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They are not floating, its just how it looks, the bolt up from the bottom and the rubber is just wider around the outside. I do think they are too soft. The marks your seeing is when the mount compress from big hits.
Motor mounts
- Thread starter aksnopro
- Start date
They are not floating, its just how it looks, the bolt up from the bottom and the rubber is just wider around the outside. I do think they are too soft. The marks your seeing is when the mount compress from big hits.
That is what I was kinda hoping, lol. Got to look at mine when it thaws out.
I really think the motor mounts are a large part of the problem. I can press with both hands on my secondary downward and actually move the tcl and motor slightly. There is no way that I should be able to move the motor on its mounts by pressing on the secondary. I can see how the motor is flexing side to side twisting the tcl and bringing the clutch faces out of true when you are on and off the throttle. I would say the TCL is keeping the center to center distance correct, but the twisting action is at least part of the problem. The straps that have been made by white rad and rkt to hold the TCL down will stop the engine from down the severe twist under heavy load.
I just can't belive that all the problem is engine movement. On my old 1M the engine jumped around like a fish out of water yet had great belt life. I think that a lot of the problem comes from secondary clutch helix with only 2 rollers letting the clutch faces flex because they are only supported half way around every revolution.
That is why I think it is a lot of things all making a problem. Fix one or two, it may be tolerable. Fix it all, and it should be a pretty near perfect setup. TEAMs are two roller, but probably much higher quality.
Hell, let's make a list of known/suspected culprits, cut and paste/add as we go.
(In no order, some are repetitive.)
1 - Motor mounts soft
2 - Motor mounts loose
3 - TCL twist by motor lifting
4 - TCL bow by having loose MAG bushings/mounts
5 - Sticky primary
6 - Sticky secondary
7 - Crappy clutch tolerances
8 - Bad belts
9 - Jackshaft bend/wobble
10 - Harmonics/vibrations
11 - Poor venting
Hell, let's make a list of known/suspected culprits, cut and paste/add as we go.
(In no order, some are repetitive.)
1 - Motor mounts soft
2 - Motor mounts loose
3 - TCL twist by motor lifting
4 - TCL bow by having loose MAG bushings/mounts
5 - Sticky primary
6 - Sticky secondary
7 - Crappy clutch tolerances
8 - Bad belts
9 - Jackshaft bend/wobble
10 - Harmonics/vibrations
11 - Poor venting
--A relatively loose mounted engine and rigid mounted jackshaft -- old school setup that gave good belt life a lower temps
--Relatively loose mounted engine AND a relatively loose, moveable, TCL and radial bearing mounted jackshaft-- double trouble -- new school setup that runs way hot and blows belts
--Secondary radial misalignment under load could be caused by two things:
-engine torque rotating TCL-- thereby leveraging back the jackshaft mounted in radial bearings -- Kelsy original theory
-bending or bowing of radial bearing mounted jackshaft
-biggest contributor is probably the leveraged jackshaft with large diameter secondary
-and/or combination of the two
--ANY up or down movement of the front of the TCL that is bolted to the engine is going to cause leveraged radial misalignment of the secondary relative to the primary. That misalignment is magnified by the large diameter of the secondary clutch. --Radial misalignment when on the throttle(engine lifts) creating heat and radial misalignment off the throttle(engine drops down) possibly creating belt chatter. -- Add any other cause of misalignment due to "possible" engine torque bending TCL, etc.
--I think Kelsy first listed the leveraged, misaligned jackshaft idea -- just giving credit
--So, STOP leveraging/misaligning the jackshaft--disengage jackshaft from the TCL and BOLT it down -- let the engine float on the engine mounts. By installing more/higher duro motor mounts, you are basically working towards a rigid mounted jackshaft since they are connected but going the long way around and you increase chassis stress/vibration.
--Relatively loose mounted engine AND a relatively loose, moveable, TCL and radial bearing mounted jackshaft-- double trouble -- new school setup that runs way hot and blows belts
--Secondary radial misalignment under load could be caused by two things:
-engine torque rotating TCL-- thereby leveraging back the jackshaft mounted in radial bearings -- Kelsy original theory
-bending or bowing of radial bearing mounted jackshaft
-biggest contributor is probably the leveraged jackshaft with large diameter secondary
-and/or combination of the two
--ANY up or down movement of the front of the TCL that is bolted to the engine is going to cause leveraged radial misalignment of the secondary relative to the primary. That misalignment is magnified by the large diameter of the secondary clutch. --Radial misalignment when on the throttle(engine lifts) creating heat and radial misalignment off the throttle(engine drops down) possibly creating belt chatter. -- Add any other cause of misalignment due to "possible" engine torque bending TCL, etc.
--I think Kelsy first listed the leveraged, misaligned jackshaft idea -- just giving credit
--So, STOP leveraging/misaligning the jackshaft--disengage jackshaft from the TCL and BOLT it down -- let the engine float on the engine mounts. By installing more/higher duro motor mounts, you are basically working towards a rigid mounted jackshaft since they are connected but going the long way around and you increase chassis stress/vibration.
I just ratchet strapped my clutches, tight as I could go without cutting my hand on the strap lever. (Small one.) The clutches moved between .5 and 1mm closer together under tension. (Much less tension than is sees on the snow.) Take that for what it is, I think that it was coming from the jackshaft flexing and not the tcl bowing or mag sid engine moving forward.
I can lift up lightly on my primary and get it to move a lot. As written above, that instantly twists the tcl and runs clutches out of vertical alignment. Kelsey was more than likely right, I agree. His tests have proven results.
I also think that the jackshaft is flexing, casuing issues and maybe even bending, causing trouble with deflection/chatter. I am forcasting new jackshafts for all of us, that is the hot topic on HCS with the flatlanders and where they are going with it.
I have bunch of Firecat engine plates with bushings in them, I am going to chop one up pretty and make a Kelsey fix that looks factory, try that. Also need to check mounts for tightness. Found a missing bolt in my left footrest/brake shield.
Is shielding the brake to keep heat out of the belt or garbage out of the belt from the brake?
I can lift up lightly on my primary and get it to move a lot. As written above, that instantly twists the tcl and runs clutches out of vertical alignment. Kelsey was more than likely right, I agree. His tests have proven results.
I also think that the jackshaft is flexing, casuing issues and maybe even bending, causing trouble with deflection/chatter. I am forcasting new jackshafts for all of us, that is the hot topic on HCS with the flatlanders and where they are going with it.
I have bunch of Firecat engine plates with bushings in them, I am going to chop one up pretty and make a Kelsey fix that looks factory, try that. Also need to check mounts for tightness. Found a missing bolt in my left footrest/brake shield.
Is shielding the brake to keep heat out of the belt or garbage out of the belt from the brake?
What is the offset supposed to be on these sleds? I set it to what I orginally read (where it was when I got it also) but am wondering if it is right, as I get the belt squeel after a good climb when idling, which leads me to believe the belt is pushed against one of the sheaves. I don't think it is coming from the center shaft of the clutch, though it may be. The center shaft of my clutch looks like it has gotten warm.
I can lift up lightly on my primary and get it to move a lot. As written above, that instantly twists the tcl and runs clutches out of vertical alignment. Kelsey was more than likely right, I agree. His tests have proven results.
--So this means that there are two planes of secondary radial misalignment
-vertical misalignment due to twisting TCL when engine moves up
-horizontal misalignment due to engine moving up and causing leveraged, TCL mounted jackshaft to "rotate" around TCL mount
--ANY up OR down movement of front of TCL at engine causes an arcing rearward/forward movement of the TCL mounted jackshaft which
will in turn cause radial misalignment
--ANY movement of jackshaft WILL cause radial misalignment of the secondary clutch
--Jackshaft is being moved by TCL and pivoting at the chaincase bearing
--TCL is being moved by the engine and pivots at the TCL tunnel mount
--I personnally do not see a proper fix for a moving, TCL mounted jackshaft -- jackshaft needs to be rigid mounted to prevent radial misalignment
---Somebody tell CAT quick, before they make their material orders for 2013 sleds--
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--So this means that there are two planes of secondary radial misalignment
-vertical misalignment due to twisting TCL when engine moves up
-horizontal misalignment due to engine moving up and causing leveraged, TCL mounted jackshaft to "rotate" around TCL mount
--ANY up OR down movement of front of TCL at engine causes an arcing rearward/forward movement of the TCL mounted jackshaft which
will in turn cause radial misalignment
--ANY movement of jackshaft WILL cause radial misalignment of the secondary clutch
--Jackshaft is being moved by TCL and pivoting at the chaincase bearing
--TCL is being moved by the engine and pivots at the TCL tunnel mount
--I personnally do not see a proper fix for a moving, TCL mounted jackshaft -- jackshaft needs to be rigid mounted to prevent radial misalignment
---Somebody tell CAT quick, before they make their material orders for 2013 sleds--
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I cannot wrap my head around the horizontal misalignment. Buit if the front of the tcl moves up, it will also pull to the mag side as you say, as the engine is tied down, sort of. I didn' thtink of that, I was just thinking of the clutches twisting away from vertical alignment.
I need to pry the engine up, hold it there, and see how the offset looks compared to static.
I am wondering, as the RKT thread on this kinda died, if peoiple got it sorted out via straps/belt/whatever, or if they just gave up, or winter ended for them?
I need to pry the engine up, hold it there, and see how the offset looks compared to static.
I am wondering, as the RKT thread on this kinda died, if peoiple got it sorted out via straps/belt/whatever, or if they just gave up, or winter ended for them?
A
Mine squeeled a little the other day after a big climb.
My guess is a new jackshaft, and stiffer duro motor mounts for 13, we will see if the update ours?!?!?
Stop the engine from twisting as much with the motor mounts, then stop the flexing jackshaft which will let the tcl do its job without the jackshaft flexing under the loads its receiving. Stop that wobble, which would increase bushing wear and make it more likely to have a sticking clutch. Wobbling pulling uneven on the sheaves. Ould be why its sticking??
Im going to stick a stiff duro rubber washer under my motor mount. To seal that gap and see if it helps any. Till my stiffer duro motor mount comes in.
-Aksnopro
My guess is a new jackshaft, and stiffer duro motor mounts for 13, we will see if the update ours?!?!?
Stop the engine from twisting as much with the motor mounts, then stop the flexing jackshaft which will let the tcl do its job without the jackshaft flexing under the loads its receiving. Stop that wobble, which would increase bushing wear and make it more likely to have a sticking clutch. Wobbling pulling uneven on the sheaves. Ould be why its sticking??
Im going to stick a stiff duro rubber washer under my motor mount. To seal that gap and see if it helps any. Till my stiffer duro motor mount comes in.
-Aksnopro
Found the (one of the?) problems with mine.
Checked offset, it is easily 40 thou plus out to the mag side. I KNOW it was on 200 miles ago, I reset it after doing the jackshaft spacer update. SO I looked around, see what I found? Mag rear motor mount, big gap between aluminum on pto side and rubber mount and looks like the aluminum is eating the bushing on the mag side. My entire engine has moved over!
That would not only screw up the offset, but flex the tcl, doing who knows what to the jacksaft PTO bearing.
I have not pulled the pan and checked the motor mounts yet, they must be loose.
Checked offset, it is easily 40 thou plus out to the mag side. I KNOW it was on 200 miles ago, I reset it after doing the jackshaft spacer update. SO I looked around, see what I found? Mag rear motor mount, big gap between aluminum on pto side and rubber mount and looks like the aluminum is eating the bushing on the mag side. My entire engine has moved over!
That would not only screw up the offset, but flex the tcl, doing who knows what to the jacksaft PTO bearing.
I have not pulled the pan and checked the motor mounts yet, they must be loose.
I am lost. Motor mounts weren't tight enough, but not loose. Loosened the two fronts, the rear loosened but I could feel it trying to spin the rubber, must be loctite. Pried engine, it floats easy in the rear mag mount. Couldn't get the motor to move over. Pried on the bolt heads underneath even, no moving. I wacked the jackshaft to see if it would move over in the c-case, nothing. Only think left is the mounts moving on the engine plate? Which means pulling the engine if I am correct?
A
Gonna try an slap this in there where the gap is while im there check all motor mounts for being tight ect
With the motor flexing down n forward like the marks are showing when i bombhole or hit the front side of a lip with the throttle off the inertia of the motor going forward might be all thats pulling the clutches out of alignment. If it is the motor moving making the clack noise then that would explain why im having such worse then others when i land all that force going forward, and im pinned at the same time?
In order for that rubber to make a mark on the frame things are moving quite a bit on the mag side.
Or Maybe the noise were hearin is the chain getting jerked tite when the jackshaft flexes?
-Aksnopro
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The gap on the rear mag mount? Is that where you were meaning? So everyones is like that pic I posted?
A
The pic i posted is of the motor mount you can see right behind your can near your reeds/ front of the motor mag/recoil side i noticed that mark when i was changing out my grenaded recoil lol.(tether cought the pull rope and pulled it out when i jumped off kaboom)
-Aksnopro
-Aksnopro
OH, that's right. Does your rear mag upper look like mine, big gap?
C
Hey, thx for the experimental observations! Just for some further info, the amount of tension on the belt while running may not be as high as one would think. You may well be able to put more tension on the clutches using the strap. The motor is good for about 100 lb.ft of torque at max. Even if we take the belt being at 3" radius in the primary we're only talking about 400 lbs of tension.
Just food for thought.
On the plate flex - did you measure that or was it visible with the naked eye?
I didn't look at the plate, I figured .5mm in change wasn't going to be visible and it kinda shot my tcl bowing theary down, as you can just about get visible jackshaft flex by pulling on the secondary it by hand. I figured the flex was in the shaft.
This thing is making me more and more mad the further I go into it. I tore the secondary apart, the plastic ramps were flopping like the screws weren't tight. One was tight, one was stripped. The bolts were too long for the holes in the ramps! So one bottomed and was stripped at the factory, the other was bottomed and left there, both ramps loose. Had to find longer bolts and redrill for them.
Anyone know the torque spec for the helix bolts?
I think I now know how my offset got off.
Secondary placement is determined by chaincase and that update we did. (Dumb.)
So I moved my shaft and installed as directed. (Moved it towards the chaincase.) The tcl butts against hte shoulder in the shaft. SO I moved the shaft, which moved the tcl over towards the chaincase slightly. I had to add a shim to the secondary to get the clutch back in line with the other one. Now, the TCL was pulling on the engine towards the mag side, as I moved the tcl over with the update. With the rubber mounted engine, it must have worked it's way into it's new home as it was ridden, held there by the jackshaft/tcl. There is my 40 thou or whatever it is that my clutches are now out. (Which, I would bet, is the exact amount that I moved the jackshaft over in the first place with the update.) The directions for the update did not point this out, they actually said the opposite, to reset the clutch offset after the update. If I had left it alone, it woudl have fixed itself, as the TCL/engine/jackshaft are designed to stay in the same plane, regardless of where one is moved.
How many engines have moved over a bit after the update, after the clutches were aligned???? A huge amount of problems could be attributed to this, whiule we all thought our alignments were spot on!
Anyone know the torque spec for the helix bolts?
I think I now know how my offset got off.
Secondary placement is determined by chaincase and that update we did. (Dumb.)
So I moved my shaft and installed as directed. (Moved it towards the chaincase.) The tcl butts against hte shoulder in the shaft. SO I moved the shaft, which moved the tcl over towards the chaincase slightly. I had to add a shim to the secondary to get the clutch back in line with the other one. Now, the TCL was pulling on the engine towards the mag side, as I moved the tcl over with the update. With the rubber mounted engine, it must have worked it's way into it's new home as it was ridden, held there by the jackshaft/tcl. There is my 40 thou or whatever it is that my clutches are now out. (Which, I would bet, is the exact amount that I moved the jackshaft over in the first place with the update.) The directions for the update did not point this out, they actually said the opposite, to reset the clutch offset after the update. If I had left it alone, it woudl have fixed itself, as the TCL/engine/jackshaft are designed to stay in the same plane, regardless of where one is moved.
How many engines have moved over a bit after the update, after the clutches were aligned???? A huge amount of problems could be attributed to this, whiule we all thought our alignments were spot on!
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