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Asking for riders' input about winter non-motorized areas (PART 8)

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W

WMC

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Apr 27, 2010
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With that said, wilderness has been established by congress and certainly won't get reversed. But I think every other part needs to be looked at to be opened up to multiple use or individual purpose use for all groups. Additionally, the areas off limits to snowmobiling should be counted in the whole of the recreational options available to all citizens. Access to the wilderness for those non-motorized users needs to be looked at and addressed. We don't need to continue the debate over such a small area available to sledders, but expand it to access to all the EXISTING non-motorized available area for skiers etc.

...So WMC, where are the maps you are "working" on, and sledders that know the area in additon to newtrout speak up I need to chat with you.

WMC was done here and now yammadog wants to talk. OK, cool.

The maps promised by 3 different folks have not shown up. So I draw on USFS maps for meetings.

With all of the discussion here and at TAY, new ideas have actually led to three separate WMC Proposals. Potential collaboration and cooperation between the user groups will influence very much what is the advocacy focus from our view. It is better to try to understand each other and try to consider the other instead of all-or-nothing competition.

Thank you.
 
S
Nov 26, 2007
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Helena, MT
I try to live my life putting myself in others shoes. SO try and understand our point of view which is EVERY year we lose riding areas and it just keeps getting worse.
If the rolls were reversed and areas to cross country ski or snow shoe where getting banned you would be completely pissed. Every year you talk with the snowmobiliers who want you kicked out of 2 million acres so you COMPROMISE and settle for 1 million.....the next year they come after that 1 million acres so you COMPROMISE and give them 1/2 million....the next year they come after that last 1/2 million.

Can you possibly see where we are coming from?
It's not that we feel ALL public land in the US should be open for snowmobiles, I think most on here will agree that SOME Wilderness Areas is a good idea but everyone has a right to their hobby and deserve to have a place to do it in. We all have rights to the NF and it has started to turn into segragation...recreationally that is.
 
W

WMC

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Apr 27, 2010
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Good points. Thanks for taking the time to make a thoughtful comment!

I try to live my life putting myself in others shoes. SO try and understand our point of view which is EVERY year we lose riding areas and it just keeps getting worse.
If the rolls were reversed and areas to cross country ski or snow shoe where getting banned you would be completely pissed. Every year you talk with the snowmobiliers who want you kicked out of 2 million acres so you COMPROMISE and settle for 1 million.....the next year they come after that 1 million acres so you COMPROMISE and give them 1/2 million....the next year they come after that last 1/2 million.

Can you possibly see where we are coming from?
It's not that we feel ALL public land in the US should be open for snowmobiles, I think most on here will agree that SOME Wilderness Areas is a good idea but everyone has a right to their hobby and deserve to have a place to do it in. We all have rights to the NF and it has started to turn into segragation...recreationally that is.
 
Y
Nov 26, 2007
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check out this link, it's interactive for zooming etc. Lot's of green wilderness area, which really shows all the area that can't be ridden like I viewed from the airplane.

http://www.wilderness.net/mapFull.cfm

I'm still looking for something that also shows the restricted, non-wilderness designated areas that can't be ridden either. Something is out of balance here.

Tell me WMC, what's your view of this map and the parity of land use for the cascades? Perhaps you could use this to generate your proposed areas, maybe a screen print and then MS paint to generally draw in the lines.

Although, I think I remember you stating that access to and elimination of poaching to existing wilderness would satisfy your position, is my memory correct?
 

rmk2112

Well-known member
Premium Member
Nov 21, 2009
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Kennewick, WA
www.northstar-plumbing.com
...............The maps promised by 3 different folks have not shown up. So I draw on USFS maps for meetings..................

This is what I'm talking about, you can spew endless paragraphs of double talk and rhetoric, but you can't produce a map that shows us what your "real" agenda is. It's as easy as taking a picture of the map you draw on and posting it here.

.......http://www.wilderness.net/mapFull.cfm

Tell me WMC, what's your view of this map and the parity of land use for the cascades? Perhaps you could use this to generate your proposed areas, maybe a screen print and then MS paint to generally draw in the lines.........

My daughter (5th grade) could easily do what we are asking you to do and produce a simple map. Your pathetic excuses and stalling only tell me that there is a lot more to what you want than what you are saying....and a map would show it....otherwise, why not use "you're superior intellect" to produce even the most crude renditions of a map to show us.

I find it impossible to understand why you:

  • Can't produce information to support your position.
  • Won't produce information to support your position to those who request

We all have been more that patient with you. SHOW US WHAT YOU PROPOSE ON A MAP!! A proposal as serious and sweeping as you say yours is, cannot and will not be taken seriously until all your cards are on the table. Your lack of transparency shows your deceptive nature. Until then, you are just a annoying little voice in these threads that has no credibility.


EDIT: Let me make something perfectly clear! I am all in for discussion.......to share our common concerns.......to work with ALL winter enthusiasts. But that kind of open discussion is impossible with WMC. Both parties need to be open and forthcoming for any real discussions to happen.
 
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deepdiver

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2003
936
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Marysville, WA
Its pretty obvious: He is waiting for someone else to do it so he can copy and paste it like everything else.

Now Yamadawg..there are a ton of things that sledders can do to help sledding. I am sure most clubs will tell you that there are more things and work that needs to be done than there are volunteers to take care of. There are a lot of trail maps made by volunteers of Clubs and all the little orange diamond reflectors that have to be put up every year. Long story short we need to help out in our own backyard before any energies should be wasted trying to help other groups that have plenty of people and money.

Just take hiway 97 for example through Cle Elum to the Big Y near Peshastin. There are a lot of outlets at FS road ends that have NO room for snowmobiles and some with signs that say no snowmobiles...there are tons of areas for skiers. Rob...I skied since I was a small child growing up in Colarado it was just a way of life. I only quit after I was invited to snowmobile (a couple years later when the knees would not cooperate). I have skied a ton thru the Clockum to Blewitt pass area...there are all ready more skiable areas with no or extremely little snowmobile pressure that this whole concept is ludicrious. It isnt worth the energy to help sombody that already has a bigger toy box than you have.

Give me three good reasons why anybody should submit to the fraudluant tactics of these want it all organizations. WMC is completly in alignment with WWC and many others that want nothing more than to increase Wilderness more and more all the time. It is those same groups that want to shut down snowmobiling all together! Rondondee/WMC is trying to keep an area to himself that is right next to the wilderness only to make it so much easier to get there without working to hard.

Rob, Public land means Public acess...not personal acess. These splinter groups need no help...all you have to do is go to any of their web sites and see the money and time that they pour into thier agendas.....they have huge lobbyist groups...Just Look at the Sierra Club alone; unrestricted net worth has increased by more than $16 million. In 2000, the Club's total revenues were $73,941,700, and total expenses were $69,279,900. These fiscal year figures demonstrates their position as a vigilant self indulgent protector of the environment.

Then there are so many other groups working in parallel similar to WWC/WMC that it is scary. Before you talk about helping out the poor backwoods people like WMC please look at all the different organizations that are working against you and I! Here is just one example; http://www.westernresourceadvocates.org/media/pdf/wra_ar2006final.pdf They are headed our way my Friend. Just look at their corporate sponsors alone ( think about this before you buy your next HP product). The financial backing these groups have is huge..money is never ending for them including powerful law firms. They have the legal clout and ability to go to the supreme court if needed. There are many groups like this and wwc that have big and I mean millions of dollars big that are lobbying and filing legal lawsuits every day that will move your Ski-Doo and My Polaris right into the garbage dump.
The money that goes to the very few snowmobile groups is chump change in comparision. In fact WSSA has to downright beg for donantions to fight for our rights to ride on public land. Between the possible ORV rule to the Lynx exapanded off limits areas to the continued expansions of WA wilderness land the skiiers have tons of land and many more acres in the works.

Plese Rob and anybody else: Before we consider helping out the not so poor special interest groups we need to have a clean back yard. Lets help our own problems and if there is anything else left then and only then look at other insights. My analogy would be of a father that spens many hours helping other peoples children while yours are at home needing help with no one around because their Fathers focus was misaligned and when he come home his energy is exhausted and his own family is the one that gets hurt the most and ends up paying the price for all the years to come.

When is enough Wilderness enough? This Obamanation will aprove more and more. Then these splinter groups want to have more and more additional non Wilderness areas set aside for their personal use agendas. My God Rob..The Wilderness in this State alone is well over 4 million acers and still growing!!!! Not to mention all the other things in the works to shut you down all the time.

I think IMHO it is more than time for Snowmobilers to come together and join the fight to protect what little areas we have. If you cant get involved with BRC or WSSA or SAWS then at a minimum donate a dollar or two or three! We need to get the troops organized more efficiently for land issues along with of course grooming and snowpark issues.

Keep in mind that a large tract of land in Washington doesnt always have that much accessabe terrain for snowmobilers as a simple map would suggest, due to heavy forestation and extreme verticles and limited parking access. ..unlike land in the Rockys of Idaho..hence we get into limited funnels on the snow as everyone knows. Look at Gold Creek, Baker, Bear Paw etc...you are trapped between freeways and roads with Wilderness boundries, off limits ski areas etc. We really dont have as much accessable terrain as people would like to think not to mention snowpacks that have a lot of freeze thaw cycles with high moisture content that makes snow more of an ice field at times. This tends to really hinder the snowmobile usage.
. Ok..work to do so Im off the soap box.

BTW Rob..you and your Cle Elum friends should have BBQ at the BBQ compition next year. I was at the Pork in the Pines" and you guys have most of these wantabees beat hands down!!
 
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Y
Nov 26, 2007
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Deepdiver....although I agree with you in general about taking care of your own before helping others, the fact is this is ground zero for our riding areas. As the gold creek trees grow we will have to look to other areas with open terrain and the WMC proposed area is it. As mentioned before, it's a step by step process by groups to try and move the boundaries further and further.

This is the front line we need to be fighting for Washington riding for a large part of the seattle population. We absolutely can muster our efforts and pay for lawyers etc, and we will, but we can also do the things we have been doing all along, cleanups, signage messaging shared use and listening.

As much as we dislike the message WMC brought to OUR doorstep, you have to admit that a few positives have come from the discussion. First, he has altered his initial position from the suggestion of closing the entire crest to saying that the wilderness incursions were the catalyst that caused this opinion and if not for that, then we might not even be talking about this with WMC, just the others that have a never ending agenda. And a mobilization of our general population that participate in writing and donations but need to also recruit and join the day to day fight. Cle Elum Sledhead and others in SAWS, BRC, WSSA etc.. have been some of the few that pour over documents and keep an eye on FS doings and opposition groups. It's time more everyday folks put in this work and confront the opposition directly in mass and recruit our neighbors that might not even ride to oppose gov't control and closure of our puclic lands. It's a numbers game as you mentioned. Our 35k registered sledders in WA aren't going to generate the millions$ it takes to battle the larger groups, but if we can get matching help from those that don't even sled....well, then the game changes. And, that's the part I hope to achieve in this, creating new allies, non sledders in opposition to closing public land.

At this point, we agreed to disagree on a number of fronts, but what is it we do agree on? From my point of view, I need the next piece of info, WMC to identify with a map his current position and proposal and then some additional information on the area. Is a solution close enough with some modifications that can turn WMC in to an ally with the larger fight that will come with the WWA petition? I think so, along with the posters on the TAY board that have as strong a stance as yourself with simply stating NO to the opposition. We know WMC is making the contacts and spreading the word for the closures, we simply can't ignore him altogether IMO..

You would like to keep some of your stash hidden from the masses right? WMC is no different and his point of more capable machines and I think the skill of modern riding/riders has changed the game to take these spots and when it comes to covering ground, he is certainly outclassed, he has some level of a valid arguement, but closing land with the huge amount available just on the other side of the ridge in his proposal is where the conflict arises.

Although I can't say much about your polaris, he is in a foot race with performance machines and he won't win. I think we are obligated to understand his position and either change our mindset of sharing or help him get some space to enjoy the back country on a level playing field. I say access to the EXISTING wilderness and non-motorized area is the answer, now, how do we do this? And then also help to change the culture of a few of our fellow riders to stay out of those areas by not accepting their behaviour of poaching the wilderness.

thanks for the comments on our BBQ...I agree...LOL....

So DD, what is it you do agree on? You've skied and sled both how do you see a working solution? Come up with suggestions that don't involve closure with WMC's perspective in mind and in turn we ask WMC to suggest alternatives to his closure proposal. Hopefully a level of working together to solve problems establishes a precidence instead of the ever present closure/restrictions as the solution.

I believe WMC needs to answer the questions brought forward if he is to establish his genuine position, he's answered many and identified modification to his initial position, the next step are the maps, give him the opportunity to do this and at the same time, just as he is doing, spread the word about the write in to everyone you know after all, the FS is the one making the final decision. yet if we can go to them as opposing groups with a worked out solution, it make their job easier.
 
D

deepdiver

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2003
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Marysville, WA
I hate it when you get all fuzzy and logical. Ill have to think on that post a bit when I have some more time.

As far as the subliminal Polaris shot..well lol...At least I dont leak nasty Bombardier Gear box lube all over someones sled deck! :>) I mean if you are going to leak at least use Redline!

more to come.
 
Y
Nov 26, 2007
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north bend, wa
I hate it when you get all fuzzy and logical. Ill have to think on that post a bit when I have some more time.

As far as the subliminal Polaris shot..well lol...At least I dont leak nasty Bombardier Gear box lube all over someones sled deck! :>) I mean if you are going to leak at least use Redline!

more to come.

LOL...wasn't intended to be subliminal..but I guess I could have been more obvious for you slow readers....hahaha....and that lube, might be from forgetting to put my oil cap back on after checking it...should have just ate my dorito's and went for the ride without looking....:face-icon-small-sho:face-icon-small-win...thanks for the ride, sure wish we were talking about how to get out of work to ride now....
 
M

modsledr

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2007
2,380
631
113
Western WA
I've been done with the WMC rhetoric, double-speak, and sometimes flat out lies for a while now.

BUT...I would be more than willing to get together at any time with a group representing both sides and take a wilderness access proposal to the FS.

One of the key ideas that came out of the get together a couple of weeks ago was that lack of access is a major deterrent to use.

If there were a "non-motorized winter snow park pass" that funded the creation and maintenance of wilderness access snowparks, then that would seem to satisfy not only the current issue, but would also be a major blocking point to future wilderness additions (I know it will never stop them)...just think of the argument against new wilderness if we actually had some concrete use numbers of the current wilderness. Anecdotally, we all know that wilderness is not getting used...we see it with our own eyes. The average user does not have the time or energy to access deep into the wilderness (one reason WMC is here...they want their easy-to-access private playground).

Combine that with our interest and willingness to volunteer and assist the FS by marking wilderness boundaries, and it becomes clear who is truly working to solve problems.

This message is intended for the snowmobile crowd. I'm done with WMC unless they actually come to the table with real collaborative ideas.
 
W

WMC

Banned
Apr 27, 2010
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Yes yammadog that is a huge part of a solution. Thanks again to all who are working to solve that!

If the Wilderness were accessible, that would be fantastic. WMC in the previous discussion acknowledged the excellent idea for a non-motorized Sno Park at Beverly- we will go with you guys to ask for that, and work for it. Great idea! But it needs to be without snowmobiles riding through the non-motorized area and the Wilderness. Please, I can honestly relate with certainty that the extent and degree of snowmobile riding in Wilderness is well-documented, not meaning by WMC, but known to the decision makers.

There are solutions to possibly serve both of our groups. Again, our view is that many skiers/ snowshoers/ campers feel shut out. We get it that for snowmobile riders to lose riding areas is a terrible thing, so we should find a way to compromise that helps both.

We are seeing snowmobile incursion into the tiny Tronsen Non-Motorized Area as my friend has not seen in 30 years there. That is only four sections, compared to the 400,000 plus acres nearby for snowmobiling. If our sport and designated areas had been considered and respected, we would not be here in this fashion.

Thank you.

* The Sno Park maps show the Voluntary and non-voluntary Non-Motorized Areas FYI*


check out this link, it's interactive for zooming etc. Lot's of green wilderness area, which really shows all the area that can't be ridden like I viewed from the airplane.

http://www.wilderness.net/mapFull.cfm

I'm still looking for something that also shows the restricted, non-wilderness designated areas that can't be ridden either. Something is out of balance here.

Tell me WMC, what's your view of this map and the parity of land use for the cascades? Perhaps you could use this to generate your proposed areas, maybe a screen print and then MS paint to generally draw in the lines.

Although, I think I remember you stating that access to and elimination of poaching to existing wilderness would satisfy your position, is my memory correct?
 
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W

WMC

Banned
Apr 27, 2010
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Far back in the TAY discussion the excellent idea was put forth by newtrout to have a Beverly Non-Motorized Sno Park. WMC agreed that is a great idea, WMC will support and work toward the concept.

Thank you.

I've been done with the WMC rhetoric, double-speak, and sometimes flat out lies for a while now.

BUT...I would be more than willing to get together at any time with a group representing both sides and take a wilderness access proposal to the FS.

One of the key ideas that came out of the get together a couple of weeks ago was that lack of access is a major deterrent to use.

If there were a "non-motorized winter snow park pass" that funded the creation and maintenance of wilderness access snowparks, then that would seem to satisfy not only the current issue, but would also be a major blocking point to future wilderness additions (I know it will never stop them)...just think of the argument against new wilderness if we actually had some concrete use numbers of the current wilderness. Anecdotally, we all know that wilderness is not getting used...we see it with our own eyes. The average user does not have the time or energy to access deep into the wilderness (one reason WMC is here...they want their easy-to-access private playground).

Combine that with our interest and willingness to volunteer and assist the FS by marking wilderness boundaries, and it becomes clear who is truly working to solve problems.

This message is intended for the snowmobile crowd. I'm done with WMC unless they actually come to the table with real collaborative ideas.
 

rmk2112

Well-known member
Premium Member
Nov 21, 2009
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Kennewick, WA
www.northstar-plumbing.com
Yes yammadog that is a huge part of a solution. Thanks again to all who are working to solve that!

(1.) If the Wilderness were accessible, that would be fantastic. WMC in the previous discussion acknowledged the excellent idea for a non-motorized Sno Park at Beverly- we will go with you guys to ask for that, and work for it. Great idea! (2.) But it needs to be without snowmobiles riding through the non-motorized area and the Wilderness. Please, I can honestly relate with certainty that the extent and degree of snowmobile riding in Wilderness is well-documented, not meaning by WMC, but known to the decision makers.

(3.) There are solutions to possibly serve both of our groups. Again, our view is that many skiers/ snowshoers/ campers feel shut out. We get it that for snowmobile riders to lose riding areas is a terrible thing, so we should find a way to compromise that helps both.

(4.) We are seeing snowmobile incursion into the tiny Tronsen Non-Motorized Area as my friend has not seen in 30 years there. That is only four sections, compared to the 400,000 plus acres nearby for snowmobiling.
(5.) If our sport and designated areas had been considered and respected, we would not be here in this fashion.

Thank you.

(6.) * The Sno Park maps show the Voluntary and non-voluntary Non-Motorized Areas FYI*



(1.) Well for once I am in partial agreement here. I am seeing some signs of actual willingness to give/take on this issue. I am not too familiar with that specific area, but the idea is sound. I do however have some reservations about the long term success of plans like this...(Skiers only, sleds only area) which I will go into below.

(2.) I agree that this would be best ultimate end result and we ALL are well aware the USFS knows there are incursions into non-motorized areas.

(3.) Believe it or not, everyone has issues on feeling "shut out or not being able to access the sweet spots". A crude example would be myself and my riding buddies...our situation is not so different from yours..WMC. You dont like to have to share the roads and areas with the noisy sledders so that you may enjoy the "back country". We hate that we have to ride the 5 - 15 miles of moguls to get to our (legal) "back country sweet spots". I know its very crude and possibly a bad comparison...but I hope you get the idea of what I'm trying to convey. We both want to get to our good areas, we both need to respect the others sport in doing so. Regardless of our respective sports, we are all winter enthusiasts and stewards of the mountains in which we play.

(4.) You are absolutely correct!! It does happen and it shouldn't. But, you have to look at the reality of it....you have 2 huge non-motorized areas bordering a major motorized area. EXAMPLE Incursions are going to happen, there is no way to ever stop it. Some are going to intentional, some will be by mistake. Every sport has bad apples that do not follow the rules...who buck the system.....who believe that they can do whatever they want. This is true for your sport as well.......parking lot incidents, ski pole incidents, etc. You cannot say "We will come to the table to work this out ONLY if there are no more incursions..ever". This is unrealistic and you know it. To stand behind that disclaimer is to make a stand that whatever happens, you've given yourself a backdoor out of the discussions.
People break the rules...always have and always will. Do any of your skiing buddies go faster than the posted speed limit on the way to the mountain? if so, WHY? There are posted signs and they ignored them. The WSP knows about them as well as all the others. You see the point I'm trying to make? I'm asking you to step down of the soap box, look at reality, and to not be so thin skinned. If both sides would just approach the issue with the intent to solve it instead of trying to outdo the other in "who got wronged the worse", maybe we can have a useful discussion to get what both groups want.

(5.) You almost made it through 1 thread without playing "We have be wronged", "We are the ones who deserve the change to happen for".
Once again, step down off the soapbox. Both sides have been treated badly, both sides also need to learn to treat the others with more respect. That statement applies to a very select few people, we all know that the majority of Sledders and Back Country Skiers have treated each other with respect over the years and will continue to in the future.

(6.) BTW, thank you for pointing out and reminding all of us that the SnoPark Maps show the Motorized/Non-Motorized areas. It will be helpful to a lot of people.
 
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deepdiver

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2003
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Marysville, WA
One at this point has to ask: Who is WMC? Are they just two guys trying to get more playground. They are un named and wont go public on anything including maps. I really cant see any justification to have a bunch of bru ha ha for a couple of guys that want something better than they have. There are some that will always want something better and nothing will be good enough. Quit talking about all the motorized acres..many of those acres are not ridable due to extreme vertical drops into canyons you cant get out of and other heavy timberd areas.
If backcountry skiers need more terrain without snowmobiles, the logical solution is to snowplow existing roads that provide closer access to legal wilderness areas, and to build a few more roads and trailheads that access Wilderness boundaries. Keep such access open in winter and we will automatically have all the non-motorized terrain we could ever ask for. Nothing more is needed.

Sure, in some areas you can still hear a snowmobile, but overall we have a huge tract of prime backcountry around us. Certainly we must be conservative when caring for creation, but there is a difference between conservatism and fanaticism.

Avoid clubs or political groups and people that bicker with other user groups. Be wary of groups like WMC that call attention to user "conflicts" to further their agendas of use restrictions. People can get along, and emphasizing their differences is nothing less than exploitation. Most of all be willing to share. Backcountry skiers should stop feeling superior because they use blood sugar instead of gasoline. Snowmobilers should drive with courtesy.

In most cases, we should only restrict recreation when it causes massive, irreversible damage -- not a bit of trail erosion, a tent visible by a lake, or even one group being seen by another.

Regarding plowed winter roads: Many in the anti-motor lobby are well aware and quick to point out that the occasional snowmobiler rides on legal wilderness land. This is no secret.

Frankly, I'm not highly concerned about this (though I'd like it to stop), as I'm certain most of these riders are unclear about the Wilderness boundary, and the places they ride are usually quite close to the highway. But if you dislike snowmobiles, and dislike plowed roads, and your life is ruined if you find out about a snowmobile in legal wilderness, consider this: If a road was plowed in winter, and muscle powered users were entering legal wilderness from trailheads on this road, snowmobilers would not be riding in that same wilderness. Thus, plowing a road would enhance wilderness values for the BC Skiiers and others.

Sometimes life is messy, and workable solutions are not pretty. Roads are not evil. Roads have a place, and there is more to roads than meets your tires. Plowing just a few more winter roads to a few more trailheads would cause a marked reduction in crowding of existing trailheads, and could actually enhance wilderness values.

As far as WMC's friend, that reports sled traffic in the Thronson. That could have been a skier with a sled..now theres a thought. I have ridden extensively all over that area and most days there are NO tracks entering the non-motorized areas. They are poorly marked. On the trail from the Blewitt snowpark there might be only one sign that says no riding for the first mile. IF a person is coming the other way there are no signs that I have ever seen that post from the opposite direction. A small sign on only one side of a road is easy to not see when someone is following someone else. The upper part of the Thronson access, again has one lonely sign..only on the old roadway! Very easy to not see it,since the trees are thin in that area and someone can easily and accidently end up in there. Especially if they are from out of the area...who would have thought, a non motorized area directly nexrt to a groomed snowmobile route. The few tracks that I see going into those areas typically only go in a little ways and then turn right back out. If you come up from the bottom(North west end) I dont think there are any signs. There are weekend cabin owners that can come up from that way(non groomed) and end up in a non motorized area. It is not within logic to expect every one to know ever little boundry. Get out there and mark off your non motor area!

When I was in Cooke City, MT there were signs around a wilderness area that borders the snowmobile area about ever 30 feet on a whole lot of trees. In extremely deep snow you are paying attention to keeping your sled moving and not getting stuck...I went thru an area right past those signs about 15 yards or so before My friend cought up to me and turned me around. No intention to be in the wilderness but tracks there none the less. They were gone by morning! Many of the boundries to the wilderness have a natural barrier with heavy non penatratable tree lines. The signs need to be before you are at the boundry as well as on the boundry.

What effort has WMC and his friend that skiied for 30 years done to improve their trail/non motorized areas? Have they bothered to form a club like snowmobilers do and put up signs and such or do they just whine?



I think that before any movement happens:

1. WMC needs to go public and identify theirselves to have any creditability(even a guy with the name of Manlove isnt hiding behind his cloak)(crap they dont even have a web site in 2010 which tells me they are just a couple of old boys trying to get something without putting in the work theirselves..I could be wrong but not in doubt).

2. Maps need to be presented.

3. before There is any discussion on more parking/sno parks WMC needs to show a financial report to see if they have the funds needed. If any of you have ever been involved in creating a new snopark(I have). The money needed is quite substantial. The State sure as heck doesnt have it...we cant even get enough to run a groomer program in this state. WMC will need a minimum of close to 8000.00 just to get the ball rolling with an environmental impact study of any parking lot proposed..(welcome to Washington) Then my God there might be a change in the natural runoff of any water so they will have to have runoff holding areas built..more approvals needed for that one. Then there is the removal of trees for a lot (maybe depending on where it is located) There are logging companies that might do that one for free. Then comes the grading and gravel..that costs a chunk. The state is real picky on sno parks. Your best chance is on private or non State land. I was involved in two parks..one was on Private land(still is) it is a legal registered county snopark. The other one was on leased from the University of Washington. If you look at a plat of any Washington forested area the ownerships are like a big patchwork quilt. Just because it sas forest does not make it contigious. Some may be DNR, Some may be Fish and Game and some may be Private within the boundries of forest. Then comes the DOT into the picture. We tried for years to have the Blewitt snopark inlarged and the DOT has a BS excuse to stop it stating that there will be more sled traffic across the highway..even though the enlargement plan was on the East side of the road. Then comes the snow removal in the winter...who is going to pay for that? If it was adjacent to a county maintained road you may be able to get the county to plow it once it is a registered snopark..that varies county to county.
A small lot with volunteer labor, free excavation and tree removal will still need to pony up 10K.

3. The former Rondondee (it was identified who he is) to remove hiself from WMC publicly due to the insinuated threats he left people last season. Goes to creditability of WMC

4. The whole idea be put on the back burner until after Nov 1. That way there can be more input as there is more involvement by then.

5. For every non-motorized snopark there should be a motorized only snopark square foot for square foot.

6. Last but not least..heres where it gets interesting. WMC to publicly denounce any allignment with WWC and all others organizations that promote expanded Wilderness areas. This will mean certified letters to those agencies along with weekly postings on all skier web sites that they have blasted us on.

The real irony of this is that WMC wants snowmobile access to a no snowmobiles allowed area. This is not a skier group but more of a special interest group. This is a real limited and small group of interest and you cant justify huge changes and expenditures based on the wants of a very select few. Crap I want a Lambrogini..my Grandfather would have said put all your wants in one hand and your crap in the other and see which fills up first.

For now(temporary) I am done with WMC unless I hear something real stupid again! I am trying to allign my thoughts with SAWS for the time being.
 
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deepdiver

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This is from a back country skiers web site. Does this surprise anyone?

This is the type of BS coming at us! How do you give any credability to any of these folks after statements like this? Granted there are many that politely disagreed with her tactics but this is what they will do at any cost to get what they want. I feel real sory for the camera that trys to take a picture of my tags..just out of principle at this point.

Putting sugar in a gas tank could kill someone if they lost it at the right time...Below is the text from Mira's post

http://www.wildsnow.com/2152/wildsnow-2010-sled-registration-quieter-snowmobiles/
Mira October 21st, 2009 10:01 am
My favorite snowmobile noise abatement mod is a pound of sugar in the gas tank. ;)
I noticed you blurred out the registration numbers. Not a bad idea. I’ve taken to photographing any and all registration stickers as that is what you need to turn poachers in. Up close photos of bilers flying by Wilderness signs is not enough for the Forest Service – you need the actual serial number, which is impossible to get when it is covered in snow and flying by you at 90 mph. So, whenever I see a parked sled, sleds on trailers or stored sleds, I set my camera to macro, close in on the sticker and take a photo. For reporting purposes, it is ideal to match the right registration number with the actual guilty sledder, but close enough is good enough in this case as enforcement is all a big joke anyway.
 
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ruffryder

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This is the type of BS coming at us! How do you give any credability to any of these folks after statements like this?

I wouldn't be calling them out on that.. I think there are enough stupid statements like that on both sides...
 
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deepdiver

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Hey Ruf...whos side are you on..are you flip flopping again?

I only report the news I dont make the news..so there ya have it. What you might do doesnt constitute what I should or shouldnt do. I really dont see how your response figures into the equation logically. Please go read from the link and post comments to the person on the backcountry sking site that made those comments.
cheers I call it how I see it.
 

ruffryder

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Hey Ruf...whos side are you on..are you flip flopping again?

I only report the news I dont make the news..so there ya have it. What you might do doesnt constitute what I should or shouldnt do. I really dont see how your response figures into the equation logically. Please go read from the link and post comments to the person on the backcountry sking site that made those comments.
cheers I call it how I see it.

I guess I could have worded it better. I just thought the point you were trying to make could easily be made against snowmobilers as well. Just peruse the forums for statements about non-motorized users. I am sure you could find something just as offensive.

I am not condoning that statement, but they aren't the only ones making them now are they...

As to side I am on.. the same one that I always try to be on.. the honest side. If you expect honesty from others, you must be honest yourself as well.
 

winter brew

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I guess I could have worded it better. I just thought the point you were trying to make could easily be made against snowmobilers as well. Just peruse the forums for statements about non-motorized users. I am sure you could find something just as offensive.

I am not condoning that statement, but they aren't the only ones making them now are they...

As to side I am on.. the same one that I always try to be on.. the honest side. If you expect honesty from others, you must be honest yourself as well.

I have never heard a case of a sledder violating a skier/shoer. I have never even heard a serious threat of violence. However I have heard of skiers being violent towards sledders (ski pole poke), stringing barb-wire across trails, undoing trailer hitches, slashing tires....on and on....
I have a hard time thinking the same argument could be made against sledders....we are just not as offended by skiers, as skiers are by sledders.
 

ruffryder

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wb, I was speaking of the comments people were making on forums about / to snowmobilers.

As for what skiers actually do. You are correct, I have heard of many instances of non-motorized users having very poor behavior and criminal behavior to snowmobilers and none from snowmobilers to non-motorized users.

That is a very good point and should be something that is documented for snowmobilers use in justificating non-motorized users not sharing parking with motorized users.
 
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