Avy packs failed!

I know not all details have been released, but do you know what brand of pack? Any idea when the packs were deployed (they won't work if you don't pull them until just before the snow stops moving). More detail would greatly help us all understand what happened and why the bags failed.

Also, just as you stated, just because a person has all the safety gear doesn't mean they are 100% protected. Just because you wear your seatbelt in your car doesn't mean you'll survive every accident....but your chances of survival go way up. Same thing with the avy bags.

Sounds like much more info is needed here before you could classify this as "avy bags failed".

RIP

I'd say that the skiers failed. Whatever gear they may have had was not enough to save them from the situation that they created for themselves.

Mtn-Track said:

I'd say that the skiers failed. Whatever gear they may have had was not enough to save them from the situation that they created for themselves.

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I agree with this statement...be also, lets not get caught up in the semantics of the original post...

The point I think he is ultimately trying to make is that your equipment can only do so much...it should never be looked at as making us invincible. It's up to us as back country users to educate ourselves so we can avoid these situations.

RYB, Thanks for the post.

When I hear about a shredded bag, that sounds like an avy that is simply not survivable from trauma. Gear is great, but can only protect so much. No different than a seatbelt and airbags, not all wrecks are survivable.

skibreeze said:

When I hear about a shredded bag, that sounds like an avy that is simply not survivable from trauma. Gear is great, but can only protect so much. No different than a seatbelt and airbags, not all wrecks are survivable.

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Bingo.

Picture of the avy:

That picture just makes me sick. Prayers to all of their family and friends. :face-icon-small-sad:brokenheart:

Look at the cornices. Why were there 5 skiers on that slope at the same time? I can see how it got the nickname.

One found 25 feet deep says a lot !
Very good point that some are just not survivable. Mabey the one survivor in such a massive slide speaks to the bags worth.

Man that is one massive debris pile!! Very sad situation and my heart and thoughts go out to the friends and relatives of the victims.
Obviously lots of details are missing here, but looking at the debris pile and the details we do have tells us a lot. It was a massive slide, and as such the survivability goes way down regardless of airbags, beacons etc...
Second the airbag only helps you while the you and the snow are moving, once you stop moving the airbag does nothing to prevent the portion of the avalanche that was above you from coming over you and burying you deeper.
Assuming that all the packs were triggered in time and inflated properly, this is a very sad example of the fact that no matter what gear you have some avalanches are just not survivable.
The OP summed it up perfectly in his last two sentences:

"It should be common knowledge that avalanche safety first and foremost should be about prevention, as no equipment will keep you completely safe.

Don't trust your avy pack, trust your judgement!!"

On a slope like that, there should have been ONLY ONE skier on it at a time There are multiple rock's sticking through all over on that entire face. That is a massive slide with a ton of stuff under the snow to knock you out, That run out is huge. Bad situation to put yourself in. Prayers to the family.

For all you guys point out the problems you see with that slope, could you explain what you see in simple terms for a guy who is trying to learn?

As stated, cornices all the way around. Rocky outcroppings on the face mean unstable snow pack(snow doesn't bond well to the rock - rocks heat up from solar radiation and create an ice layer. That area is also a terrain trap. The slide will fill the bottom of the valley. And , there should never be more than one on a hill at a time(more eyes watching and only one person to rescue).

Look at the danger all those rescuers are in. Wow

Knaffie there is a lot of missing info. First, the nick name of the place suggests that avalanches are common there. The rocks sticking out of the snow are trigger points for avalanches. Same with lone trees. Huge corniches on top just waiting for a trigger. Can't tell if it was wind loaded. Can't tell if there was a lot of new snow. Can't tell if there was a layer under the snow that made it unstable. It's not really a terrain trap but the valley at the bottom made a deep burial with how huge the avy was. Looks like the sun was heating up the snow pack which can make it un stable. They should have went one at a time. If it went you have 4 people to rescue you. If the avy danger was high they should have avoided that area all together. Would love to know more about the conditions and the details of the air bags.

My thoughts.

Rocks can be islands of safety, unless the snowpack has depth hoar in it or is very shallow (those two often go hand in hand), then think of them as triggers. So it depends, what was the weak layer. Seeing the peppered rocks sticking through the bed surface of that slide makes me think the snow was thin (thin snow=weak snow).

That is a massive slide, and I too wouldn't look at that runout as a terrain trap like Matte said. Look at the scale of the terrain. Generally a terrain trap would be a steep gully, a creek bed, a upslope in the runout, but not a good sized valley. When a good sized valley becomes a terrain trap, the slide is too big for it to matter, you're probably not going to make it.

They absolutely shouldn't have been skiing 5 at a time. I wasn't there, but by the looks of it they may have been better off skiing that gnarly looking stuff to the right side of the frame (maybe a coulair or something, and different aspect). Steep enough terrain (generally 45* and up) sloughs naturally often enough to not let deep dry slabs from building. The cornice is big, but notice it's still in tact in the picture. The slab broke below the cornice.

It looks like there could be some convex rolls in that slope too. Those are trigger points.

Just guessing here, but judging by the propogation, perceived depth (looks like it was a deep one), and how far it slid, I would guess old wind slab (hard dry slab; read: most deadly and fastest) on facets or depth hoar.

I always cringe when I watch skiers/boarders "harvest powder" in big terrain, by harvest powder I mean the way they make about 10 turns in 100 feet. I don't think a skier could put a larger load on the snow without dropping cliffs. If I ever think something might rip, or even if I think it won't but the consequence would be severe if it did, I haul *** on my snowboard. Few, light turns, and aim for safety spots.

Sledding you don't really have a choice on how hard to load the snow, so my above comments might seem strange to sledders.

These are just my thoughts based on a picture and thinking about how far north they were. I'm no expert. Please critique my assesment if you see it in error.

My condolences go out to the family and friends of those lost.

Looking at the slope that slid, and the areas looker's left of the slide... I don't see a SINGLE rock that I'd call an island of safety. Those ALL look like they're just big enough to fool you into thinking you're safe.

Again... why in the world do multiples keep happening? People who are smart enough to have the gear, I would hope would have the knowledge to go with, and would know better than to keep that many people in harm's way.

don't ever just rely on the any bag... I wear both the bag and my beacon...never can be to safe!

RIP skiers.