860 clutching thread

winter brew · Jan 2, 2010

What have you tried for clutch setups? What did you try that worked....didn't work....what would you like to see work better??
Please list as many details as possible:
Ramps, springs, pin weight, helix angle, gearing, track length/lug height, elevation, type of snow conditions ridden, who's 860, comp ratio etc...
I'm interested in peak RPM, maintaining that RPM in a variety of snow conditions, QUICK RPM recovery when on/off throttle while still loading the engine, quick to achieve a respectable climbing track speed....and maintain it.
I have a 163 SHR 860.....been trying alot of things, but always interested in picking brains of guys riding different areas and conditions to get a better "feel" for what is needed out there.
At this point I am not 100% satisfied with any of the clutching I have tried....but getting closer. Looking more like I will have to have some parts made to get what I want. The Engine itself runs strong, happy with that! :beer;

ghost rider · Jan 3, 2010

Best clutch setup for 860

Ask Byeatts he has an 860 that rips and just found a new setup that will pull your arms off and get to top speed fast and hold it over the top of the mountian.

giddyup · Jan 3, 2010

shr 860

leaving for the mountians for the first trip with the 860, gear is 19/45 also have the 21/49 have 412 ramps, putting the stock rollers back in use the 2mm on the low elevation, 160/320 stock seconday spring with shockwave. was going to email john about a pin weight recommedation, starting at 3500ft up to 7500ft have quick clicker sled is 163 stock track any recommends on the gear ratio, is there a benifit 211/49 any advice onit, first trip with the new 163 track and 860 sled was 08 154 and got streched out. anythoughts

giddyup

MontanaPowder · Jan 3, 2010

860 clutch setup

RKT 860 Jaws Twin pipes

Shockwave 34-56 straight, 2.5 turns out

160-320 primary, 441 ramps, quick click at 4 or 3 snow dependent

500 mains, custom 12.5 rkt head for twins

1288 degrees max to date on Koso at 7000 feet

8400 to 8500 on analog is sweet spot with twins.

Like the 441 but they launch off the bottom and in order to get to backshift feel there is a better overall upshift with better backshift. Mid to upper end of ramp is possibly too agressive? Just do not seem to backshift until clicker 4

Oh yeah one 10mm set screw.

Keep me posted on what you find brew. Overall quite happy with this setup, however has to be a better ramp setup.

Special ecm and building very good power with twins.

174 by 2.5 inch camo extreme.

byeatts · Jan 3, 2010

winter brew said:
What have you tried for clutch setups? What did you try that worked....didn't work....what would you like to see work better??
Please list as many details as possible:
Ramps, springs, pin weight, helix angle, gearing, track length/lug height, elevation, type of snow conditions ridden, who's 860, comp ratio etc...
I'm interested in peak RPM, maintaining that RPM in a variety of snow conditions, QUICK RPM recovery when on/off throttle while still loading the engine, quick to achieve a respectable climbing track speed....and maintain it.
I have a 163 SHR 860.....been trying alot of things, but always interested in picking brains of guys riding different areas and conditions to get a better "feel" for what is needed out there.
At this point I am not 100% satisfied with any of the clutching I have tried....but getting closer. Looking more like I will have to have some parts made to get what I want. The Engine itself runs strong, happy with that! :beer;

I have both a Trygstad 880 w/race crank and SHR 860 w/race crank. Both motors are similar in HP however the 860 is a better choice due the cast pistion,The 880 seems to have climbing EGT.s on long pulls and pistons will swell , need to be very careful to allow the Weisco suggested .066 piston clearance, and a totally different intake signal which requires much larger jets, The 880 ran 540 /.025 and SHR is 440/.010.I,ve tested an array of primary setups and the 417/160/320 w/toms light arms,12.5 gram oversized rollers.Total arm weight 65grams. This setup is revy off the bottom and works very well for quick throttle snap. Another new setup and suggestion from both Ghost Rider and Tom was the 433 ramp with my arm and roller setup.. 160/320 With toms heavy arms[45 grams]12.5 oversized rollers and 12 gram pin.Total arm weight 69 grams. is the best I,ve ever run. Hardpack to deep hill climb and rock solid 8100 and pulls your arm sockets however a bit less throttle snap and a better boon docking choice. Both setups @ 55 to 58 trackspeed just seconds after pinning the flipper. All these high torque BB,s really need to have the engine loaded. As a side note when I ran the 433,s the engine load and intake signal increased and plugs and Egt,s went rich,Had to drop two jet sizes and landed at 440/.010 .I have never seen a setup so consistant in varied conditions. All testing from 7500 to 10000ft.Will add the "1/2" crankshop clickers for next ride. AAaen pipe/can ,Ypipe,have both Engine tech 14:1 and RKT 14.7.,, 2.5 /156 Camo extreme.Koso Egt,s.Bob

portgrinder · Jan 3, 2010

09 XP. 860 Split Second, NPP can and airbox, stock pipe and reeds. 13.5 compression

Pin weight - the stock 1/2 inch set screw, plus another one that was about an inch.

Spring - took out 200/320 and put in a 130/290

Jets - 480s and 07 needles in mid position

Everything else in drivetrain is stock 09, except I put a 150x2.5x16 track on instead of the 146.

7900 or so on clicker 2

Works really well. A touch more backshift would be nice. Might have to look into some of these other helixes. When on a big pull and going over a roller, letting off not to flip over backwards it takes a touch longer than i would like to get back going again. Backshift is just how i like it for engine braking though.

giddyup · Jan 4, 2010

i know there are alot more BB out there
giddyup

Keithcat · Jan 5, 2010

Paul I just seen your post and thought I would reply. I spoke with you just before the holiday on the phone from 10500 feet on the Grand Mesa.

2009 RKT 860, 14.8 head with stock 163 track. 21/49 gearing.

I headed up the mountain with the following setup. Primary: 160/290 spring, stock 441 ramps, 14.0 grams of pin weight. Secondary: Shockwave set at 44.5 with stock spring. Results at 10500 feet. On the trail/lake with well setup snow. Pulled 8200 and felt very very strong. Letting off throttle and then going to WOT resulted in slow backshift but the torque from the engine on low RPMs seemend to be fine with it. Pulled RPMs back and again was impressive. ( clicker # 4 )

Going across lake flat ground with 18/20" of fresh ( slight setup on new snow ) untracked snow. From a idle to WOT. RPMs went right to 8100/8200 and holeshot was great. Quickly after that the it pulled down to 7700 RPMs and never could recover past 8000. This was a 1/4 mile run. Clicked up to # 5 and RPMs went to 8100

On the hill. 20" fresh with a good base steep climb. From a slow roll. 8100/8200 at first and then a quick dive to 7500/7600 and at the top of the hill it never went past 7700. ( clicker 5 )

While running this setup and on the hill I changed the shockwave from the orginal 44.5 setting to a shallow 25 all the way up to 55 and did NOT see any affect on the RPMs. This was rather odd.??? If there were changes, it was small and I did not see them. Only thing worth noting here was after the several runs with helix changes were black marks appearing on the primary. It must have been slipping the belt. But I could not feel it.

I then clicked up to 6 and re-ran a few times. I picked up a few rpms but nothing near what it needed.

Next setup. I removed all pin weight from primary ( 11.4 total after removing set screws. ). Set shockwave back to 44.5 and clicked back down to 4.

On the trail, WOT was 8300/8400 felt OK, but was not pulling any thing like the last setup.

On the lake with fresh 18/20" snow. 8300/8400 on holeshot and 8200/8300 all the way across the lake. Felt better here.

On the hill with the same snow conditions from a slow roll. 8300/8400 at start and then a fall off to 7900/8000 rpms.

Clicked up to 5 and re test. Same 8300/8400 on start with 8000/8100 finish.

Clicked up to 6 and tested again. Same 8300/8400 on start with 8200 all the way up the hill. However this just did not feel good. RPMs were there but just slow track speed. Felt lazy. Rpms would bounce all over with bumps and dips.

I was limited to changes as I did not have anything else to try but a new spring. Next was to install a 160/350 spring

Clicked back down to 4, same snow conditions. On lake with fresh snow. 8300/8400 start and finish 8200/8300

Next day it snowed an additional 24" on top of the 18-20" of freash. So results here were for the most part bottom less powder. Fine light fluffy snow on top with very light set-up snow under. It was the type of conditions that it you make a mistake boondocking, your stuck…LOL ( alot more powder in the trees )

Same set up as before, bottomless light powder. Flat ground, 8200/8300 and then 8100 at speed all they way across the lake.

On the hill, same start but 7900/8000 finish.

Click to 5. ( hill only )

Same start, but finish went to steady 8200. RPMs would only drop if I was jumping while climbing. Hard carving from speed would pull the rpms down to 8000 while in the turn but recover quickly.

Last adjustment was to back off helix to 43 and re-try. Hill only.

Same start and finish was again 8200. But jumping seemend to pull down less on the RPMs. ( trail on the ride back with hardpack was 8600 plus )

Overall, not happy with set-up. I feel there is A LOT more to be had. Hope this helps out Paul. When you have something ready to sell please get in touch with me.

Keith

pfi572 · Jan 5, 2010

Keithcat, do you have a 20 tooth top gear. I know that some people like the higher gearing and some lower.
I have the lower and it works better with the bigger tracks as long as you run the lower pin weights with flatter helix angles. Running the same 860 as well with a 2.5x 174 this year.
Cheap to try and you can decide.

Keithcat · Jan 5, 2010

I did think about installing the 20 top gear. However after speaking with Kelsey about gearing it appears that going to the 20 tooth gear with my current clutching would only make things worse. ( due to the 441 ramp )

But I did not try this and have a 20 tooth gear. Its funny but I was going to try a 22 top..................

Keith

byeatts · Jan 5, 2010

Keithcat said:
Paul I just seen your post and thought I would reply. I spoke with you just before the holiday on the phone from 10500 feet on the Grand Mesa.

2009 RKT 860, 14.8 head with stock 163 track. 21/49 gearing.

I headed up the mountain with the following setup. Primary: 160/290 spring, stock 441 ramps, 14.0 grams of pin weight. Secondary: Shockwave set at 44.5 with stock spring. Results at 10500 feet. On the trail/lake with well setup snow. Pulled 8200 and felt very very strong. Letting off throttle and then going to WOT resulted in slow backshift but the torque from the engine on low RPMs seemend to be fine with it. Pulled RPMs back and again was impressive. ( clicker # 4 )

Going across lake flat ground with 18/20" of fresh ( slight setup on new snow ) untracked snow. From a idle to WOT. RPMs went right to 8100/8200 and holeshot was great. Quickly after that the it pulled down to 7700 RPMs and never could recover past 8000. This was a 1/4 mile run. Clicked up to # 5 and RPMs went to 8100

On the hill. 20" fresh with a good base steep climb. From a slow roll. 8100/8200 at first and then a quick dive to 7500/7600 and at the top of the hill it never went past 7700. ( clicker 5 )

While running this setup and on the hill I changed the shockwave from the orginal 44.5 setting to a shallow 25 all the way up to 55 and did NOT see any affect on the RPMs. This was rather odd.??? If there were changes, it was small and I did not see them. Only thing worth noting here was after the several runs with helix changes were black marks appearing on the primary. It must have been slipping the belt. But I could not feel it.

I then clicked up to 6 and re-ran a few times. I picked up a few rpms but nothing near what it needed.

Next setup. I removed all pin weight from primary ( 11.4 total after removing set screws. ). Set shockwave back to 44.5 and clicked back down to 4.

On the trail, WOT was 8300/8400 felt OK, but was not pulling any thing like the last setup.

On the lake with fresh 18/20" snow. 8300/8400 on holeshot and 8200/8300 all the way across the lake. Felt better here.

On the hill with the same snow conditions from a slow roll. 8300/8400 at start and then a fall off to 7900/8000 rpms.

Clicked up to 5 and re test. Same 8300/8400 on start with 8000/8100 finish.

Clicked up to 6 and tested again. Same 8300/8400 on start with 8200 all the way up the hill. However this just did not feel good. RPMs were there but just slow track speed. Felt lazy. Rpms would bounce all over with bumps and dips.

I was limited to changes as I did not have anything else to try but a new spring. Next was to install a 160/350 spring

Clicked back down to 4, same snow conditions. On lake with fresh snow. 8300/8400 start and finish 8200/8300

Next day it snowed an additional 24" on top of the 18-20" of freash. So results here were for the most part bottom less powder. Fine light fluffy snow on top with very light set-up snow under. It was the type of conditions that it you make a mistake boondocking, your stuck…LOL ( alot more powder in the trees )

Same set up as before, bottomless light powder. Flat ground, 8200/8300 and then 8100 at speed all they way across the lake.

On the hill, same start but 7900/8000 finish.

Click to 5. ( hill only )

Same start, but finish went to steady 8200. RPMs would only drop if I was jumping while climbing. Hard carving from speed would pull the rpms down to 8000 while in the turn but recover quickly.

Last adjustment was to back off helix to 43 and re-try. Hill only.

Same start and finish was again 8200. But jumping seemend to pull down less on the RPMs. ( trail on the ride back with hardpack was 8600 plus )

Overall, not happy with set-up. I feel there is A LOT more to be had. Hope this helps out Paul. When you have something ready to sell please get in touch with me.

Keith

Whatever you do Don,t run the 433,s.Its so nice and peacefull all alone at the top!

tinman800 · Jan 6, 2010

Byeatts, What elevation and area do you ride? Do you have much time on this setup?

byeatts · Jan 6, 2010

tinman800 said:
Byeatts, What elevation and area do you ride? Do you have much time on this setup?

7500 to 10,000ft. Ran the 417,s for all last year and 5 days this year on the 433,s. The 433,s are solid and steeper ramp/more weight is a faster reacting setup which in turn maintains optimum Rpm,s.have run them on setup and powder boondocking conditions,hill climbs,they do load
the motor more which makes good use of the BB,s torque.This is the first setup which leaves me with the opinion "I,m Done with the clutching!"Cant get any better.

tinman800 · Jan 6, 2010

do you think the thundershift arms can be weighted to act like toms arms

byeatts · Jan 6, 2010

tinman800 said:
do you think the thundershift arms can be weighted to act like toms arms

Well I have a set, I will sell the to you!I ran them for two years

byeatts · Jan 6, 2010

tinman800 said:
do you think the thundershift arms can be weighted to act like toms arms

Thunder shift arms can be weighted to pull good and are close to toms arms untill you get to 50 mph, after that toms arms continue to pull and have a 10 mph higher overall speed,This is due to the straight design and unique leverage they apply,I did,nt believe it either till I ran the 417,s all last year and now the 433,s are flawless

winter brew · Jan 6, 2010

We have a few helix's and a variety of ramps ordered....will be doing more playing with the 860 this weekend. Thanks for the feedback and PM's on the subject :beer;

:beer; Keep them coming!

byeatts · Jan 6, 2010

winter brew said:
We have a few helix's and a variety of ramps ordered....will be doing more playing with the 860 this weekend. Thanks for the feedback and PM's on the subject :beer;:beer; Keep them coming!

I also have the new Tied secondary to run next week, Should be interesting!

winter brew · Jan 6, 2010

LOL....we have that setup to try as well, I need a longer winter to do everything on the list of chores. Call me wierd but I enjoy this stuff

byeatts · Jan 6, 2010

winter brew said:
LOL....we have that setup to try as well, I need a longer winter to do everything on the list of chores. Call me wierd but I enjoy this stuff

Thats half the fun "Tweakin!

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