a greenie want's to protect a million acres he pays the equitable value per acre. That's just what I have to do for the lot my cabin sets on.

If we use the same value they charge me lets see... that would be the value of the lot 36000 \ 20 years the term of the lease = 1800. So if we pay 1800 for each .25 acres that would make an acre 1800X4=7200X1,000,000=7,200,000,000!!!

ALSO, I'm required to maintain road access for the Forest Service to inspect the property, and I'm required to "REMOVE ALL COMBUSTABLE MATERIAL" from the lot to cut down on fire potential !

I'll bet if that went into affect the greenies would find another hobby pretty quick!

Good Call Wade!

Bagger

fuzz · Feb 4, 2008

Interesting discussion. We have heard it all before but still is good to hear people's opinions.
Couple of points I'd like to throw in.
First, "illegal" riding in wilderness STUDY areas? That's what they are supposed to be, ie Study areas, where things are supposed to be status quo until acted upon by Congress. Congress is the only body that can designate Wilderness. But some of the FS a-holes like the District Super we have here in Region One decides that these study areas (and others) are to be non-motorized, therefore "de-facto" wilderness. No justification and against the "users" wishes, but it's what the local Wilderness Association wants so that is "the law". So we would be illegally riding in areas illegally closed by the FS? How does that make us lawbreakers and them not? In a "study area" in the Little Belts, in 30 years of riding I have never seen a snowshoe or ski track (its 20 miles from the highway).

Second, these riders that are "trespassing" on sacred ground. They could just be dumasses that don't care but I will bet that most of them do not belong to any organization or club to help support our sport or be informed. Not to justify what they are doing but just to emphasize that the majority of riders are not joiners. For example, when the comment periods were open, how many of them commented? Can you imagine that if every member of this forum wrote a letter, would 20,000 plus comments be recognized?

One more point, if greenies want to have their "quiet" experience, why don't they use the millions of acres of Congressionally designated Wilderness area across the road? (ie, the Rocky Mountain Front). We cannot use their closed areas but they still can intrude on our riding areas. For every acre of non- motorized there should be an equal amount of motorized-ONLY, no ground pounders. As it is now, the so-called motorized areas are actually "multiple use" (which it all should be.)

When the FS officials are on the side of the treehuggers, and many of them are, how can you get an impartial idea on how to equitably manage the forest for use by the general public. The FS hasn't "managed" the forest for 40 years so why would they start now? It is easier to just close it and threaten us with fines for using "our" public lands.

Fuzz
GFSC, TSA, BRC, MSA, SAWS, CBU, NRA

student driver · Feb 4, 2008

I think that riding in closed areas does far more damage to our cause than it will ever help.
Also, as someone on page 1 stated, a total bombardment of letters, phone calls, and E-Mails to the propper people will do more good than anything.

And Join SAWS.
Get the E-Mails, then send the letters

Bagger · Feb 5, 2008

Driver,
Thanks for standing up and being counted. That's a very nice thing you are doing with the shirts.

I agree that the folks riding OOB are piszing in everyone's punch bowl. To me, they aren't sledder's, they are just tresspassers. Somehow they have come to see themselves as some kinda' Jesse James character that should be looked up to and admired.

Jesse James was nothing but a crook. And riders that are OOB are just criminals too.

I've never read a law yet that had a disclaimer like "this rule will be strickly enforced , unless of course the offender just doesn't think the law is right, in which case it may be disreguarded".

Bagger

student driver · Feb 6, 2008

Thanks Bagger,

Being a very little guy in the business and suffering growing pains, it's the one way that I can afford to give a little back while still building the business to be able to support the family year round, rather than just in the winter.

JHG · Feb 6, 2008

Not all areas are closed just because the skiers and snowshoers want the land for themselves. There is a a large area of Kings Hill in Montana closed because the water source for the nearby town runs through there. The people of the town don't really want oil in their drinking water that largely comes from run-off. I'm not saying all land closures are for this type of reason but sometimes you have to just trust that maybe there's a greater reason for a closure.

phatty · Feb 6, 2008

BigHoe said:
Not all areas are closed just because the skiers and snowshoers want the land for themselves. There is a a large area of Kings Hill in Montana closed because the water source for the nearby town runs through there. The people of the town don't really want oil in their drinking water that largely comes from run-off. I'm not saying all land closures are for this type of reason but sometimes you have to just trust that maybe there's a greater reason for a closure.

salt lake city's water comes from big and little cottonwood canyons, which are closed to sleds for the same watershed rules. funny how they can pack in millions of skiers who pee, dump beer, and leave trash all over all winter long. Not to mention the groomers and snowmobiles going non stop on the resorts all winter long. guess those must not affect the watershed...
the watershed excuse is complete BS... The EPA has mandated all sorts of strict filtering and treatments to go on water before its consumable anyways... hence the treatment plants before it comes from the stream to your sink...

Steamboat-RN · Feb 6, 2008

phatty said:
salt lake city's water comes from big and little cottonwood canyons, which are closed to sleds for the same watershed rules. funny how they can pack in millions of skiers who pee, dump beer, and leave trash all over all winter long. Not to mention the groomers and snowmobiles going non stop on the resorts all winter long. guess those must not affect the watershed...
the watershed excuse is complete BS... The EPA has mandated all sorts of strict filtering and treatments to go on water before its consumable anyways... hence the treatment plants before it comes from the stream to your sink...

That might be true if everybody got their water from a municipal source. Many get water from wells and the run-off does perk through. All field irrigation is from streams, rivers and wells. All subject to ground water contamination. So the contaminants make it into the food chain. Seen any DDT lately? This is one of the biggest arguments that the enviro-nazis use and it is hard to counter. Urine, beer (sorta the same thing), and trash are not as harmful as hydrocarbons.
Sad thing is that the majority of hydrocarbons that end up in the western states snowpack come from China. Millions of tons a year. Let the greenies go over there and tell them to clean up their act.

SnowSnob · Feb 6, 2008

Great discussion and I have to side with Phatty and Wade on this.

I get so pissed off when you see all these "ground pounders" using OUR trails that we pay for and they get pissed that we're on it???
Then they get that area closed off and where do you find them the following year...on the Gawd Dam snowmo trail again getting pissed that were on it...again. There not gonna be happy until were gone.

Personally I think the best way to stop PART of the closures is keep the ground pounders OUT!
It only seems fair to have Motorized Only areas but what does far have to do with OHV's???

All this millions of acers of Wilderness and no one uses it. I think MT is like 75% Wilderness now, if they make it any more then'll I'll be out there using it.

student driver · Feb 6, 2008

Hey Phatty,

I've held off on commenting on a couple of your posts because I had to stop and think about it some.
You do bring up some good points.

I think I'd not go into the closed off areas, for now.
It's better to handle it in legal ways, rather than to get our selves in trouble.
You are right, they are trying to close us out entirely and we do need to fight.
But we need to fight smart so that they can not use our actions to further shut us out more than they are now.

You are also right though in that there will probably be a time when the line in the sand needs to be drawn.
I think that time is coming sooner, rather than later.
But I also think that there are better ways of doing this to get the right outcome.
For now.

I know that there have been times that the methods you described have worked, but I also know that more often than not in our recent history, it's not worked out so well.

Don't get me wrong, I do have a ton of respect for you and I know that you are my friend, I just think that we can still do this with out getting our selves into trouble and adding to the problem.
For now.

Just my 2 cents

phatty · Feb 7, 2008

student driver said:
Hey Phatty,

I've held off on commenting on a couple of your posts because I had to stop and think about it some.
You do bring up some good points.

I think I'd not go into the closed off areas, for now.
It's better to handle it in legal ways, rather than to get our selves in trouble.
You are right, they are trying to close us out entirely and we do need to fight.
But we need to fight smart so that they can not use our actions to further shut us out more than they are now.

You are also right though in that there will probably be a time when the line in the sand needs to be drawn.
I think that time is coming sooner, rather than later.
But I also think that there are better ways of doing this to get the right outcome.
For now.

I know that there have been times that the methods you described have worked, but I also know that more often than not in our recent history, it's not worked out so well.

Don't get me wrong, I do have a ton of respect for you and I know that you are my friend, I just think that we can still do this with out getting our selves into trouble and adding to the problem.
For now.

Just my 2 cents

dont worry bud, im still fighting the legal fight. I write my letters each week, and send info to everyone on my email list asking them to do the same.

I hope i havent given peeps the impression that i ride illegal areas. Im just putting up some feedback for thought provocation, and relating experiences i know about.

It irks me that i cant ride the cottonwood canyons under watershed, but groomers, and ski patrol on sleds are going non-stop all winter long...
if i win the lottery im going to buy out the ski resorts, close the lifts and make it a sledders playground...

Snowmobiling in Closed Areas

Well-known member

ACCOUNT CLOSED

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Similar threads