Asking for riders' input about winter non-motorized areas (PART 3)

mountainhorse said:

If this is anything more than just posturing and hyper-inflation of SMALL or INFREQUENT intrusions into wilderness areas by excluded parties, which could be non intentional ... Then I invite you to provide that information which is verifiable.

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While the amount of incursions seem to be over inflated, the intentions by the ones riding in the wilderness are most definitely on purpose. It has been reported that a group of snowmobilers from Wenatchee are the ones to blame for most of these incursions. They know what they are doing and don't care. Everyone I ride with are very cognoscente of the wilderness boundaries and stay out of them. There is no need to ride wilderness.

mountainhorse said:

And what I mean by that is actual USFS reports or the name of a USFS official that will go on record to state that this WHOLESALE intrusion, YOU are claiming, exists.

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It does happen, it does exist. I have seen it first hand in some of the areas I ride in, and many here know about it's existence as well. Though the volume and amount of these incursions from comments made by the WMC seems to indicate that it happens all the time, all over the place, that seems to be unsubstantiated. Unfortunately, snowmobile tracks last till the next snowfall so determining the amount and frequency is difficult at best.

mountainhorse said:

Until you bring this information forward, please refrain from making these unsubstantiated claims, which I believe are, to coin a word, Veiled attempts to generate momentum for YOUR cause based on an inaccurate presentation.

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The presentation might be inaccurate by the amount of intrusion represented, but the intrusions DO happen. It is unfortunate and it is something that this snowmobiling community is taking VERY SERIOUSLY.

mountainhorse said:

I also support programs that are involved in the marking of Wilderness boundaries...Does WMC participate in or support any such programs?

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Good question..

Ruffryder... thank you for that clear and accurate presentation of the "few rotten apples" above.

quote WMC You are late to the discussion so there is a lot here that you have not read- maybe you should. Several of my friends have been with me on skitours on the Teanaway crest. Lately, we see no snowmobiles in the Voluntary Closure, but one day saw seven snowmobiles then in the Wilderness from our summit that day.

Just today I noticed statements from back in 2004 on the Forest Plan website that talk about the snowmobile Wilderness intrusion, consideration of non-motorized areas, other interesting comments and documents. Check it out here-

http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/wenatchee/forest-plan/

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I HAVE read what you quote above...

I see that YOU make claims.

Also... ONE day does not a "wholesale intrusion" make...

I have also read the 2004 report you quote... It does NOT mention the Wholesale intrusion you present... not does it indicate the rendering of terrain useless for skiers or other non-motor users or presence of snowmobiliers during their observation of TRACKS (the noise of snowmobiles you indicated)...

The report reflects more of what Ruffryder presents... "a few rotten apples"

The same group of "rotten apples" ... we (as responsible sledders) should work with the USFS to expose...and make that cooperation with the USFS and exposure public for all to see.

There is no need for people to break the law to enjoy snowmobiling and sled in areas that are available to non-motor users LEGALLY.

There is a need however for snowmobilers to continue to fight to retain lands they currently have access to and share them with multi-uses...

I do not condone NOR support the operation of motorized vehicles into Wilderness areas or other Designated "non-motorized" areas (whether voluntary or otherwise)

What I asked for ... you did not answer...

Please answer so that ALL involved in this discussion, both skier and snowmobiler alike can develop a more accurate, complete, picture and make their decisions, comments/recommendations based on this.

Thank you.

WMC

And when I say WMC in this post, I am referring to the user that has the user-name "WMC"...

I AM NOT referring to the Group "Wenatchee Mountains Coalition"

These are simple yes or no answers and I politely ask that you limit your response to "yes" or "no" to the entire set of 14 questions below.

Thank you.

1) Is the user connected to the user name "WMC" a distinct person?

2) Are Posts to this thread by the user connected to the user name "WMC", represented in these posts, made by more than one person?

3) Do you belong to any groups that ARE involved in elimination of snowmobile use on ALL public lands not including snowmobile access on public roads?

4) Are you a lawyer doing any Pro-Bono work for any environmental activist groups?

5) Are you a Lobbyist, paid or Pro-Bono, for any environmental activist groups?

6) Are you employed by the USFS?

7) Are you an official, non compensated, volunteer of the USFS?

8) Have you attended any Public Meeting with the USFS for the discussion of your proposal presented in this thread?

9) Are you compensated in any way, monitarily or by other non monitary means for presentation of this proposal of this "Non-motorized" area?

10) Are you employed by any lobby groups that are involved in the proposition or introduction of any legislation that would increase the size of non-motorized designated areas?

11)Does the "Wenatchee Mountains Coalition" conduct formal meetings?

12) Does "Wenatchee Mountains Coalition" have any formal membership roster?

13) Does "Wenatchee Mountains Coalition" have a board of directors?

14) Does "Wenatchee Mountains Coalition" represent more than 10 members ON RECORD?

In the photo you use, WMC, in some of your online presentations... I see an area that is tracked up, but one that I would immensely enjoy skinning into and dropping some sweet lines into in it's depicted state.

My ski touring companions agree with me. I sent them all an email with this very photo. I just called all 6 of them on the phone before posting this.

I TOO enjoy a pristine, untracked area... Who on skis, sled or other baccountry transport doesnt like that...Heck that is what we live for...

There is nothing like making a 1000 vert of graceful linked downhill "S turns" on my snowmobile or snowboard.... But I have to get up pretty early in the morning to get them... I AM willing to get up before dawn to get that.

WMC: We are sure that compared to snowmobile riders there are many many more Forest users who own at least some snowshoes or a pair of xc skis up to someone like me who has $10k worth of touring ski setups and other gear and $1000 snowmobiles.

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I do not contest that there are probably more snowshoes and XC rigs in peoples closets or even in use....

I have 4 sets of snowshoes (2 atlas, 2 MSR) 3 Ski touring rigs, 2 spiltboards (only one favorite) in my garage... I strap the shoes onto my snowmobile often and onto my ABS backpack when boarding/skiing.

I often tour / ride and leave the snowmobile at home... sometimes snow-camping.

Earning my turns is a great thing... There is as much athleticism in my snowmobiling as there is in skinning and touring... And I've toured with some pretty hard core Teli/Rondi/AT people in my life.

But lets limit this discussion about THIS area to the actual numbers of:

1) Skiers/snowboarders and other non motorized users of the area that is the topic of discussion in this thread here.

2) Snowmobilers and other motorized wintertime users of the area that is the topic of discussion in this thread here.

To come to a proper, Democratic, USFS management plan we will need to get this ACCURATE information out there.

I have not seen that in the 24 pages of the TAY thread or on any of these threads.

If I missed it, which is possible, please direct me to that information.

Thank you.

mountainhorse said:

I do not contest that there are probably more snowshoes and XC rigs in peoples closets or even in use....

But lets limit this discussion about THIS area to the actual numbers of:

1) Skiers/snowboarders and other non motorized users of the area that is the topic of discussion in this thread here.

2) Snowmobilers and other motorized wintertime users of the area that is the topic of discussion in this thread here.

To come to a proper, Democratic, USFS management plan we will need to get this ACCURATE information out there.

I have not seen that in the 24 pages of the TAY thread or on any of these threads.

If I missed it, which is possible, please direct me to that information.

Thank you.

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the numbers are muddy at best. generally they are statewide and don't identify sledders with ski/shoe equipment and certainly not able to filter it down to the area proposed, which is significant. they have also been drifting as you could expect by both sides to match the position.

mountainhorse
I do not contest that there are probably more snowshoes and XC rigs in peoples closets or even in use........

But lets limit this discussion about THIS area to the actual numbers of:

1) Skiers/snowb....

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Yammadog: the numbers are muddy at best. generally they are statewide and don't identify sledders with ski/shoe equipment and certainly not able to filter it down to the area proposed, which is significant. they have also been drifting as you could expect by both sides to match the position.

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Sounds like a proposal needs to be formally made to the USFS to ask them to study these numbers over the next season BEFORE any kind of recommendations for Policy can be made... in a public forum.

An unbiased determination can only be made by the USFS in a management plan that "promotes parity" if the numbers of users in the different groups are determined first...The users, and not just the vocal ones, should be represented accurately.

mountainhorse said:

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Might want to find this spot...see the nice drop lines on the ridge right in the middle? Sweetness on a pow day.....

RMK 2112 hit the nail on the head. WMC's thinly veiled attempt to elicit a derogatory response from the snowmobile community is laughable.

IMO...any further discourse with this person (or group...not sure which since he/she/they refuse to come out from behind the curtain) is only giving them the opportunity to gather more ammo against us.

I can see their report now, with quotes from this thread taken out of context to prove their point. And the message of "see, we have tried to engage the snomobile community and were met with animosity..." etc...etc...etc...

WMC, if you are not willing to actually engage in back ond forth conversation, rather than the monotonous monologue you have so far chosen, then maybe it's time to put an end to this facade.

winter brew said:

I believe WMC already said they would share Newtrouts ideas at their next meeting. ??


"Great, a real counter-proposal WMC will add your idea to the discussion when we are in meetings. WMC has its proposal, but does discuss other ideas in the meetings we have had."

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WMC is pleased to get some substantive counter-proposal and we will present those ideas in our meetings.

Please review the proposal and our previously stated views. Yes, we respect the fact that most here disagree. However, our views are based on experience, consideration of Forest management, and consideration of all Forest users including high-marking snowmobile riders. WMC is asking for a share of the Forest to use in winter without snowmobile riding on the same area.

WMC does not need to cut and paste anything here for later discussions with USFS. As we have mentioned, this thread and others are as far as we know are actively read by some folks in USFS. The Planning Team and others in USFS are gathering information about winter recreational use on the Forest.

USFS will produce a Draft for winter recreation planning that will solicit public comments.

If WMC and other Forest users convince USFS to provide designated winter non-motorized recreation areas, then similarly USFS would produce a plan that will undergo the usual processes of pubilc comment, appeals, EIS, etc. During the public comment and appeals process, SAWS, WSSA, and etc, will have an opportunity to $pend on lawyers etc. those funds raised to use in obstructing a legitimate lawful process of Federal land use management yet again. Historically, that has been a $peed bump that produces little for your benefit. Citizen involvement to help USFS manage public lands as directed by our Federal Gov't. would be most helpful.

In the meantime WMC has attempted to engage snowmobile riders in substantive and civil discussion. WMC encourages snowmobile riders and other users of the Forest to give meaningful and civil input to USFS about these issues.

Thank you.

WMC said:

During the public comment and appeals process, SAWS, WSSA, and etc, will have an opportunity to $pend on lawyers etc. those funds raised to use in obstructing a legitimate lawful process of Federal land use management yet again. Historically, that has been a $peed bump that produces little for your benefit. Citizen involvement to help USFS manage public lands as directed by our Federal Gov't. would be most helpful.

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This was learned from the environmental groups that file more lawsuits to block or force legislation than any other group. Seems a few years ago these groups had somehwhere well over 500 suits in action at once.....

In the meantime WMC has attempted to engage snowmobile riders in substantive and civil discussion. WMC encourages snowmobile riders and other users of the Forest to give meaningful and civil input to USFS about these issues.

Thank you.

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Engage by answering direct questions? I hardly think so....once you start answering then you might get more consideration of your point, until then, you have 100% of the forest available to you with over 40%+ designated as prime non-motorized, sorry you don't like sharing with us, we have no choice but to share with you and we are already excluded from atleast half....you'd do well to listen to your fellow TAY members that support the idea but think your plan is too far reaching and not well thought out with consideration of all involved. Engage in dialogue that includes us and let us know what those ideas are and only then will you get real dialogue.

WMC said:

During the public comment and appeals process, SAWS, WSSA, and etc, will have an opportunity to $pend on lawyers etc. those funds raised to use in obstructing a legitimate lawful process of Federal land use management yet again. Historically, that has been a $peed bump that produces little for your benefit. Citizen involvement to help USFS manage public lands as directed by our Federal Gov't. would be most helpful.

Click to expand...

This was learned from the environmental groups that file more lawsuits to block or force legislation than any other group. Seems a few years ago these groups had somehwhere well over 500 suits in action at once.....

In the meantime WMC has attempted to engage snowmobile riders in substantive and civil discussion. WMC encourages snowmobile riders and other users of the Forest to give meaningful and civil input to USFS about these issues.

Thank you.

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Engage by answering direct questions? I hardly think so....once you start answering then you might get more consideration of your point, until then, you have 100% of the forest available to you with over 40%+ designated as prime non-motorized, sorry you don't like sharing with us, we have no choice but to share with you and we are already excluded from atleast half....you'd do well to listen to your fellow TAY members that support the idea but think your plan is too far reaching and not well thought out with consideration of all involved. Engage in dialogue that includes us and let us know what those ideas are and only then will you get real dialogue.

sorry for the double post...might as reach the limit quick so we don't have to see WMC not answer questions.