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Are 4-Strokes Really Closing the Gap?

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Drifter

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Dec 16, 2007
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IMO they are not there yet. In till Yamaha comes out with a sled that can compete with the 800's out of the box then no. The plain and simple fact is the viper is way more money when you factor in the turbo then my Polaris and it needs that turbo to even have a shot with the new 800's.

I have to laugh that Yamaha thinks its so great to win the 700 class at Jackson what a joke. The class the no manufacture builds a machine for any more and they have a 400cc advantage.

Yamaha has the capability to come out with something ground breaking hopefully they do. If they ride the Viper chassis for the next 3 pluse seasons they might as well give up on building a mountain sled.
 
I
Nov 26, 2007
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Yamaha has a one liter bike engine that puts out 245hp naturally aspirated. They have all the resources to own the sled market, but not the desire. Sleds keep their dealers out of bankruptcy through the winter, that's it.
 
D
Nov 27, 2013
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Yamaha has a one liter bike engine that puts out 245hp naturally aspirated. They have all the resources to own the sled market, but not the desire. Sleds keep their dealers out of bankruptcy through the winter, that's it.

Big corporation only care about there bottom line. There share holders only care about there annual dividend. From a corporate and share holder stand point they probably don't see much growth in snowmobiles. Bottom line it's all about the Yen.

As far as dealer go they don't care much about them either regardless of brand.

DPG
 
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Jaynelson

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Nov 26, 2007
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BUT..
Yamaha has PROMISED US that we WILL be seeing new engines coming forth in the not to distant future.

And with a little bit of luck what we see being developed for their motorcycles may be a "hint" of the general direction they will go with the next generation of sled motors.
Thing is....we are also due for new engines from Cat and Polaris (2S obviously). One can only assume that they will improve on their current offerings.

If someone will only purchase a Yamaha, any improvements are great. But considering that other brands are not static in their development, it's a tougher sell to a person open to all brands. The longer they wait, the more impressive (whatever they come up with) will have to be. Not counting chickens, yada yada
 

turbo800

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Nov 27, 2007
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What's puzzling to me is yamaha is still produces 2stroke YZ250 dirt bikes perhaps because the demand is much greater in dirt bikes than in there snowmobile line of products...One thing is certain if Yamaha wanted to they could certainly build a wicked 2 stroke mountain sled. Consumer demand dictates everything. DPG

Funny you mention them. I'm a true BLUE bike rider, but the YZ250 engine hasn't changed since '99. The frame hasn't had an update since '05. People still buy them because they are still available. As much as I dislike the orange kool-aid, KTM has made great strides with their offerings and is the biggest leader in 2 strokes currently.
If Yamaha came out with a 300+cc 2 stroke, direct inject efi, and electric start with with a wide ratio transmission, I'd buy one TODAY!!
 
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capulin overdrive

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Apr 25, 2010
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Funny you mention them. I'm a true BLUE bike rider, but the YZ250 engine hasn't changed since '99. The frame hasn't had an update since '05. People still buy them because they are still available. As much as I dislike the orange kool-aid, KTM has made great strides with their offerings and is the biggest leader in 2 strokes currently.
If Yamaha came out with a 300+cc 2 stroke, direct inject efi, and electric start with with a wide ratio transmission, I'd buy one TODAY!!



Yup, KTM just keeps getting more and more HP out of their 2s 250. From 99 to now, is a big jump.
 
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capulin overdrive

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Apr 25, 2010
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IMO they are not there yet. In till Yamaha comes out with a sled that can compete with the 800's out of the box then no. The plain and simple fact is the viper is way more money when you factor in the turbo then my Polaris and it needs that turbo to even have a shot with the new 800's.

I have to laugh that Yamaha thinks its so great to win the 700 class at Jackson what a joke. The class the no manufacture builds a machine for any more and they have a 400cc advantage.

Yamaha has the capability to come out with something ground breaking hopefully they do. If they ride the Viper chassis for the next 3 pluse seasons they might as well give up on building a mountain sled.


How much is way more?


Good deals on both brands might equal to the full 2 grand more on new sleds? With snow check prices somebody came up with the turbo being a grand more on Yamacat vs Poo where they checked.
 
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Jaynelson

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Thing is, the turbo for 2 grand - just makes it competitive on the power front. Very arguable if it makes it competitive on all fronts....the majority would say no. It definitely does not make it superior, and does nothing to address anything besides power. Take a stock 2S + 2 grand and it's blatantly obviously which is still the superior sled for mountain riding. Again, it's only a good deal if you MUST buy a Yamaha....
 

christopher

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Thing is, the turbo for 2 grand - just makes it competitive on the power front.
Come on.
I think thats a little disingenuous.

A boosted 4-stroke is NOT "Just Competitive".
At elevation there is just NO comparison in power between the boosted 4 stroke and the unboosted 2 stroke. Thats not a fair match up at all.

And yes, I fully admit, the 4-Stroke MUST be boosted to even be in the game on the mountain. Which is all the more reason Yamaha needs to bite the bullet and start shipping the Viper FACTORY BOOSTED.


One of these should be included on every Mountain Viper :face-icon-small-hap:face-icon-small-hap
badge_ad_turbocharged.png
 
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Jaynelson

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Come on.
I think thats a little disingenuous.

A boosted 4-stroke is NOT "Just Competitive".
At elevation there is just NO comparison in power between the boosted 4 stroke and the unboosted 2 stroke. Thats not a fair match up at all.
a) I meant it "only" address the power issue...not that it "barely" addresses the power issue....to clarify that. I.E. weight, handling, engine braking, inability to roll-over, etc are all still notable outstanding issues regardless of the turbo kit.

b) Kinda using "boosted" as a catch-all there. Isn't that $2K turbo kit fairly modest in its boost and hp levels/capabilities? That's the impression I was under....maybe I'm wrong. If relatively modest, does it actually overcome the extra weight for the power/weight ratio to be comparable/superior to the 2S? Honest question....I don't know.

c) Even if it squeeks out a power advantage over a 2S....does that make it an overall better choice/package? Particularly if devoting said $2K to spend improving your 2S? Realistically more like a $2,500 to $3K difference....as there IS a $300-$500 MSRP premium for a Viper 162 (depending on model) vs a Pro 163...plus the turbo kit....plus you can't really ride one in the mountains safely without a rollover kit.
 
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christopher

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a) I meant it "only" address the power issue...not that it "barely" addresses the power issue....to clarify that. I.E. weight, handling, engine braking, inability to roll-over, etc are all still notable outstanding issues regardless of the turbo kit.

b) Kinda using "boosted" as a catch-all there. Isn't that $2K turbo kit fairly modest in its boost and hp levels/capabilities? That's the impression I was under....maybe I'm wrong. If relatively modest, does it actually overcome the extra weight for the power/weight ratio to be comparable/superior to the 2S? Honest question....I don't know.

c) Even if it squeeks out a power advantage over a 2S....does that make it an overall better choice/package? Particularly if devoting said $2K to spend improving your 2S? Realistically more like a $2,500 to $3K difference....as there IS a $300-$500 MSRP premium for a Viper 162 (depending on model) vs a Pro 163...plus the turbo kit....plus you can't really ride one in the mountains safely without a rollover kit.


SORRY!
My Bad.
Misunderstood what you were saying.

Yes, the 2K boost kit is pretty modest, I think they aim for 6lbs ?
But its not much work to run those numbers up higher if someone wanted to. The base kit is easily expandable if someone wants to run 10lbs without doing any engine mods.

Your honest question:
Does the added power OVERCOME the weight?
I don't think it does yet.
I think it makes a HUGE difference in leveling the playing field.
Without boost, you have a "heavy" 700cc equivalent sled.
With Boost you have a sled, with the right rider, that should be able to go toe to toe with the Pro or XM.

I think my experience last winter on the forum ride at Togwotee is very illustrative of what we are talking about.

My son (22yrs old) and I both ride boosted Nytros.
On the last forum ride his sled was down hard with a punctured heat exchanger, which for a Nytro required a major teardown of the whole sled.
So I got him a 2014 Ski-Do XM to ride for the weekend.

My Son suffers from a spinal condition called "Scheurman's Kyphosis" which causes a curvature of his spine. As a result at the end of along hard day of riding, he HURTS sometimes almost to the point of being debilitated the next day or two.

His comment at Togwotee after spending the day on the XM was that he "Hurt Less".

Not that he was suddenly able to do things and go places he couldn't on the boosted Nytro, but that it took less effort, which meant that his back hurt less.

And I think that is the real key on the total weight issue.

The right rider with the right body size and muscle makeup can make the 4-strokes do amazing things. But it requires MORE EFFORT. the lighter 2-stroke does the same thing, but requires LESS EFFORT to achieve it.
 
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stingray719

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Jan 22, 2008
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Thing is, the turbo for 2 grand - just makes it competitive on the power front. Very arguable if it makes it competitive on all fronts....the majority would say no. It definitely does not make it superior, and does nothing to address anything besides power. Take a stock 2S + 2 grand and it's blatantly obviously which is still the superior sled for mountain riding. Again, it's only a good deal if you MUST buy a Yamaha....


Gotta love the internet....where you can come here and give an expert opinion on something you obviously have not rode. I built a mountain Viper out of an XTX and had a ball watching the jaw dropping of nay sayers. Funniest is getting Poo guys to lift the Viper from the front, some make me take off a panel to see it really does have a Nytro engine in it.

Now, the Viper had a clutch issue from the factory with weights and springs that we made a fix for. Stock Nytro would edge it, clutch fixed Viper would pull 4 lengths on same Nytro. So if you rode one of the dogs I could understand your worry, but judging by your post you have not rode a Viper in my opinion.

Come back here end of next season and repeat your criticism's should be fun.





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viperback.jpg
 
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Jaynelson

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Nov 26, 2007
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Gotta love the internet....where you can come here and give an expert opinion on something you obviously have not rode. I built a mountain Viper out of an XTX and had a ball watching the jaw dropping of nay sayers. Funniest is getting Poo guys to lift the Viper from the front, some make me take off a panel to see it really does have a Nytro engine in it.
I rode with 2 guys this winter who did the same...they both said it was a handful in the type of terrain we ride around here....which can be pretty techy. It's another case of - what type of terrain you like to ride, and/or your experience/comfort level. If you are determined enough, you can make anything work. But I'm not going to pretend that my stock 2S is the best drag racer or hillclimber in the world any more than you need to pretend that your Viper is equal to a 2S for technical riding, jumping, and lightweightness (is that a word?) ;)

If my rides consisted of drag racing/hillclimbing to see how many "lengths" I could pull on my buddy's...I am confident that a FI 4S would be a great choice. But that's not really our bag.

Like I say....not a Yamaha hater, just keeping things on planet earth here. IF a 4S was as close to a 2S as in the bike world, plus Yamaha build quality...I'd be interested! It's not though.
 
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D
Nov 27, 2013
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Mountain States
I truly believe that Yamaha's 4 stroke without a turbo are a complete flop in the mountains against Poo, Cat & Doo "stock" mountain sleds....Add a turbo to the Yamaha and point it "straight" in any direction and the Yamaha competes above and beyond.

With that said if you believe mountain riding is all about "point & shot" than the Yamaha 4 stroke my very well be the ticket. However for most, mountain riding is very diverse and I believe that a "stock" 2 stroke mountain sleds without the high cost of a turbo shines best for very diverse mountain riding. Light Weight, Nimble With Low To Mid Range Torque = Excellent Mountain Sled. Thank You Poo, Cat & Doo For Delivering Just That.....Yamaha Can Deliver The Same However They Are Committed To Different Technology.

How cool would it be to ride a 410# 800 Triple Piped 163 Yamaha ? Good God Where Do I Sign.

DPG
 

fc8464

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Nov 18, 2010
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Gotta love the internet....where you can come here and give an expert opinion on something you obviously have not rode. I built a mountain Viper out of an XTX and had a ball watching the jaw dropping of nay sayers. Funniest is getting Poo guys to lift the Viper from the front, some make me take off a panel to see it really does have a Nytro engine in it.

Now, the Viper had a clutch issue from the factory with weights and springs that we made a fix for. Stock Nytro would edge it, clutch fixed Viper would pull 4 lengths on same Nytro. So if you rode one of the dogs I could understand your worry, but judging by your post you have not rode a Viper in my opinion.

Come back here end of next season and repeat your criticism's should be fun.





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I think you are mistaken. None of these guys would come on hear and give opions on how the Viper handles with out spending time on one. That would be silly.:face-icon-small-con
 
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Jaynelson

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Nov 26, 2007
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Please tell those of us with lots of M8 Proclimb seat time how it handles better than one of those....the chassis somehow gets better with a heavier, less powerful engine? :face-icon-small-con
 
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