Asking for riders' input about winter non-motorized areas (PART 8)

deepdiver said:

hey Ruffy,
Does this mean I get to come to your party with DiamondDave now??:>)))

I was surprised to hear of a skier taking pictures of sombodies registration sticker and then making up a trumped up story..but after more thought the greedyness does not surprise me. The real rub is that she had the odasity to actually post her illegal methods. There will be others that will now do that as well.

In other cases I have heard of falsified photos that showed snowmobile tracks and a lot of trash around them being created by skiers as well for their own agenda..

main thing here is that we all need to stay focused and on the same page for the most part. The more divided we become the weaker we become and will be nothing more than a slow moving target.

Cheers!

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yammadog said:

So WMC, where are the maps you are "working" on, and sledders that know the area in additon to newtrout speak up I need to chat with you.

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rmk2112 said:

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(1.) Well for once I am in partial agreement here. I am seeing some signs of actual willingness to give/take on this issue. I am not too familiar with that specific area, but the idea is sound. I do however have some reservations about the long term success of plans like this...(Skiers only, sleds only area) which I will go into below.

(2.) I agree that this would be best ultimate end result and we ALL are well aware the USFS knows there are incursions into non-motorized areas.

(3.) Believe it or not, everyone has issues on feeling "shut out or not being able to access the sweet spots". A crude example would be myself and my riding buddies...our situation is not so different from yours..WMC. You dont like to have to share the roads and areas with the noisy sledders so that you may enjoy the "back country". We hate that we have to ride the 5 - 15 miles of moguls to get to our (legal) "back country sweet spots". I know its very crude and possibly a bad comparison...but I hope you get the idea of what I'm trying to convey. We both want to get to our good areas, we both need to respect the others sport in doing so. Regardless of our respective sports, we are all winter enthusiasts and stewards of the mountains in which we play.

(4.) You are absolutely correct!! It does happen and it shouldn't. But, you have to look at the reality of it....you have 2 huge non-motorized areas bordering a major motorized area. EXAMPLE Incursions are going to happen, there is no way to ever stop it. Some are going to intentional, some will be by mistake. Every sport has bad apples that do not follow the rules...who buck the system.....who believe that they can do whatever they want. This is true for your sport as well.......parking lot incidents, ski pole incidents, etc. You cannot say "We will come to the table to work this out ONLY if there are no more incursions..ever". This is unrealistic and you know it. To stand behind that disclaimer is to make a stand that whatever happens, you've given yourself a backdoor out of the discussions.
People break the rules...always have and always will. Do any of your skiing buddies go faster than the posted speed limit on the way to the mountain? if so, WHY? There are posted signs and they ignored them. The WSP knows about them as well as all the others. You see the point I'm trying to make? I'm asking you to step down of the soap box, look at reality, and to not be so thin skinned. If both sides would just approach the issue with the intent to solve it instead of trying to outdo the other in "who got wronged the worse", maybe we can have a useful discussion to get what both groups want.

(5.) You almost made it through 1 thread without playing "We have be wronged", "We are the ones who deserve the change to happen for".
Once again, step down off the soapbox. Both sides have been treated badly, both sides also need to learn to treat the others with more respect. That statement applies to a very select few people, we all know that the majority of Sledders and Back Country Skiers have treated each other with respect over the years and will continue to in the future.

(6.) BTW, thank you for pointing out and reminding all of us that the SnoPark Maps show the Motorized/Non-Motorized areas. It will be helpful to a lot of people.

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deepdiver said:

Yamadoggie and Ruffy.
Yamadawgs post "I think it's important to stay on track and address the greater issue. We all know this can be positive if we focus on the problem. Stop the wilderness incursion by the blatant offenders, keep our own house clean and taking the high road on conflict and shared use areas. It's purely considerate behaviour and the right thing to do." I totally agree with those points. We and all Sledders need to be better "stewards" of the areas we have. If you pack food and beverages up with you pack them out. Up at the Sat tower at GC last year Big Bob and I saw three old beater sleds take off and left their BUD cans behind... Big Bob tried to get to his turbo sled but couldnt get it closed up and started in time before they were out of reach. That would have been the last time that happened with that three. We picked up their crap.

Guys lets start by looking at our own riding partners..if they are getting stupid..jump their shi__t. if they wont get it together refuse to ride with them. By doing some small baby steps we will have less exposure. Like Rob said...we need to get our own backyard cleaned up! Ride respectfully and stay the Fu__*ck out of the wilderness PERIOD! Not even a track past a sign if you see it and dont like it. Trust me in Oregon I went to the end of the road and there were no tracks and no one around and just a small sign for the wilderness. The old logging road went up to the top of the old burn area and the snow was lite dry and deep. None the less I pulled an about face and left it..Ahhhh it was trying to call me in. Which tells part of the problem...there is too much wilderness created and that puts too many limits on those not welcome in the wilderness areas for whatever reason. Lets STOP more wilderness..there is enough..Most of it isnt even used!

What I pointed out was not a statistic my friend. It was someone that was admiting to how they falsify legal identifications information and send it to the forest service to get what they want. Sure there are sledders that talk some smack and there are bad apples here as well..but I cant recall anybody going as far as to creating false information and sending it in to the authorities to wrongfully get their way. Even on that site the others that didnt condone it were not too up in arms about it either. Didnt even get a slap on the hand...try that crap here and see what other will tell you.
It's like someone driving by your house and getting a picture of your liscense plate and calling the police and telling them that someone stole their TV and molested their daughter and they got a picture of the plate. Look at the damage that can be done to the inocent That is way different that BS statistics.

There isnt really a track to stay on when it comes to Rondondee/WMC..dont forget his IP was verified as the same. Rondondee made some pretty nasty threats on Pm's to a few. I cant see how a two man show can have any creditability to waste much time with. The bigger picture is the constasnt grab for more land set aside. Once you have more non-motorized areas there will be requests for more and more..it justs opens the door to the next wave. Enough is enough. I do agree with more plowed road access to wilderness areas. That is where it should start. Lets take baby steps..get them to the woods and get some signs up all over the boundries and have signs (large ones on the access roads) that spell out the rules of engagement.

On the other side of the coin or the "rub" if you will...is that this splinter group and other skier groups want things to be like they were 100 years ago. Well the World has changed and we dont live in the past. I like to ride my Indian Chief on back hiways and byways of the past. I like them to be car free adn truck free...however they pay taxes and they are public roads and they have as much right to the same road as I do. It is beyond reason for me to think that the World should go back to the 1940's so I can have a good woodster riding all by myself with no noise from those smelly diesel trucks and annoying cars that ride my arse.

Or...The guy that likes to go to the old fishing hole with his buddies from his small town. They used to have a nice quite spot to smoke some loco weed and throw a bobber out with a worm and eat some potato chips...now the their world has changed and there are ethnic people showing up. They park their old oil smoking beater next to the lake right next to where they are at. They play their music and drink their beer and get lloud and stupid. They have their uncontrolled kids there jumping in the water. These three good ole boys that want the public fishing hole to be like it was in the 1930's. Well that is just not feasable and would be a discriminatory practice. I guess they could ask for their private spot on the public lake..but when everybody pays for that same area should they have a right to have that set aside? The Forest service sure as heck doesnt have the time or money to do everything all these special interest groups want. It is Public land, and with that in mind you shouldnt restrict others or ask for rules to be inforced that basically discriminate against them because you dont like the color of their skin, the color of their mode of recreation or the noise that made your fishing hole a different place. The World is a different place and we cant expect to have areas all to ourselves. Sure I would like to have a place set aside just for me with no non turboed sleds as the others are too slow and cant get out of the way fast enough and this causes a saftey hazard. Thats a big BS statement dont ya think and isnt fair to the rest that paid their taxes and registrations just the same The moral of the story is that there is way more to these type of requests than what we see at face value. So the poor ole boys had to revert to Power Bait and ipods and iphones with bluetooth to keep the noise out. Thru on some dark sunglasses and had to look the other way. They still ahd a good time..it was just a different time adn maybe not as good as before, but the world isnt as good as it was before so we need to quit trying to create fantasy land.

However any group has to have some creditability established to consider their wishes..WMC is a splinter group that has lied and down right misconstrued the truth on multiple occasions. I have a real hard time coming to the table with those of little creditability that wont even identify theirselves. You just cant have an isolated give away or it will set a precedence for others to come and we will be hashing crap like this out non stop for ever. I used to be one heck of a telemarker...I didnt like the thought of snowboarders..then I tried it and found out that it was way more fun to snowboard..opened up more terrain not in acreas but what you can do with it. The Other tele's including some of my friends would not invite me any more..I flattened out their snow(dont know how it became theirs) I floated in powder better than they could and I could ride better than them and get better air. The feeling of deep powder was more like floating on a cloud..they could not have the enjoyment that I did and they didnt like it! The BC skiers still dont want anything other than their own kind...very self centered..I was one of them and now see how dumb my ways were. Only when you change can you see back at how dumb your ideas really were.

WMC says they dont want to close off snowmobiling..yet they aligned with WWC. They(or the two to three of them) are trying to play both sides. They are trying to get support from any direction and hope they make out somehow. That my friend is Using People! Your Karma may kick your arse for that. Make no mistake about it – in today’s world you must ‘buy’ access to our public lands by bringing money, volunteer resources, and partnerships to the table. Without such efforts – whether you like it or not and since WMC doesnt have the resources they want to ride on someone elses dime! If they had the finances they would have a web site at a minimum and would have had legal documents drawn up. They would have had maps for their proposed areas. If you go to the Wenatchee forest site and go to the Forest Plan revision there are a few "word" docs...open up and se some of the so called comments. An assumption is that some of these are from WMC he just copies stuff others have written. I have written them extensively and did not see one comment that I had.!

Environmental groups are working like never before to have snowmobiling kicked out of many great riding areas across all States, so the stakes are higher than ever. New groups like the Winter Wildlands Alliance have formed and exist solely for one reason – they “hate” snowmobiles and continue to push the Forest Service for exclusive “quiet use” areas where snowmobiling would become prohibited. We simply can’t let that happen

I think we really need to floor this whole idea until closer to winter. There have only been a very few of us here even engaged. The most I have seen viewing this thread are 3 at any one time.Lets see what the masses think as it effects many more than just us few.

Perhaps RMK2112, the moderator can create a Poll with a bunch of different ideas and thoughts and see what folks click on.

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yammadog said:

Mark,

How long has the land use battle been going on? Plenty long. What's been happening? We keep losing. That is because we dont "unite". We need to band together and fight for our right to snowmobile. By uniting the voices of thousands of snowmobilers throughout the west together we can win many of these battles and protect our form of recreation.

If we have the ability to understand another users perspective and respect their right to have their opinion then we have the ability to support thier effort to exploit what is already in place. NO...we should support multiple use recreation and not support exclusive designations that eliminate one form of recreation over another.

WMC has altered their initial position of an all out closure of the area. They've identified support for newtrouts comments and continue to come here in discussion to get bashed as liars and selfish. Sure, in the initial proposal it could be said selfish, but again, the position has changed and I think we can recognize it as good faith discussion. Not sure about that one...WMC/Rondondee have made attempts to get whatever they can at any cost. Once you make trumped up statements and statements based on something a friend told you there isnt real validity to that. IT is heresay at best. WMC needs to denounce their association with those other groups that they also support , that want to kill snowmobiling all together. They also need to denounce publicly their wishes to have more wilderness areas. Ther are over 106 million acreas of wilderness and most of that is in the West states. WMC/Rondondee is not perceived as an honest entity. They are perceived as a BS forked tongue group that will work all sides to get whatever they can for their own personal gain regardless of how they do it. Perception is truth until proven otherwise.

He's concealed his identity to the larger 4m population, but not to everyone, I'm aware of who he is, his profession, his contacts etc. And at some point it may become more public if he feels secure enough to do so. Nope: needs to man up and come clean. Admit the Rondondee association and his attacks on others including verbal threats or percieved threats. Heck he even made a physical challenge to me. Admin was notified of his behaviour. There he was having a pipe dream and better back the helele off in his best interest.

Like it or not splintered or coordinated larger groups are having our areas shutdown at every turn. As Oregongirl identified earlier, a similar small group has been successful in Oregon with the sledders simply and completely opposed. Case by Case basis..again thats because we dont unite. We just have a bunch of spread out groups and people that cant get on the same page to fight. I just am not ready to stick my head in the sand or snow, and pretend this problem is not happening.

If we are able to assist in an alternative with the goals WMC has identified, why wouldn't we support that effort if it means us not losing area and in turn gaining a possible ally in the larger battle with WWA etc.? Thats interesting..but WMC has alligned with WWA, WWC etc...sorry if I dont get all the fanatical acronyms correct. They go back and forth??? They are either confused or changing their tactics to fit their mission the best...they need to know what they want.

WMC did state they are not in support of eliminating sleds, just looking to gain better access or save some of that area that had been traditional for them. And we do have more "regular" riders making their way in to areas that had been usually only visited by the hard core skilled riders, so nothing he is saying is outside of some level of fact. Agreed :>) well almost...Sure they dont want to eliminate sleds...thats so he can still get his beater sled up to the edge of the wilderness area via a plowed road on my tax payer dime..I dont think he cares anything about the freedom and experiance of real snowmobile riding..If I have to explain it to them, they wouldnt get it or understand it anyway..He has stretched the truth a lot and made it more colorful than it really is. WMC makes their little hurt feelings seem worse than they need to be. As far as thier traditional areas..well it wast their land but public land so none of it was "thiers". IF that was the case then we should have the the animal Trappers use the same land as them. The Trapper had those areas way before WMC. Not to mention the Native Americans..should we ask them about the use of traditional areas? Very weak argument IMHO.

The question comes about, how do we save our riding areas and not continually spend money in legal battles and fighting constant closure and losing most of the time? Easy...by uniting in numbers!

Let's set a new precedent in keeping areas open by finding ways to work with the opposition, if it doesn't work out, then we can take the old route and hope for a different outcome. In a perfect world that might work...unfortunatly with the minds of the enviromental nazis we will always be under attack. There are too many of them that far outnumber WMC that are approaching in our direction. In addition WMC has endorsed some of these. They have even gone and posted for help in their fight on some of their web sites.

At this point, it's creating greater access, redesignating existing non-motorized area and changing our culture to calling out the poachers and people that aren't doing the right thing with their junk and common courtesy to other users. So, how do we do that? who do we talk to? What's the process? What method do we use for communications? This is where it gets difficult...I can not post what will happen to poachers should they be cought. You know its like the idiot I cought last year hunting driving across the medeows with his Escalade, weapon in hand and spot light in the other hand. The escalade smelled like a french whore house! LOng story short they wont do it again..well at least in that area. Snowmobilers need to get in the face of anybody they know that even hints at going into an unaurhorized area. I have a friend of mine that wants to do things like this on a smaller scale after a few drinks..a firm NO WAY..ususlly gets him straightened out. Granted there is a lot more work needed in this regard. Snowmobile clubs need to help out in wildernes sign postings. Get the signs out that warn before you get to the boundry. They cant just be a single sign on the road..they have to be all over the place. WMC who is the most upset about incroachment should pony up some change and have some Trail Cams....I use them for hunting(scouting) They have IR flash and motion sensors. They are camoed and some look like tree bark. There are some that can be ownloaded remotely. WMC also needs to show a financial statement and be registered as a 501c organization. They need to denounce one of hteir eailier statements on a different forum where they wanted these areas so they could also offer snowmobile accessed for profit ski tours. That is where I call BS on it all. They are looking for a way to use the tas payers for their personal advantage and that just isnt right! I think all in all WMC has tried to many unethical methods to get what they want. They are not a respected or valid user group. Should they become one..well then and only then maybe I could give some consideration or re-evaluate(again bribery with BBQ and beer would help) I may be easy but I am not cheap..opps I meant I am cheap but not easy

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