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Winter Wildlands Alliance

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snengineer

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2007
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South Jordan, Utah
Pump the breaks guys its not what they wanted by any means, calling this ruling a victory is kind of a joke really. Its a north korean approach to what a victory is...really they are full of crap. If you dont have your local FS district supervisors cell number on your speed dial I encourage you to do so now. ALL open/closed areas that are not wilderness will be determined by the districts. I have seen these maps in districts in Utah already. They are not what WWA says they are, calm down and dont buy in to the "victory" they are claiming here. FS will leave open what been open and has use, so go ride, dont be douches like WWA and express your concerns civily to the right people.
 

boondocker97

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Oct 30, 2008
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Billings MT
I just took the time to read the actual document and it really isn't as bad as for us as WWA makes it out to be. Seems that a lot of what they were pushing for is outside the scope of the ruling. Over snow vehicles were kept separated from other motorized plans, and the local districts will get to decide what is open for OSV use and what isn't. Now hopefully everyone's local district manager is pro-snowmobile! WWA won't be able to provide comment on areas deemed open for OSVs, but we won't be able to comment on areas deemed closed either.
 

Pickin’ Boogers

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Apr 5, 2013
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The problem is that a lot of the decision making will be out of the hands of the local USFS districts, even if the local leadership is supportive of OSV use.

Now the NEPA process at each forest will be open to public comment and threats of lawsuits from Winter Wildlands, the Sierra Club, Center for Biological Diversity, etc etc. These "non-profits" have found it quite profitable to sue the gov't, and get paid by the gov't to do so.

In addition, they solicit generous donations from urban areas where the concept of "preservation" is attractive in a warm and fuzzy way to the city dwellers who have no reason to support "conservation" or balanced use instead. (Check the CBD website to see how many lawyers they employ: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/about/staff/)

Once faced with the threat of a lawsuit, the easiest thing for a District Ranger to do is simply lay down and show his/her belly, because the USFS can't afford lawsuits across all of the mountain states; one for a wolf in Idaho, another for a wolverine in NorCal, another for a sage grouse in Nevada...
 

snomoride

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Dec 26, 2009
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Sierra Village Ca.
Taking IT !!!

I agree !!! So when is it time for the Off Road Community to stand up and do the same thing to them . We "all of us "who use OUR Forest to do what ever in them need to take a stand, I have been trying for a couple of years now to get Our County Supervisors involved but they be bothered with it. These Enviro groups are making our small rural community's into nothing but yuppie hang outs !! Some of my Business relies on people coming into our county and Ride ATVs, Snowmobiles. I also have the Grooming Contract for this Forest for the next 4 years and we have to obey the 18" snow depth rule. I can't start grooming until there is at least 18" at our snow park doesn't matter if there is 2 feet just around the corner. We have a low elevation Snopark and is in the Sun a lot. So 18" even on a good year is hard to maintain. So far this year Mother Nature has a different plan away ways. But I can handle that I'm just getting tired of someone else telling me that I can't make any money in my Business or enjoying My backyard which is OUR PUBILC LANDS. Hell we still have at least 80% of our RIM FIRE Timber still standing here because of these people (Sierra Club) and others and a stupid Judge in Idaho Stopping Logging here to remove the burnt tree's. Citing the effects of logging by Damaging the Forest!!! What in the HELL did the Fire do .DAH!!!!! WE NEED TO MAKE A DIFFERANCE!!
AND YES I"M PISSED OFF.
 

boondocker97

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Where do you see that?

Here's a more readable version if anyone's interested.

https://www.federalregister.gov/art...over-snow-vehicles-travel-management-rule#h-8

I should re-word that to be "direct legal challenge" instead of "comment". After the use areas are defined by the local responsible authorities (with public input) and published on an OSV map, the areas are set. Now the ruling says the Forest Service maintains the right to change use designations on its lands as it sees fit. However, it is not required to revisit its decisions once they are made. If the Forest Service deems a change is necessary, public notice is all that is required. OSV route and area designations that have already been made under past rules and laws that are chosen to be included in the new maps are not required to be re-visited. (See page 10 of the published record document) Also, no Environmental Impact Studies are necessary to establish the OSV use areas. (Last page of the record document). I think WWA would have really liked to have all the existing plans re-visited and provide comments again, as well as challenge for an EIS on each approved area.

People can indeed comment on the plans, but the FS has no obligation to make changes unless they see fit (or get fed up enough with whoever is doing the complaining to appease them). So get in good with your ranger districts!
 

snomoride

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Dec 26, 2009
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Sierra Village Ca.
Taken It

That's what were trying to here in our Forest is getting in good with new Ranger , She doesn't want anything to change as far as closing anything actually she wants to see more area for us to ride, There some Gray areas put in place here about 10 years ago, There not Wilderness there called Near Natural she would like to that changed because of how close it is to all the riding area's just off the Groomed trail, So far so good. Our last meeting here with the FS was good we out numbered the CC Skier by 95% and the 6 of them showed there true colors by saying that ALL SNOWMOBILES should only be legal to ride on Groomed Trails nothing else!! Well that was stupid on there part but good for us ! One of the things that were fighting with is that a FS animal Biologist is looking at Animal harassment! After there test by hanging Frozen Chickens in Trees to get a motion Camera to get pictures of them ! They got pictures of there little critters and us. Looks like we can co exist with them critters!!
 

psychoneurosis

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Premium Member
Oct 15, 2008
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Longmont CO
www.psychoneurosisracing.com
I don't see how the new winter travel rule is anything but a significant defeat for the WWA folks. All current management decisions currently in place are carried forward. The only thing the USFS has to do at some point in the future is create a map for these decisions.

I have not seen a forest plan that does not at some level address snowmobile usage.
 
C
Dec 24, 2014
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I don't see how the new winter travel rule is anything but a significant defeat for the WWA folks. All current management decisions currently in place are carried forward. The only thing the USFS has to do at some point in the future is create a map for these decisions.

I have not seen a forest plan that does not at some level address snowmobile usage.


I would tend to agree that WWA's assessment of the decision was a bit of propaganda on their part. I think I read correctly that EIS is not required for over snow travel areas? That is a massive defeat for them as well since wildlife was one of their last hopes for closures.

I think anybody that has been very involved with this who process knows that the move to local decision making is a blow to the WWA as well. They always did well fighting us in DC but, often fall short on the local level. Their massive funding means they do well with lawyers and lobbyists but that doesn't translate anymore with this new ruling.
 

Dogmeat

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Feb 1, 2006
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Castle Rock, CO
Call me a "glass is half empty" type of guy, but the way I read this is essentially whoever or whatever spends the most money at the local level will now totally dictate what the regional managers do. We all know damned good and well there is infinatley more money coming from envirnazi land than regular average joe snowmobiler land, so I'm really failing to see how this is not a victory for the envirotards. Even if initially nothing changes, it absolutely totally 100% opens up a pathway for them to start changing it to their liking. This is ultimately going to result in a lot more political bargaining for new wilderness designations that, as we all know, are going to be a lot more easily expanded in future years.

I've said this for years, and its nowhere more apparent than in Uintah County, Utah right now. The oil companies have lobbied the local legislatures to do everything they can to avoid having an area designated as wilderness in an area they think they want to drill, so the local legislature has effectively offered up the best area for snowmobiling in the eastern Uintahs as a "compromise" to tide SUWA over. Do you think for one second SUWA will stop there? Hell no. They'll be right back to pushing for a wilderness designation to stop any future drilling projects as well as soon as the first deal goes through.

So who gets screwed? The OHV crowd. AKA, joe public. We just collectively aren't worth enough money to matter to anyone anymore, period.

So now we have another inroad to more wilderness areas so the billionaires can effectively buy up more public land for pennies on the dollar then not pay any taxes on it....

Anybody wanna buy some sleds? I think I'm getting out of it while the getting is good.
 
C
Dec 24, 2014
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I think you are wrong. There is NO local money for skiers. They are broke jobless hippies in most cases around here. The big anti freedom money has always been collected nationally. the closure folks have a strong national organization. Sledders are different, we are local, and we have more resources locally that the skiers.

I think it remains to be seen how it plays out but I see the closure folks having to completely reorganize in order to be effective. We, on the other hand are much better organized locally. I think we have a much better chance of slowing their roll with this decision.

They will never stop, that is for sure but, This changes the game substantially. I think in our favor.
 
S
May 2, 2013
1,221
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Colorado
Bump for an update. WWA is a strong group and is capable of changing the landscape for snowmobile users.

This was a conference that was held here in Colorado. I highly advise you to read the Notes from Day 1 and 2 so you can understand how WWA is working with the various user groups.

https://winterwildlands.org/2015-grassroots-advocacy-conference/

Note the "hybrid" user group is folks like myself who use snowmobiles to access ski terrain.
 
Y
Jan 30, 2009
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How do we go about creating a set of ethics?
Getting partners on board gets support from all aspects of the community
Takes time….
Need ski area buy-in
Eventually it’s so ingrained that if you don’t follow it you look stupid
Something to be said for having local hot-shots involved because people look up to them
Don’t need to reinvent the wheel, the templates are out there (look at ROCK project, mountain biking movement)
What’s Next?



I copied this from their closing of day 2.

How do they create a set of ETHICS?
"Eventually its so ingrained that if you don't follow it you look stupid"
"Something to be said for having local hot-shots involved because people look up to them"

Their own rock solid plan to CREATE ETHICS. sheeesh. and OSV users are needing to be outlawed?
 
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