2008 Dragon with Carls 860, new top end, now it won't start... HELP

Need some HELP - suggestions welcome on what to look at next.

Have an 08 Dragon with an 860 Carls in it. It was due for a new top end so I pulled the top end, put new Carls (Wiseco) pistons and rings in it along with new wristpin bearings and all gaskets of course. Reassembled everything, started it up, idles fine but I was getting a 7-blink code which is a cylinder fuel injector fault. Those injectors are not used at idle. Loaded it up on the trailer and took it in to the local Polaris dealer who hooked it up to digital wrench to figure out which injector was the issue, it read the pto side cylinder injector was at fault. Only other notable thing was the TPS was off a little, but it has always run fine.

So bring it home, chase the wiring / remove some electrical tape and rubberized moulding, hook up ohmmeter, and find there is an intermittent splice – the injectors had been changed out and spliced and the splice was a crappy job. Fixed it, measured with ohmmeter again, wiggled wires all around, no more intermittent connection. 12 ohms constant. So I figure it is fixed and ready to go.

So I put it back together again, start it up and now it acts like it is running on one cylinder, idled but boggy and would not pick up speed and then died. Realizing the injector wiring I just fixed was for the cylinder injector which does not affect idle... strange. One side of y-pipe was warmer than the other.

Now it will not restart at all. Good compression, nothing abnormal there. Here is what I have tried, one step at a time (I am giving summaries but the sled was basically attempted to be started at every stage):
- Spark plugs out and grounded – good sparks
- Put fuel into cylinders through plug holes, replace plugs - it fires right up and then dies when the fuel runs out.
- Fuel pump pressure tested – seemed low, so...
- replaced fuel pump with a loaner used one from friend.
- replaced fuel filter with new SPI filter
- checked fuel pressure – same as with the old pump
- checked fuel pressure on buddy’s well-running 800 Dragon – same pressure as the other two readings
Fuel system Conclusion – I do not believe it is a fuel / pressure issue, but the gauge may have been off as I was not getting 58PSI on any of these sleds

Electrical / ECU system:
- Ohm’d the stator – everything in specs
- Replaced the stator with another used one, which also ohm’d to service manual specs fine
- Replaced the voltage regulator with a known good voltage regulator (out of a good running sled)
- Replace the TBAP (temp / barometric sensor) with a known good one
- Unhooked all wiring to throttle control block to make sure there was no issue with the throttle switch / kill switch
- Took my Carls 860 ECU (they flash it to their own set of maps) to a friend’s who has a well-running 08 800 Dragon, unplugged his ECU, plugged mine in to his sled, and it started right up and idled and blipped the throttle, everything seemed fine, so my ECU should be good


So... what now? I really doubt the 2 crankcase fuel injectors would have both gone bad at once. I can take it in to the dealer (non-running) and see if they can read the last sets of codes that are stored, possibly it threw some codes when it was running crappy before it failed to start completely.

TPS a possible issue? Will it do this if TPS fails completely? Is there an easy way to tell if it is bad without taking it in to the dealer again?

sled_guy said:

I'm betting injectors, something to do with the splicing you had to do. I know you checked them, but that seems to be the logical place as that is where you were working.

I assume you got the green spacer washers in there where they belong too? That won't kill it completely though, it just makes it run weird.

You have access to a running 800 Dragon that you tried the ECU on... swap its injectors on to yours with the wiring harness and see if it runs.

Now for a question for you from me... I have the same 860, what clutching are you running and at what altitude?

Thanks,

sled_guy

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Sled_guy, I will look up the clutching specs when I get home, other than lighter weights I was running Carls recommended clutching for 5000-8000 ft (roughly). The green washers were not in the upper injectors when I pulled them out (and it ran fine before the new top end), I added them when I put it back together. I have red injectors which are fairly uncommon. Plus the injectors are essentially wired into the harness and the lower injectors are down under the engine, so no easy swap-out there. I worked on upper injector wiring not the lower, and the lower injectors are what it uses to start / idle...

Thanks for the ideas, any more for me?

NapaMatt said:

Also look at the Pins on the ECU.. Are any GReen.. and dirty..

Follow your injector wires.. to the ecu.. should be on left side of the connector top and bottom are injector wires..

you could ohm them out to see if ur wiring fixing didn't go so right..

Sounds like the injector isn't firing.. no fuel in cyl...

The ECU.. only knows there is HIGH Res. in the INJECTOR circuit.. it doesn't know where..

I am guessing its at the plug in to the ECU..

Click to expand...

I did ohm out the wires from the ECU connector to the lower injectors (one supply wire for both and 2 ground return wires) and got approx. 12 ohms steady no matter how much I jiggled wiring... the uppers are good now too (although even when the one upper wireing was not good, I had an easy starting sled and nice idle since the lowers are used for idle, just had a 7-blink check engine code).

Also I primed up the fuel pump before each attempt with 12 volts, and I also have powered up the electrical (without trying to start it) so that I could look for blink codes and there were none. Can I try to start the sled when the 12 volt is supplied into the plug which powers up the MFD and headlights? Or will that blow something?

All the wiring connections are bright and shiny with no hints of corrosion. (Since I purchased the sled it rides in an enclosed trailer.)

Any way to test voltage to the injectors while pulling it over? Or is that not measurable by the average joe with a volt/ohmmeter?

This is why I am thinking TPS? No experience with TPS, can it cause a non-start condition?

Thanks for the ideas guys, but I need some more...

NapaMatt said:

You can put Diode Lights on the injector wires to tell u if there getting a signal..

NO, You can not power up the sled and try to pull it over..

When you pull it over your gauge does light up right??

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When I put fuel into the spark plug holes and fire it up, yes, the gauge lights up but since it does not run long at all (runs out of gas in the cylinders) it does not get past the stage where all the lights light up (self-test mode?). When I supply 12 volts into the harness for lighting up the MFD and headlights, everything lights up normal, and there are no check engine light blinks or anything at that point (of course the sled is not running)...

Other than not starting all systems seem normal.

Brought my ECU in to the dealer today and they were nice enough to read the codes out of it for me and write them down. I assume they come out in chronological order but here is what they have written down. I should give them props for doing this kind of thing for me several times without charge trying to help me diagnose my issue - Kurts Polaris in Missoula.

Keep in mind the codes have never been cleared since I owned the sled (and before) so who knows what was left in there from prior malfunctions / owners (I know he blew up the sled before going 860 but then Carls reflashing the ECU should have cleared it I would think).

They have cleared the codes now so anything more put in there will definitely be from this go-around. These should be in order of newer to older but I don't know if that is how they get stored for sure or not.

1x P1611 Chassis relay primary circuit open
7x P1264 PTO cylinder port injector circuit / faulty stator
7x P1261 MAG cylinder port injector circuit / faulty stator
1x P0643 Sensor supply voltage low
1x P0562 Chassis voltage signal low
5x P0546 Exhaust temp sensor circuit voltage high
1x P0336 Crankshaft sensor 5X signal intermittent
10x P0335 Crankshaft sensor 5x signal missing
7x P0264 PTO Crankcase Injector Circuit / faulty stator
7x P0261 MAG Crankcase Injector Circuit / faulty stator
2x P0118 Engine temp sensor circuit voltage high

Wow. Well, I replaced the stator, and no difference (unless it was a faulty stator too, unlikely but it was used)...

I guess I need to try to start it one more time (maybe with fuel in cylinders) so I can register a new code in an ECU that has now been cleared out.

When it was last running / idling, and I had it in their shop and hooked up to digital wrench, it was giving the 7-blink code, which Digital Wrench read out as "P1264 PTO cylinder port injector circuit...", so that was the last active code (which would then be the stored code in the ECU) before I brought the sled home, repaired that circuit, restarted the sled which ran crappy and then soon did not run at all... So either the "P1611" code is my sled's problem, or that was a code generated by the sled they put my ECU into to read out the codes.

NapaMatt said:

I do believe that relay.. is up by the hood harness wires. The relay plugs in to the harness there and taped tight to the harness..

You can check the relay with a 9 volt battery and a DVOM.

That could be your main problem!

If that relay.. is not working . it's not sending volts to fuel injectors.

U can get the relay at a NAPA store.!

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Good idea on the 9 volt battery to check the relay, if that works. Better than a full 12 volts from an rv battery... I know where it is under the electronics cover taped to the harness. However, I had the understanding that the relay only delays sending power to the rest of the system until the voltage is up, reserving power for EFI / coils until the system is up to speed... if that is the case then the relay, even if bad, should not keep it from starting... unless I am thinking wrong...

NapaMatt said:

Yes..

I think that's the way the relay works..

But if the ECU.. Never sees that First Little Voltage.. "signal.."

I think it says NO Go.. No Volts.. No Fuel.. = No Start.. Only With Extra Fuel Added down Cyl.

Click to expand...

I will switch with a known-good relay instead, have 2 buddies with dragon 800s... hopefully tonight...

If this ends up being my problem I owe ya dinner...

Sled_guy, here are my clutching specs (finally):
Target / peak RPM: 8200-8300 (per Chris at Carls)
- Primary
5-8K bright green primary team spring
EPI belly buster 66 gram or Polaris 10-66 (Carls spec, I run 10-64 and/or 10-62 in spring riding and I still lose RPM on long climbs at about 7K elevation which is driving me nutz)
- Secondary
66/42 helix
Team black / purple spring
(Me: 1 delrin washer)

NapaMatt said:

Also.. if you have the air box.. off..
There is a Capacitor.. on the Tail light wiring.. Right in front of gas tank..
Double check that is also plugged in. or swap with know good part.
That will lead to a no start.

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Oh yeah, airbox is off,it looks kind of like the sled exploded as I don't want to put it together "right" until I am successful. Gas tank cover is loose (due to replacing the fuel pump with my buddy's spare which I will have to give back at some point), airbox is out (TBAP sensor hooked up and in a baggie to protect it), stator wiring draped across the top of the throttle bodies, electronics cover off, capacitor (which is normally on top of the voltage regulator but I had moved it for VR cooling) hooked up (yep, I tested it and it holds a charge too, although even if it does not it is not fatal to the engine start capability, proved that out on my buddy's running 08 Dragon)... extra voltage regulator laying on top of original voltage regulator and hooked up... I should post a picture...

So the capacitor on the 08 is on top of the voltage regulator, right? link:
http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73220

sled_guy said:

Could you have spliced the wires 180 off on the injectors... I mean spliced 1-2 2-1 instead of 1-1 2-2? That would potentially show ok on the voltage but cause the injector to pulse wrong.
I'm just throwing out shizzle at this point.
sled_guy

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I'll take any thrown shizzle at this point LOL. The lower injectors (used at idle) were not disturbed as far as wiring goes so no excuse for losing idle there... upper injectors, I only rewired the PTO side, and I wrote down the wire colors before cutting out the old splices and putting in new ones. They were slightly different colors on the injector I rewired than the harness, I don't recall exact colors tonight, but since the sled ran before, and I wrote down the colors and put them back the way they were, they should be good too. And (repeating myself I know, it is late) since the only injector I rewired isn't even used for idle... bleh. Time to quit and go to bed.

NapaMatt said:

Yes the "Normal" capacitor is on top on the VR..

But there is a second one..

On the Tail light wiring .. Taped on the wiring.. Same plug in as the one on top on the VR. 2 wire plug.. But Much smaller.. maybe 1" by 2.5 long..

O yes.. got to hear it run before u put every thing back on!

Click to expand...

I'll take a look for it tonight... and maybe snap a pic of the "exploded dragon" just for giggles...

EDIT: Relay in hand from friend's recently running sled. Heading home to try it after supper.

Question: Why would that capacitor make any difference in starting, if my friend can unplug the big capacitor on the electrical place and his sled still runs?

Chassis relay changed out, no difference...

I was able to borrow a chassis relay from my other Dragon friend in town, his sled was running until he went to put an SLP pipe on it, looked at his pistons through the exhaust port, and saw a crack in a piston... lucky him to catch it before it went kaboom... so he is awaiting a fix kit.

So I hooked it up tonight, primed up the fuel pump with 12 volts, pulled like 6 times, no hint of starting...

Since all the codes are cleared out now, would this pulling over give enough juice to the system to register anything? Or should I put some gas into the spark plug holes again to get it to fire for a couple seconds, then take the ECU or whole sled into the dealer to read out the code(s)?

Maybe I should haul it down to Carls in Boise. Only 400 miles or so away...

Adding some pictures for laughs. Although I might just :brokenheart:

go high fast said:

I dont want to hear from Chris that you were into the liquor cabinet this weekend.

We'll get it figured out!

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LOL... no, she keeps it locked recently... actually we don't even have one. There might be a nonalcoholic beer in the pantry (for cooking). :wine: :eyebrows:

Tonight I borrowed a main wiring harness from a friend who had a spare he took off his sled. Goes from hood harness plug back through to the fuel pump. Hooked it up to the hood harness, exh temp sensor, airbox sensor, voltage regulator, ECU, ground, fuel pump, ignition key... powered up fuel pump to make sure it is still primed. Pull, pull, pull, pull, wheeze (it is an 860), pull, pull, nothing.

Maybe my replacement stator (used) or the attached pickup coil(s) are bad... they were used... flywheel seemed fine when I had it off... nothing loose...