Does Cat Regret Building the ProClimb???

GoBigParts · Dec 25, 2013

Slednoggin23 said:
Just like the Cat the Pro RMK shares a lot of chassis design with the trail sleds. Its not a 100% mtn sled.

Or is their trail sled not 100% trail sled? I have looked at both of them with their hoods off next to each other. The bulkhead and bracing is about the same. The steering, a-arms, spindles, skis and what not are different. I'm not a 100% sure of all the differences but the ProRMK sure works well as a mtn sled. I would like to spend more time on the Proclimb to get a feel for it.

Slednoggin23 · Dec 25, 2013

GoBigParts said:
Or is their trail sled not 100% trail sled? I have looked at both of them with their hoods off next to each other. The bulkhead and bracing is about the same. The steering, a-arms, spindles, skis and what not are different. I'm not a 100% sure of all the differences but the ProRMK sure works well as a mtn sled. I would like to spend more time on the Proclimb to get a feel for it.

You could say the same for the Cat. I have also looked at both side by side and the heart of both sleds are the same (bulkhead).The steering and skis I agree are mtn specific but Cat adds mtn specific stuff too. Light weight sure has a way of making a sled superior. But at what cost? Weak and glued components? No thanks. A low HP unreliable engine? No thanks. Pro RMK's blow belts too. But a blown belt wont end your blue bird day in 2 ft. of fresh like a blown motor will. I know two guys that ride Pro RMK's that carry a set of pistons with them riding because they don't trust them.

I don't think Cat regrets building the Proclimb. They might regret releasing it before it was ready. They will survive just like Polaris did with the disasters they've had lately (900's 800's). At least they have made improvement and not totally dropped the whole project. They both have issues and are both capable trail based mtn machines.:face-icon-small-win.

There are Polaris fans and Arctic Cat fans. If Polaris comes out with a higher HP reliable 800 engine and Cat comes out with a cleaner burning 800 they'll both thrive. The poo poo just thrives a bit more right now but that will change after this year.:face-icon-small-hap The 2014 Proclimb rocks. Ive rode all three '14's and I think both Cat and Doo are way better than the Pro RMK.

troyby · Dec 25, 2013

He he

Slednoggin23 said:
You could say the same for the Cat. I have also looked at both side by side and the heart of both sleds are the same (bulkhead).The steering and skis I agree are mtn specific but Cat adds mtn specific stuff too. Light weight sure has a way of making a sled superior. But at what cost? Weak and glued components? No thanks. A low HP unreliable engine? No thanks. Pro RMK's blow belts too. But a blown belt wont end your blue bird day in 2 ft. of fresh like a blown motor will. I know two guys that ride Pro RMK's that carry a set of pistons with them riding because they don't trust them.

I don't think Cat regrets building the Proclimb. They might regret releasing it before it was ready. They will survive just like Polaris did with the disasters they've had lately (900's 800's). At least they have made improvement and not totally dropped the whole project. They both have issues and are both capable trail based mtn machines.:face-icon-small-win.

There are Polaris fans and Arctic Cat fans. If Polaris comes out with a higher HP reliable 800 engine and Cat comes out with a cleaner burning 800 they'll both thrive. The poo poo just thrives a bit more right now but that will change after this year.:face-icon-small-hap The 2014 Proclimb rocks. Ive rode all three '14's and I think both Cat and Doo are way better than the Pro RMK.

If you can post this garbage 3 times in a row, and put it in all CAPS, you might actually get someone to believe it.

arctic2009 · Dec 25, 2013

troyby said:
If you can post this garbage 3 times in a row, and put it in all CAPS, you might actually get someone to believe it.

Great.. another know it all poo guy.. don't you guys have sleds to be flicking??

JSun · Dec 26, 2013

MBMS said:
Back to the original topic. What Cat does or should regret is the execution and build of all the F4 chassis product in 2012. This includes Procross and Proclimb products. This was their chance to gain tremendous market share in all segments. And they did just that for one year. They sold a lot of sleds and while there is debate as to some were good and some were bad...the truth of the matter IMO is those that were ridden hard had lots of problems. There were significant design issues and the build quality may have set an all time low standard. The poor quality of the components multiplied the problems significantly. The following year sales were weak and many riders jumped ship. Those watching to see what the 12s did...well we know they didn't buy Cat's in 2013. Sell a ton of a new model and it turns out great is real good. Sell a ton of a new model and has tons of problem is real bad. Cat is recovering from their mistakes and hopefully will never let something like this happen again. Sure the performance of the sled has gotten better and better but it was the dependability issues hurting the brand more than it did not float or flick as good as an RMK.

I was working a consumer show for the 2012 models and the Cat and Polaris booths were about evenly crowded (Ski Doo did not participate in these shows) In 2013 we saw a packed Polaris booth and very modest interest in the Cat booth. I like to look at the cup as half full and said to the Cat guys... it's not that bad...look at Polaris if they can recover from the Dragon fiasco we should be ok. 2014 show had Cat, Polaris, Ski Doo in attendance and the interest was good for all three. Yamaha was very lonely all three years

I remember talking to a very reputable performance company who does much for both Polaris and Arctic Cat sleds and was telling the rep how bad our belt situation was. He laughed and said the Cat issues could never compare with the Polaris 900 and Dragon nightmare.

I hope 2014 will see all three brands do well on the hill and make their riders happy. I expect even better stuff from Cat next year...not just BNG for sure.

Woody

This is EXACTLY what I was trying to get at with my original post. Well said. In the end, my opinion is that Cat should have waited until the 2013 model year to release the ProClimb. They shouldn't have rushed the sled to market just because it was their 50th... They are paying for it. That's why I think they regret when the ProClimb was released (looking back, that should have been how I asked the question...). Flat out, it wasn't ready.

I would be on a Cat instead of my Pro had they simply cut a little weight on the M8 for 2012 and introduced the ProCross chassis on the trail sleds.

I had a 2012 ProClimb SNOWCHECKED. It was the white LE. August rolled around and I heard they were coming in heavier than the 2011 M, I cancelled it and went and bought a Pro.

Did I mention I really like the 2014 M? I do. If I was buying this year it would have been near the top of my list.

Joe

stingray719 · Dec 26, 2013

troyby said:
If you can post this garbage 3 times in a row, and put it in all CAPS, you might actually get someone to believe it.

What part wasn't believable? The part where Pros are glued together or the part where some Poo guys use 3 motors a seaon? How much proof would you like for both? But hey, Obama was relected so that is proof some people believe anything without doing research......:face-icon-small-win

0neoldfart · Dec 26, 2013

2012...

No denying the 2012 Proclimb had issues. They lost a bunch of market share in 2013, and I'm sure in 2014 as a result. Personally, I own two 2013's - an M1100T Ltd, and a M800 Ltd. They have both been great sleds, with very little issues. We also have a 2013 Pro RMK, and it's been a good sled, too. Contrary to what you read in the magazines, there is no "BEST" sled for everyone, and it really comes down to rider preference, and a good dealer. I've been riding in the mountains before mountain sleds existed, and I've seen the evolution of mountain sleds over the years. They are ALL capable of allowing a newbie rider go places in the backcountry (without survival skill or equipment) that they've no place being, and for the most part, returning them back to the trailhead. Hell, there are people riding these sleds that have no idea how to change a set of fouled plugs or a drive belt, but they watched a "slednecks" video and are determined they will be the next big thing. Marketing is a huge player in this industry, and if a manufacturer is willing to sponsor a rider who is at the top of his game, there will be paybacks tenfold, as there is a bunch of people who will follow the pro's "choice" lol.
I might ad the obvious: All sleds have issues from time to time - and it doesn't matter which brand. Throwing a complete brand under the bus due to issues on one model year is ridiculous, as ALL manufacturers strive to make the next year's model better - it's how they sell sleds / cars / bikes / ATV's, etc - no one would buy a new model if there was no improvements. Frankly, EVERY manufacturer has had product quality issues over the years at one time or another.
So what is the BEST sled? Pick one, and learn to ride. What may be the best for one rider may not be the best for another, but frankly - the rider is the difference. Brand loyalty is somewhat ridiculous - most people defend their choice of ride as though they are on a full factory sponsorship...until their riding time is cut short due to a failure and backordered parts, or poor dealer service.

Slednoggin23 · Dec 26, 2013

stingray719 said:
What part wasn't believable? The part where Pros are glued together or the part where some Poo guys use 3 motors a seaon? How much proof would you like for both? But hey, Obama was relected so that is proof some people believe anything without doing research......:face-icon-small-win

Actually he is an Obama follower. Typical mindless sheep listening to Obama\Polaris. "Oh Obamacare\800 motors is the greatest thing since my second election\900 RMK!" They dismiss all facts and believe nothing is wrong. The Pro RMK is a outstanding sled and if the motors alone were better I would seriously consider owning one but after 5 yrs they still cant get a reliable 800cc motor to last long enough for me to consider it. Its been said the Cat motor is reliable because its "dirty". Not buying it because the Poo motor isn't cleaner that the 'Zuki 800.

aksnopro · Dec 27, 2013

poos motors got better
cats clutching got better
doos handing got better
yamahas are still fat

-Aksnopro

stingray719 · Dec 27, 2013

aksnopro said:
poos motors got better
cats clutching got better
doos handing got better
yamahas are still fat

-Aksnopro

Might want to rethink that comment........

JSun · Dec 27, 2013

I am seriously in love with the SR Viper XTX... Heck, it might even make me go 4-stroke for 2015 if they do this right...

Joe

geo · Dec 27, 2013

The '12 Cat's were not rushed to the showroom floor. They were the "most tested sled ever" according to Cat. There was that Pride thing.

Who did the testing? Years before the PC you could see a "change of guard" of the mountain crew. Their "huge" lol contracts were deemed redundant and all sled testing could be "blended".
Bottom line for Cat was simply production costs.

There is nothing wrong with the chassis. As pointed out before, if you but all three, stripped. side by side, you have to scratch your head to figure out the geometrical differences and wonder why they have such different personalities.
It's the "holes". 1/2" here and 3/4" there are the only differences. It wasn't copying, it was evolution Differences in the "holes" came from the testers. Mountain testing compared to "blended testing".

My'12 HCR was great sled "by the end". In some ways better than my '13 Pro. Most of those changes are in the '14's but not all (that's the sad part). The difference to me is after retorquing a couple of bolts and adding a clamp the Pro was trouble free with only "tweaks" during the season, not repairs.
Most trouble free season since my '06 M7 (a sled with "holes" from a great mountain team).

So, did people leave Cat because of the handling? IMO (and the reason I voted) It wasn`t the chassis and it definitely wasn`t the motor. IMO it was all the other cheap poorly thought out, untested in deep snow, overseas from the cheapest bidder parts around them.

Do you really remember 2012!? Black helicopters lol everywhere but not a word from Cat until you got your "super belt" and update kit that fit in a brown paper bag the following season. Fuel issues, belt issues, clutch issues, bearing issues, jackshaft issues, chain and gear issues, handling of a trail width front end issues, steering issues, coolant issues, oil injection issues, snow into the intake issues, snow into the clutches issues, snow into the steering issues, snow build up on the tunnel issues,,,,. Enough?
I mean really, it would only have taken one ride in deep powder (most tested sleds ever for Cat) to know you needed to change a couple of little things lol. My favourite was a fan on the clutch with a snow scoop on the hood to sift snow onto the primary at the correct rate to help with cooling. If you needed more cooling you just had to kick a bit of snow onto the brake disc lol or lay it over on the left side to let more snow in through the side panel.

"Truth in Advertising" and "Remember the Titans" lol. Do they still use the "fatter wallets" thing in their ads?
So before you talk smack to me about my Poo ('cause you really don't know what you are talking about and maybe I should go to my own "side) remember what we put up with in 2012. I still have a drawer full of green underwear that looks like s**t on me lol and had plenty of Cat's before that to compare to my Poo.

Lot's of people left Cat after 2012 but it wasn't because of the chassis. They built a great chassis and put the best motor ever in it. They just decorated it with junk and never once rode it in the mountains except to ride it to the nearest chalet from the parking lot to put a wine and lobster meal on the corporate card.
Cheaper than hiring back the people that put you on the top though, eh lol.

stingray719 · Dec 27, 2013

geo said:
The '12 Cat's were not rushed to the showroom floor. They were the "most tested sled ever" according to Cat. There was that Pride thing.

Who did the testing? Years before the PC you could see a "change of guard" of the mountain crew. Their "huge" lol contracts were deemed redundant and all sled testing could be "blended".
Bottom line for Cat was simply production costs.

There is nothing wrong with the chassis. As pointed out before, if you but all three, stripped. side by side, you have to scratch your head to figure out the geometrical differences and wonder why they have such different personalities.
It's the "holes". 1/2" here and 3/4" there are the only differences. It wasn't copying, it was evolution Differences in the "holes" came from the testers. Mountain testing compared to "blended testing".

My'12 HCR was great sled "by the end". In some ways better than my '13 Pro. Most of those changes are in the '14's but not all (that's the sad part). The difference to me is after retorquing a couple of bolts and adding a clamp the Pro was trouble free with only "tweaks" during the season, not repairs.
Most trouble free season since my '06 M7 (a sled with "holes" from a great mountain team).

So, did people leave Cat because of the handling? IMO (and the reason I voted) It wasn`t the chassis and it definitely wasn`t the motor. IMO it was all the other cheap poorly thought out, untested in deep snow, overseas from the cheapest bidder parts around them.

Do you really remember 2012!? Black helicopters lol everywhere but not a word from Cat until you got your "super belt" and update kit that fit in a brown paper bag the following season. Fuel issues, belt issues, clutch issues, bearing issues, jackshaft issues, chain and gear issues, handling of a trail width front end issues, steering issues, coolant issues, oil injection issues, snow into the intake issues, snow into the clutches issues, snow into the steering issues, snow build up on the tunnel issues,,,,. Enough?
I mean really, it would only have taken one ride in deep powder (most tested sleds ever for Cat) to know you needed to change a couple of little things lol. My favourite was a fan on the clutch with a snow scoop on the hood to sift snow onto the primary at the correct rate to help with cooling. If you needed more cooling you just had to kick a bit of snow onto the brake disc lol or lay it over on the left side to let more snow in through the side panel.

"Truth in Advertising" and "Remember the Titans" lol. Do they still use the "fatter wallets" thing in their ads?
So before you talk smack to me about my Poo ('cause you really don't know what you are talking about and maybe I should go to my own "side) remember what we put up with in 2012. I still have a drawer full of green underwear that looks like s**t on me lol and had plenty of Cat's before that to compare to my Poo.

Lot's of people left Cat after 2012 but it wasn't because of the chassis. They built a great chassis and put the best motor ever in it. They just decorated it with junk and never once rode it in the mountains except to ride it to the nearest chalet from the parking lot to put a wine and lobster meal on the corporate card.
Cheaper than hiring back the people that put you on the top though, eh lol.

Sorry about your 2012 (see my previous comment about buying first year sled) but I would not trade you my 2014 M8 ltd for two Polaris Pro and YES I have ridden a 2014 Pro. I feel so strongly about this sled that it seems I will be buying a 2014 Viper for the girlfriend this saturday if everything goes right. (2014 Viper is an Arctic Cat with Nytro engine)

Saying that, it is my personal belief that Yamaha helped Cat step up its quality in 2014 although I have no proof.

I have yet to see anybody that has rode over 30 miles on a 2014 M8 have the complaints I am seeing..............

Solby · Dec 27, 2013

geo said:
The '12 Cat's were not rushed to the showroom floor. They were the "most tested sled ever" according to Cat. There was that Pride thing.

Who did the testing? Years before the PC you could see a "change of guard" of the mountain crew. Their "huge" lol contracts were deemed redundant and all sled testing could be "blended".
Bottom line for Cat was simply production costs.

There is nothing wrong with the chassis. As pointed out before, if you but all three, stripped. side by side, you have to scratch your head to figure out the geometrical differences and wonder why they have such different personalities.
It's the "holes". 1/2" here and 3/4" there are the only differences. It wasn't copying, it was evolution Differences in the "holes" came from the testers. Mountain testing compared to "blended testing".

My'12 HCR was great sled "by the end". In some ways better than my '13 Pro. Most of those changes are in the '14's but not all (that's the sad part). The difference to me is after retorquing a couple of bolts and adding a clamp the Pro was trouble free with only "tweaks" during the season, not repairs.
Most trouble free season since my '06 M7 (a sled with "holes" from a great mountain team).

So, did people leave Cat because of the handling? IMO (and the reason I voted) It wasn`t the chassis and it definitely wasn`t the motor. IMO it was all the other cheap poorly thought out, untested in deep snow, overseas from the cheapest bidder parts around them.

Do you really remember 2012!? Black helicopters lol everywhere but not a word from Cat until you got your "super belt" and update kit that fit in a brown paper bag the following season. Fuel issues, belt issues, clutch issues, bearing issues, jackshaft issues, chain and gear issues, handling of a trail width front end issues, steering issues, coolant issues, oil injection issues, snow into the intake issues, snow into the clutches issues, snow into the steering issues, snow build up on the tunnel issues,,,,. Enough?
I mean really, it would only have taken one ride in deep powder (most tested sleds ever for Cat) to know you needed to change a couple of little things lol. My favourite was a fan on the clutch with a snow scoop on the hood to sift snow onto the primary at the correct rate to help with cooling. If you needed more cooling you just had to kick a bit of snow onto the brake disc lol or lay it over on the left side to let more snow in through the side panel.

"Truth in Advertising" and "Remember the Titans" lol. Do they still use the "fatter wallets" thing in their ads?
So before you talk smack to me about my Poo ('cause you really don't know what you are talking about and maybe I should go to my own "side) remember what we put up with in 2012. I still have a drawer full of green underwear that looks like s**t on me lol and had plenty of Cat's before that to compare to my Poo.

Lot's of people left Cat after 2012 but it wasn't because of the chassis. They built a great chassis and put the best motor ever in it. They just decorated it with junk and never once rode it in the mountains except to ride it to the nearest chalet from the parking lot to put a wine and lobster meal on the corporate card.
Cheaper than hiring back the people that put you on the top though, eh lol.

I agree whole heartedly with Geo. The first year was tough when I started blowing belts every 100-150 miles. Second year was much improved via gear down, sealing body work, 38" a-arms, steering angle, pps, etc.

It is scary if you take a cat and pro down to the chassis and look at how similar they really are. I think cat tried too hard to make a universal chassis. They were successful however, it took a lot of work to make a trail sled, mountain sled, 800, and 1100 4s all fit in one common chassis. This was a major accomplishment. IMO also the downfall because I think the PCM8 was overlooked by their engineers who were probably working very hard on 1100T and getting them ready for the 50th. They didn't get the messaged that we wanted a made-over 2011 for the mountains.

I jumped ship for 14 and my dad got a new proclimb limited. Does it look better, yes. Is it vastly improved over a 12, yes. He is very happy with it and as the season goes on hopefully I will have a good ideas of pros (literally) and cons of both.

On the basis of both sleds sitting in the shop and one ride I see these differences:
Weight- cat may be lighter for 14, but still feels a lot heavier than the pro
Plastics- the cat design needs to be more streamlined for deep snow and sidhilling
Skis - come on cat!
Tunnel/cooler- cat got this right, absolutely no snow buildup. pro has a lot

CO 2.0 · Dec 27, 2013

I had more fun last weekend on my '14 proclimb than I ever had on my Pro. Pro went through 2 motors in 1100 miles. I get 4X's the amount of miles out of the Suzuki 800 motors with more power to boot. Thus why I dropped the Pro and came back to Cat (after owning a '12 PC that I hated). The '14 PC is night and day over the '12 PC IMO.

Still took me a BDX front end, a team tied (stock secondary still sucks), skis, and narrowing it up to get it to where I need it, but it is what it is. Spent a bunch of $$$ on aftermarket Poo parts too, so it equals out in the end...

sketch96 · Dec 28, 2013

arctic2009 said:
The weight loss is from the crank. Cant believe everything you hear. You should read up before you make assumptions

http://www.snowgoer.com/snowmobile-news/qa-donn-eide-joel-hallstrom-on-arctic-cats-2014-engine/0821/

LOL! Funny! the guy who makes the statement that the 10pd weight saving is all from the crankshaft is telling me to read up before making assumptions!

I have read plenty about the motor and know that for the most part they have lightened the package thru alot more than just the crank! Time will tell if the 800 will be as reliable with a lighter crank, castings, cyls etc, but to shave a full 10pds from the COMPLETE package does not always mean reliable......look at the pro! lightest motor package of the 3 and it sucks for the most part. I had one that made 1400miles and lost a piston skirt and grenaded the bottom end. Thats why I have a cat now for 2014. (2 motors in 4 years...1 - 700 and 1 - 800)

I have wrenched on many sleds, bikes and race cars over the last 25 years and from experience (fully licensed technician and have built race motors for everything possible over the years) can tell you that any "brand new, first year design" anything is a gamble until it has been field tested by the end user (us!) for at least a year or two. The 600 wont be the same test as the 800. The polaris 600 is almost bullet proof but when you add more CC's it puts more stress on the motor, and the 800 polaris shows it.

Again JMHO, not making random assumptions, just telling it as I have seen it over and over again in my experience.

Bendy · Dec 28, 2013

WHAT????????

stingray719 said:
You do realize how it makes you sound comparing to previous year sleds right? Should I get rid of my 1966 Corvette because the 1953-1954 Corvette was junk? WAIT, a friend has a 1999 Polaris that gets stuck aytime he tries to follow us does that count?

Ride a 2014 so you can make an intelligent comparison....please.

.

No Proclimbs??? Have you watched Slednecks 15 or 16? Counter Balance? Oh... thats right, you haven't... or you'd see all the best riders running them! Guys like Bret Turcotte!

stingray719 · Jan 1, 2014

JSun said:
I am seriously in love with the SR Viper XTX... Heck, it might even make me go 4-stroke for 2015 if they do this right...

Joe

It is amazing, they did it right. Only things we need to do to ours is long track it and put narrow arms on. 4 stroke torque with Cat chassis is fun! Riding 2014 M8 and 2014 Viper on the same powder and trails and I cannot feel any weight diff although there is supposed to be 35 pounds more on Viper.

You guys that have not rode a proper set up 2014 need to!

.

arctic2009 · Jan 1, 2014

sketch96 said:
LOL! Funny! the guy who makes the statement that the 10pd weight saving is all from the crankshaft is telling me to read up before making assumptions!

I have read plenty about the motor and know that for the most part they have lightened the package thru alot more than just the crank! Time will tell if the 800 will be as reliable with a lighter crank, castings, cyls etc, but to shave a full 10pds from the COMPLETE package does not always mean reliable......look at the pro! lightest motor package of the 3 and it sucks for the most part. I had one that made 1400miles and lost a piston skirt and grenaded the bottom end. Thats why I have a cat now for 2014. (2 motors in 4 years...1 - 700 and 1 - 800)

I have wrenched on many sleds, bikes and race cars over the last 25 years and from experience (fully licensed technician and have built race motors for everything possible over the years) can tell you that any "brand new, first year design" anything is a gamble until it has been field tested by the end user (us!) for at least a year or two. The 600 wont be the same test as the 800. The polaris 600 is almost bullet proof but when you add more CC's it puts more stress on the motor, and the 800 polaris shows it.

Again JMHO, not making random assumptions, just telling it as I have seen it over and over again in my experience.

The most weight loss in one given spot is from the crank. I stated that later but you clearly didn't read it. I like all these guys who think they can do everything so much better than engineers.. If these guys are so smart why don't they work for cat And produce these superior products??? It would be great to have all these knowledgeable guys workig there! :face-icon-small-dis

Does Cat Regret Building the ProClimb???

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