URGENT ACTION NEEDED - Kapka Comment Period

Kapka Butte Update 8.09

I talked to Marv Lang with the Forest Service yesterday 08.24.2009. He said it will be November or December before the Draft EIS will be out for the public to view. The longer the better. More parking is a good idea....however putting it at a low elevation with a southern exposure and on the wrong side of the highway means the real value is minimal.

Thank you everyone for your views. This type of action will be in your area next. Working together is the only way we can win this game.

Dutchman Task Force
Dutchman@4Bend.com
Bend Oregon

Had a meeting with the Forest Service on Tuesday 1/12/2010. The EIS for Kapka Butte Snow Park has still not been released to the public. How this will effect Dutchman Snow Park, was put to us as "most likely we will close Dutchman to motorized use for the months of January and February depending on snow levels. I personally believe once we loose that parking even for the two month period we will loose it permanently soon after. Most folks on the motorized side believe we should just to continue to share this park as we have for many years. The FS always seems to feel it should be the snowmobilers who have to give something up every time another user group (Back Country Skiers) in this case, want an area all for them selves that is right in the middle of Bends most popular winter use area. They have millions of acres of Wilderness yet once again they are not satisfied with that.

Feel free to drop an email to the FS and let them know your thoughts.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/centraloregon/contact/feedback.shtml

Thank You for your help.

skiers get a bigger miesner snopark with a doggy area and sledders might get screwed.

They don't have nice parking at the Wilderness........they want it all.

Thank you CatWoman for the bad link fix.

DLynn said:

Thank you CatWoman for the bad link fix.

Click to expand...

You are most welcome!! This stuff IS important!!!!!!!

Kapka / Dutchman issue?

This has all changed now in the past few months. This is my take after the last tug meeting.
The part that bothered me the most and Shane said it more than once, with us getting a new big snow park the other user groups are pushing them to close Dutchman to all motorized use. We can not let this happen.
To answer Dlynns Questions
So what is the general consensus of the Kapka / Dutchman issue?

Is it worth fighting for?
NO

If Dutchman has to incur major changes to get Kapka built is it worth it?

Dutchman will be closed after kapka is built (so we lose 25 to 27 spaces to build 50 that will only make a gain of 23 to 25) not worth it at all.

If we are going to loose Dutchman anyway and they keep taking riding area away from motorized users why would we need more parking anyway?

No we do not. With the lose of Dutchman parking lot we will then lose tumalo mt too then who knows from there.

I believe we need to put our foot down and draw a line in the sand with the FS. We have been the ones to give in every time a new user group wants to take some of our public land just for them selves. I am sick and tired of dealing with these selfish groups who want Disney Land right in downtown Bend and do not want anyone else to be able to use it.

We do need to stand our ground on this one.


The other groups play the "Conflict" card every time they want to get their way. I think it is time to go to court "if we have to" and put this garbage to rest once and for all.

they have been playing this card now because it works for them. We will have even more conflict when Kapka is built, it will send more sleds to the back of mt bachelor.
Kapka is a big mistake and can not be built.

Expanding Dutchman serves the most people. Dutchman was slated for expansion (a few years ago) and the Back Country Skiers threatened to sue and the FS caved in.

yes we need to expand Dutchman.
Yes the wild wilderness threatened to sue.
We have to STOP KAPKA and go back to making Dutchman bigger.
if Kapka gets built all the snow parks will be on the south side of the Hwy. STOP KAPKA AT ALL COST

Here is a link to saws take on this.
http://news.snowmobilealliance.org/2009/01/kapka-butte-sno-park-scoping-period/
Copy and paste if you have to.

Here are a few thing to think about
this is from SAWs web site.

◦The concept of another Sno-Park is a great idea.
◦Many winter recreation businesses in the area believe that Kapka is not the best plan.
◦Many individuals worked hard to develop a plan for what they felt was best for snowmobiling at the time and their efforts are appreciated. (This process began many years ago.)
◦Kapka Butte area is too low in elevation to serve snowmobilers for early and late season riding.

◦The Forest Service has recently indicated that they have no intention to close parking to snowmobilers at Dutchman "IF" Kapka is built. This was changed from their previous plan to ban snowmobile use from Dutchman, due to the snowmobiling community reacting strongly during the summer of 2008 and demanding that it not be a part of the Kapka Butte Proposal. The Forest Service finally agreed to remove it from the plan.

THIS WAS DONE BY DTF TOO
BUT NOW WE BELIEVE THAT THE FS HAS NOW CHANGED THERE MINDS ON THIS


◦All traffic from Bend to Kapka Butte will have to "cross" against traffic coming from Sunriver. As traffic builds to enter Kapka it could end up blocking into the Cascade Lakes highway.
◦Kapka will promote (when the snow is too low at Lambert Crossing) people to ride up along the highway and cross to Dutchman or ride on Mount Bachelor property to access the High Country. This kind of action will bring negative attention to the snowmobiling community.
◦The expansion of Dutchman Sno-Park makes the most sense.
◦The majority of the park already exists.
◦A separate parking area can be created for Cross County and Back Country Skiers. (They will fight this plan because they want the entire area for themselves)
◦Dutchman is already a HUB area that disperses backcountry users efficiently.
◦This is a Commercial area already with Mount Bachelor right across the street.
◦Dutchman’s expansion will provide Elk Lake Resort with the parking they desperately need during the peak winter recreation season.
◦Dutchman Snow Park is the first area to get snow and the last area to run out of snow.
◦The extreme green advocates are fighting to get all of Tumalo Mountain for themselves. They want it for them selves and do not want us there in any capacity.

I would like to get your input on the Kapka / Dutchman issue. As it looks to most of us who attend the monthly TUG meetings with the Forest Service, that they the FS, seem to have some kind of direction to the agenda they are working on. With all due respect to them I just want to make sure we are included in their agenda. Here are a few issues that I would like to expand on. Again this is all talk until the EIS comment period, which should be in about 30 days.

The FS (it appears, from comments made at the last meeting) has been talking to selective groups outside the general TUG meeting venue.

I can understand, however if the purpose is to keep the public informed then I feel the minutes of these meetings should be made public if indeed it is happening.

The FS stated that expanding Dutchman is off the table completely.

They feel that a (expanded Dutchman) parking lot next to a "Scenic Highway" is just not acceptable.

We asked "how about mount Bachelors' parking lots? They are right next to the "Scenic Highway". They have been there for many years and I would assume they would be grand fathered in.

We asked "how about the visible ski lifts"? They are right next to the "Scenic Highway". Same concept as above.

With the earth berms at Dutchman you cannot see the parking lot anyway.

They claim that any letters that come in on this comment period talking about expanding Dutchman will be outside of the EIS scope and treated as a letter to not build Kapka. (We might be onto something here)

It has been proposed that a 22' length restriction be placed on Dutchman snow park during the "shoulder" season. (this is when there is adequate snow on the ground to use other snow parks.)

Most people who use Dutchman see this as a closure. If only those who own a sled deck or can carry their sled in the back of their car or truck can park there.....well, you decide.

It is our belief that any restriction to Dutchman should be considered a closure and we should not stand for it.

The FS has proposed and apparently are moving forward with a new information kiosk with a new parking lot down by the Sun River turnoff. EA was approved January, 2010. So people who are on the "Scenic Highway" that do not want to see parking lots can get information on the area from another parking lot that they do not want to see.

We suggested that it be combined with Dutchman to save money and expand the existing parking by the number of spaces they would be doing anyway. Plus the Highway is closed in the winter and isn't being used as a "Scenic Highway". As proposed we will have a non-usable parking lot that will sit all winter and not be used for any type of public benefit.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/centraloregon/pr....ay letter.pdf


If we visit the Back Country Skiers web site (http://bendbackcountry.blogspot.com/sear....ry Rec Zone) you will see they have a plan to take over all of the Tumalo mountain area as indicated on their map. You can see why they want Dutchman Flats and the parking lot so badly.

They can park at Bachelor for free. It does add a short walk for them however I do not believe it has anything to do with the walk......they just want us out of there. They have options we don’t.

The FS is proposing to move Trail 7 off Dutchman flats completely. Along with that we would loose the last small play area we have to the west of the existing trail. They are proposing to replace it with an equal area back in the NW corner of the tree-less area. Not good for family's who would use this area with children. After the proposal the children or beginners will have to travel down Century Drive to the trail 7 cut off, ride up a trail being used by all users, and enter a play area that is long and thin and not really conducive to beginner snowmobile use. Also mix in the Cross County Skier use (don’t mix Cross country and Back Country skiers together) The Cross country skiers are working with us to come up with a workable plan.....sadly the Back Country folks seem to be a bit less open minded.

The FS talks about “user conflicts” when they want to take away area from motorized users. I see nothing but potential for conflicts with this proposal.

Every Memorial Day for the last 25 plus years it has been a tradition for some folks who like to come to Bend and get in one last ride for the year. This is usually the only snow park in Central Oregon that has adequate snow left to ride on. This will be a lost tradition after the flats are closed to snowmobiling. The parking lot issue is another situation that we must be willing to fight for. Once the take over of the parking lot is allowed you can be assured it will soon be gone completely for snowmobile use in the winter months.

Some of these comments are my personal opinions. Please ask questions if you want to get more information on these issues. Please “do” get involved. This is just one set of issues that snowmobilers are fighting. We need your help all over the State. Just a simple letter can make a huge difference.

Information sources:

SAWS : http://www.snowmobile-alliance.org/

SledChat : http://www.sledchat.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general

SledSpace: http://www.sledspace.com/

Dutchman Task Force: Dutchman@4Bend.com

The Enemy: http://bendbc.com/

The Forest Service: http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/centraloregon/projects/units/bendrock/index.shtml

Thanks for being involved. Talk to everyone you know about the issues and get them involved also. We must have ALL snowmobilers involved to have any kind of a chance to win any battles.

We may need to take this to a higher level. If we need to take this to court are you ready and willing to participate? If we have to dip into our pockets (for legal fee’s) to save a riding area will you help? I will personally do everything I can do to fight this ongoing problem. We have a start with some funds set aside from the 2009 film fest that were donated from SledSpace. Moon Country Snowmobile Club who is now 100% independent, is holding these existing funds. Lets make sure we are ready to fight to keep this area as it is today. We share the snow with all users and it has to remain this way. We can’t continue to give up our riding area every time a new user group shows up and wants their own private reserve.

The time has come

OSSA out of tutch with snowmobilers

Ossa has been working to get a new snow park for about 15 years now. the first was to expand Dutchman snow park.
This idea should have never been let go of and now more than ever should go back too.
So OSSA has worked on Kapka Snow park for better than 5 years now( this is a mistake).
OSSA has not been listening to snowmobilers but just telling what they need also a big mistake.

Here is my take on this and check with SAWS it is also there take on this join SAWS to fight this

The concept of another Snow Park is a great idea.

While new Sno-Parks would normally always be welcome, Kapka will actually do us more harm than good.

If we build this park at this time we will lose Dutchman snow park.(If it does not happen now it will).

Perhaps most disturbing is the posture already taken by various groups that want to shut down motorized

access to Dutchman and riding in areas North of the highway. Their logic is that with all motorized

Sno-Parks located on the South side of the highway it only makes sense to make Tumalo and other locations

motorized-free areas for skiers, etc. While I do not agree with the logic, it does give them an opportunity

to make a case for this. This has been the plan all along to get us out of Dutchmen and Tumalo area We can

not let this happen. Dutchmen is the highest snow park in Oregon, we can not lose it we have to expand it.

Kapka snow park is at to low of elevation to do any good and the tunnel is even lower. It will be of

now good for early and late ridding. It will put more sleds on the back side of Bachelor and that will

make more conflict. It will make more traffic on trail 5 and going through Dutchmen.

We will see more illegal crossing of the highway and ridding along the highway.

All traffic from Bend to Kapka Butte will have to "cross" against traffic coming from Sun-River.

As traffic builds to enter Kapka it could end up blocking into the Mount Bachelor highway.

Many trees will have to be removed for this new parking lot. Kapka Butte has a large Owl habitat the

encircles the butte.

Use an existing Sno-Park, Dutchmen. Keep the high-country accessible

Keep Elk Lake Lodge viable and easily accessible

Lower traffic on main trails, rather than raise it

Use an existing "hub" that disperses back country users more efficiently

Prevent a whole new Sno-Park from being built (saves expense, the removal of hundreds of trees, etc.)

The expansion of Dutchman Snow Park makes the most sense.

Very few trees to be removed.

The majority of the park is already existing.

We can create a separate parking area for Cross County and Back Country Skiers.

(They will fight this plan because they want the entire area for themselves)

Dutchman Snow Park is the last area to run out of snow and the first area to get snow

Gordon Shields

here is a letter to the local paper

It is almost time to get started writting letters for the EIS it should be out any day now.

The EIS has been pushed back until September.

STOP KAPKA

It is almost time to write letter to the FS on this.
WE HAVE TO STOP THIS SNOW PARK IF WE WANT TO KEEP DUTCHMAN

11/26/2010
>
> Just more fuel for the fire!
>
> A great day of riding out of Dutchman Snow Park on Friday,
> November 26th. The park started off about one quarter full at
> 7:30 am with the over night traffic from Elk Lake and what ever
> other misc vehicles that were parked there over night. When we
> returned at 1:30 the lot was full and many people who were trying
> to find a parking spot were frustrated. Keep in mind the other
> lower parks are at absolute minimums for snow depth and make
> Dutchman the only real safe access to the snow. We deal with same
> garbage every year. The grooming program is just starting and many
> trails even in the high country (above 6000 ft) are not groomed
> yet due to lack of snow in some area's. So down at Wanoga / Frank
> Ellis the snow on the trails in the trees is very low leaving
> limbs and stumps exposed everywhere. The groomers can only work
> with the snow they have to work with making their job tough.
>
> I talked to a family who had come from the coast and was planning
> on spending the weekend at Elk Lake. Their comment was what a
> joke the Forest Service doesn't wake up and help the public by
> correcting this problem. They had others coming to join them and
> were not sure how they were going to find parking. I told them
> they had to plan on being here at Dutchman at 7:00 AM or after
> 4:00 PM. There were a few other comments made.
>
> It all comes back to the same issues every year. This craziness
> has been going on for many years and will continue until we as a
> group take the stand and demand the Forest Service deals with the
> issue and expand Dutchman snow park. Building Kapka Butte Snow
> Park will not solve this problem and as many see it will only make
> matters worse. Again we hope OSSA will recognize the issues also
> and will work with us to correct this problem. There are many
> snowmobilers not represented by OSSA and we must all join together
> to be heard. All snowmobiler pay into OSSA grooming fund via gas
> tax dollars to the State of Oregon then on to ODOT who cuts the
> checks back to OSSA as a independent contractor.
>
> This is not a good situation for the economic health of Bend and
> winter sports in general. If we don't want tourism dollars to
> keep coming to our area all we need to do is nothing. I would
> hope the influx of dollars to our community would be a real plus
> right now with the state of our economy. Please help to support
> winter sports in Bend (and all areas) by supporting us in this
> situation to fix a simple problem. Remember we are trying to
> support ALL winter users so we all can have a great place to park
> and enjoy what is ours.
> :ballchain:
> More to come soon.
>
> DTF
>

letter to Lars Larsen

11/30/2010

Below is a letter I sent to Lars Larsen a talk radio host in Oregon. I hope he will help us shed some light on the Dutchman / Kapka subject. It would be better if the USFS just would listen to common sense however they have proven that will not happen. It's time to take the gloves off and end this once and for all.
Please take a few minutes and draft a letter with your thoughts on this issue and be ready to send it. I am hoping the radio will get the public attention we need to kill Kapka for good. Thank you all for your interest and being involved.
More to come soon.
DTF

11/29/2010
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Lars;

On the subject of Government Spending:

I had to laugh the other day (11/10/2010) when I listened to you talk about a train station in Chemult, OR that had a construction cost of $500.00 a sq ft. I have been attending meetings for years with the USFS for forest users. It is called TUG (trail user group). It consists of many groups of winter and summer forest users. It has amazed me for years the amount of money that comes into the USFS for recreation and how questionably it is managed. A few examples.

Kapka Butte snow park. A new winter snow park slated for construction next year. There are three existing parks in the area. My group's suggestion is to expand an existing park rather than build a completely new park. There is an existing snow park just up the highway a few miles called Dutchman Flats snow park that was built back in the early 70's and is way too small to serve the public needs today (it's only about 18 parking spots). It is one of the highest elevation snow parks in the state of Oregon. It is where the majority of people would love to access the snow from but due to it's lack of size most can not find parking after 7:00 AM in the winter months. There is a wonderful snow only access resort called Elk Lake that depends on Dutchman Flats snow park for their winter access. This is where the majority of their patrons have to overnight park and where the snow cat picks them up to bring them to the lodge. With the new proposed snow park (Kapka Butte) they will have no access with a snow cat due to it's location and this will potentially cause a real hardship on an existing business. The proposed Kapka park is down the mountain further at a lower elevation and has a southerly exposure which will cause the snow melt away much sooner than a park that is hidden behind mount Bachelor to the north. We commonly ride snowmobiles from the Dutchman snow park until June or July on most years. There are some major traffic issues related with access also. Kapka is just a poorly designed snow park that came to be to try to pacify a small group of people. This is a very long story and we could spend days going over the issues. (See letter below from Elk Lake Resort.)

"I was up at the lake today and heard about how crazy it was up at Bachelor, OMG you are so right, we need to send a message to the USFS that something needs to be done soon or we just look stupid for spending money promoting winter recreation paradise. I get a lot of complaints from locals and tourists about how small the parking lot is at Dutchman Flats Snowpark and it's restrictions. A bunch of locals and a family from Nevada was in today complaining about the mess.

I'm at the point that I feel the need to tell our tourist the truth about our situation up at Dutchman and tell them to go elsewhere if they want to have sufficient parking and trails to enjoy, but it hurts my business.

I wonder if the forest service understands that logging isn't #1 anymore?

We have a world class ski mtn, destination resorts, and the coolest backcountry resort in Elk Lake bringing snow sports enthusiasts into the area to ski, snowshoe, dog sled, snowmobile, backcountry ski, xc ski, etc, and so people come to do these things and as long as they do it from Mt. B's parking lot their ok. But once they have to deal with parking at Dutchman they soon learn how difficult it is to do the other sports.

Mt Bachelor is ok, because they were able to expand when they needed to, but the Dutchman Flat snowpark is still stuck in the 70's when Elk Lake and the snowmobile club built Dutchman Flat Snowpark to access the resort. With 40 years of growth, you'd think we'd have an expansion like what Mt Bachelor did to meet the needs of our tourism industry. Other States and ski areas make us look silly and way behind the times. I get asked why all the time. I usually go into my rant about selfish out of the area @$$e$ like Dale Newbower and the big/small environmental groups that want the whole area to themselves and can't share, and then put pressure on the FS threatening to sue if they think about doing something anything about it. I'm getting tired of it all myself. Actually look fwd to the FS growing some balls and do what is needed to meet the peoples needs. Dutchman Flats expansion is where it needs to happen. It was in the right spot 40 years ago, and it needs to be there today. Down lower on the mtn means less or no snow, further to travel to get where they want, use more fuel, piss people off when they pull into Dutchman, then pull through cause there's no parking, get stuck, then pull out to go to Mt B's parking lot, find out that they can't park there, and are directed down to a lower snowpark that they can't believe is half way back to town, it's just stupid. We then get a bad reputation. I can't believe the snowpark is the smallest in the state with the largest demand!!

I think it's time again for me to FWD this to the Bend Bulletin, Central Oregon Visitors Association, Bend Chamber of Commerce, Mt Bachelor, all the resorts and businesses that benefit from our winter sports. We need to remind them that we have some problems with the FS in our recreation/tourism program. It's time to get our head out of the sand. Some of the FS people are great people too, it's just that they work for a big slow giant gov entity that holds the cards to make it happen. I can't believe we've been fighting this fight for how long now, at least 20 years that I know of, and it is only getting worse.
Dave, you know how to get me fired up. Jay"

We have been attempting to get the USFS to expand Dutchman Snow Park for many years rather than build a new park, however they always have some excuse on why it doesn't make sense. In these times of wasteful spending on the government's part being exposed, you would think the USFS would be open to saving some money, apparently not in this case. This issue has been ongoing for many years and is much larger than we could go over in one email.

Let's look at the new Cascades Lakes Highway "Welcome Center" slated to be constructed soon. With a construction cost of $1.2 dollars (based on the last official information received) and only open during the summer months, this will be of no value to the local people who live in the area due to the fact it was designed for short term parking only. This location is were the local bike riders and hikers park on the shoulder of the road because there are no parking area's for them. There has been some talk about adding a few parking spots for the locals, however nothing is official as of yet. As I understand it the $1.2 does not include the cost of Impact Statements (EIS), Migration studies, Traffic studies and so on. These costs are the ones we don't hear about. You can bet the cost is double of what we see on the surface. They proposed to have a 1500 sq ft building on site to house maps, information and sell forest passes. Did I just say 1500 sq ft? The term kiosk was used. These numbers came from a meeting I attended with the "Deschutes County Committee on Recreation Assets". DCCRA had an appeal filed against the project due to the cost and miraculously removed the appeal after the USFS talked about working with the public to address some of the issues. I am sure something happened in the back room
somewhere to rectify this issue. The main reason for this project was because the USFS has plans to build a new multi million dollar office facility outside of the city of Bend where they are now located. They feel people will need a place to stop and get information before they drive the Cascades Lake Highway in the summer months. Maybe they could rent out the 1500 sq ft building at night to some of the out of work families who have lost their homes in Bend to help recoup the construction costs?

Why not expand Dutchman Flats Snow Park to include a "Welcome Center" for summer use and accomplish a 2 for 1 deal that will serve many users at a fraction of the cost to all? What a silly thought.

I could go on and on with examples just like this, however this is just in our little community of Bend and I have only talked about a couple of projects. Imagine nation wide what is poured down the drain in the name of recreation. Please do not get me wrong, I am a snowmobiler, hiker and hunter and recreation is a big part of my life.....however....let's get a grip on the spending. We need recreation to attract outside folks to our area. What we do not need is the USFS designing lavish projects then bringing them to the table to see if what they did will work for the local public and then going back to the drawing board many times to correct what could have been done right the first time. Most of the time people get tired of the fight and just give up and the projects get built and life goes on. Good old fashioned government waste.

Thank you for your time and interest in Oregon. If you would like more information please feel free to contact me and I will provide you with documents and people who feel the same way I do about this issue.
ound:

time to kill this

it is now time to comment on the kapka joke.
attached is the draft start the comment now:loco: