PRO-RMK STRUCTURAL ADHESIVES: WHAT TO USE, WHERE TO GET IT

mountainhorse · Nov 21, 2010

NOTE: The actual procedure of component repair/replacement has many steps that must be followed carefully. These are presented in the Polaris Factory service manual in detail. IMO, do not attempt the procedure without reading (and re-reading) the service manual. It is not a difficult process, but you must follow, carefully, the steps involved in the process.

The new PRO-RMK uses structural acrylic adhesives in the construction of the PRO Chassis components.

See this online article for a description of this in more detail.
http://www.snowmobile.com/how-to/constructing-the-polaris-proride-chassis-1300.html

The acrylic adhesive that Polaris uses, not to be confused with epoxy, is a pretty amazing material.... easy to apply... very strong in cold environments and tolerant of less than ideal surface prep. Common in aircraft industry and also with yacht building in aluminum.

I have used this material in areas of yacht construction where welding would not have been practical... plus the finished bonded component (platforms for 40kva generators) was stronger than the welded component in the end.

This is a real boon to the construction of the PRO Chassis castings and their assembly in a mfg environment.

The adhesive is actually very easy to work with in the repair of your PRO Chassis.

Some "topical" links.
Cast bulkhead on the PRO
http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=211636
http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228925

mountainhorse · Nov 21, 2010

The adhesive used in the construction of the PRO RMK bulkhead is made by Lord Adhesives...

It is part of their 400 series acrylic adhesive, specifically 406/19, that is used in many items from Aircraft production, boats, to Airstream and other RV's.

I believe that the adhesive used by Polaris is the 406/19GB package but I have to confirm which one this is.

LORD 406 acrylic adhesives can be mixed with either LORD Accelerator 19 or LORD Accelerator 19GB. LORD Accelerator 19 improves the high temperature resistance of LORD 406 acrylic adhesives, and is available in off-white or black.

LORD Accelerator 19GB allows precise control of the adhesive bondline thickness due to its content of glass beads. LORD Accelerator 19GB is available in off-white, red or gray.

IMO, at this point, I believe this to be the 19GB because of the gray appearance in the Polaris assemblies and the superior sag resistance/bond-line thickness control during assembly... the glass beads are .010" dia. ... this would give consistency in the assembled product strength.

Some of the properties that make this a great choice for snowmobile assembly are low temp strength properties, ease of application... and VERY important in Snowmobile repairs... the ability to release the bond with reasonable heat.

Once adhesive is cured, heat the adhesive to 400°F (204°C) or above to release the part....pretty simple.

The components on the PRO Chassis structure that are bonded with 406 adhesive

Left/right bulkhead clips are bonded to the left/right support braces
Left/right support braces are bonded to the tunnel assembly
Bulkhead floor plate
Top of front tunnel bulkhead cooler

The bulkhead halves are not bonded together.

Surface Preparation (now this is neat)

Remove grease, loose contamination or poorly adhering oxides from metal surfaces.
Normal amounts of mill oils and drawing compounds usually do not present a problem in adhesion. Most plastics require a simple cleaning before bonding.
Some may require abrading for optimum performance.

Lord Adhesives 406 general information... sign up on the site for more detailed information.
http://www.lord.com/Products-and-Solutions/Adhesives/Product.xml/6

mountainhorse · Nov 22, 2010

You can order a complete "Kit" from Polaris Parts for this adhesive...
Lord 406 Repair Kit (50 ML) Polaris Part number 2204171

This kit (PN 2204171) includes
The kit includes the following items:

• 12 static mixer needles
• 1 50 ML adhesive cartridge
• 1 standard caulking gun adapter sleeve
• 1 plunger adapter

The price on this is kit is $195

The price for the 50ml adhesive cartridge itself, PN 2204400 is $40

I have found that you can purchase these items online from other sources at reasonable prices.

I've used www.ellsworth.com and www.nmsignsupply.com... great prices on a variety of adhesives... But I have to check on package sizes (50ml/300ml), glass-bead-accelerator and prices.

For around $80 including shipping you should be able to get an adhesive cartridge, 12 mixing nozzles, and a dedicated application gun.

Extra 50ml adhesive cartridges are about $14 each.

Sometimes these pop up on Ebay... but you have to watch out for expiration date and how they have been stored.

Make sure that you have plenty of the mixing nozzles on hand as they only have about a 6 minute usable life once the adhesive has been mixed in the nozzle.

I'm checking into some other vendors to see if they can put together a "Snowmobile repair package" for SnoWest readers.

406 "gun", 406 adhesive, 50ml cartridges , Mixing Nozzles

mountainhorse · Nov 22, 2010

1. Load the cartridge into the applicator gun and remove the end caps.
2. Level the plungers by expelling a small amount of adhesive to ensure both sides are level.
3. Attach mixing tip and expel a mixer’s length of adhesive.
4. Apply adhesive to substrate and mate the parts within the working time of the adhesive. Clamp in position until adhesive reaches handling strength.

Do not re-expose adhesive to air once parts are mated. Mated parts should be repositioned by sliding to achieve proper alignment.

...

AndrettiDog · Nov 22, 2010

...#5. Don't screw up.

mountainhorse · Nov 23, 2010

This stuff is pretty amazing!!

Stronger than welding in many situations.

I'm working with a supplier to put together a "SnoWest" package with gun/adhesive/nozzles and shipping.

mountainhorse · Nov 24, 2010

Here is a thread where this same adhesive to install his SPG airframe running boards.

http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=219242

I'll be using it on my own custom build.

STRONG STRONG STRONG...

This ties the parts together into a unit-body which is one of the reasons why this new sled is so strong while remaing light.

The bondline can tie the components together with strength that welding cannot... as well as not contributing to weld-boundary deficencies that traditional sheet metal/weldment construction is limited by.

Good reading on the concept
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocoque

mountainhorse · Jan 29, 2011

thmck · Jan 30, 2011

kit

mountainhorse, do you have the kit for

"Snowmobile repair package" for SnoWest readers?

mountainhorse · Feb 23, 2011

Not yet...

I've dropped the ball with other more pressing issues.

I'll check into it.

Cheers,
Eric

miko700 · Feb 27, 2011

Structural adhesives.

Actually its finally nice to see that the manufacturers are finally incorporating structural adhesives into their construction of these snowmobiles.
For what its worth imo these adhesives are actully stronger than welds or rivets (even though incorporating them along with rivets in "certain areas tbd by the engineers seems understandable)
We've been using these adhesives in the autobody industry for well over a decade. With the the initial introduction of these techniques, people in the industry were going pretty much nuts...."GLUE WILL NEVER BE BETTER THAN A PROPER MIG WELD", was yelled throught the shops...lol. Bein a painter I just listened more than spoke lol.
After many years of study/application people figured out that "spreading" out the adhesion over large areas can be stronger than fixed points as the center of the weld point may be stronger but its the surrounding area that will rip.
A struggle they did and do continue to perfect is the balance of flexibility/strength/adhesion.....they have many to choose from and mistakes are still happening it is crucial to choose the correct glue for the application as we are still perfecting the proper epoxy to be used, more for plastic repair than structural
As MH suggested Lord is a great company as is Wurth and others, just be sure to make sure you are using the right one as these epoxys are pricey. I wonder in the future how many of these manufacturers will make mistakes we have to deal with as riders as the sleds now go through trial and error of this new technology in construction....
Two other tips.....always a good idea to lay ribbon of 6" or so on a piece of scrap to make sure its mixed in the tip good before application, buy a couple of extra tips and leave the old one on when finished it will seal the tube up good, and most importantly when it says it dries fast....It dries fast!...so be ready to put it together! lol
Lastly, when the proper epoxy is used in the right application this stuff rocks!! Less weight, stronger, and no corrosion issues.
Oh one last thing, I do not want to overstep what MH has going on, Nor do i want to claim liability for knowing it all or telling everyone what to use(dont want my house burned down by a mob of mad sledders lol) Since we have pretty large accounts and I know most of the reps quite well, I could probably also get the forum "hooked" up with one and get a "deal"

Oregonsledder · Aug 23, 2011

Mountainhorse, I am going to be installing BetterBoards on my new PRO and would like to use the Lord adhesive (and rivits). The short work time of the 406 concerns me. I have read quite a bit on the Lord site and it looks like the 410/19 would be a better choice because it has about a 20 minute work time. It seems to be identical to the 406 with a longer work time. Any comments on this?
Thanks

mountainhorse · Aug 23, 2011

410 is, for all practical purposes, identical to 406 except for the work/cure time.

The cure time is kind of a double edged sword... the longer cure time versions are more likely to "ooze" out of the joint.. but the shorter, as you have said, give more open work time.

It is a bit harder to find but if you have a source... make sure it is the glass bead filled variety (410/19GB)... It does not run/sag as much and keeps the bond-line thickness more consistent.

Rick! · Aug 23, 2011

Oregonsledder said:
Mountainhorse, I am going to be installing BetterBoards on my new PRO and would like to use the Lord adhesive (and rivits). The short work time of the 406 concerns me. I have read quite a bit on the Lord site and it looks like the 410/19 would be a better choice because it has about a 20 minute work time. It seems to be identical to the 406 with a longer work time. Any comments on this?
Thanks

It appears ellsworth sells 410/19GB in only 12 paks of 375ml tubes?

If you get the 406/19 in 50ml tubes, be sure to get the 4:1 mix plunger for the dispenser. I didn't see "GB" on the small tubes, just the single 375ml tubes.

If you pre-drill all your holes and have an air riveter, you will have plenty of time with the 406. Just put the glue right over the rivet holes for best joint integrity and it seals all the holes.

If you try to drill and install after gluing, you get metal twisty drill FOD in the glue joint which is not the best thing to do.

mountainhorse · Aug 23, 2011

Rick!: If you try to drill and install after gluing, you get metal twisty drill FOD in the glue joint which is not the best thing to do.

Rick... can you elaborate on this a bit.... are you talkng pre or post cure?

Thx.

Oregonsledder · Aug 23, 2011

Thanks for the info guys, it helps. A couple of questions.... #1, why the 4:1 applicator? Is that the rate the glue comes out of the gun? The mixture is 1:1 correct, as determined by the side by side attached tubes?

#2, is the glass beads really needed for my running board application?

I'm starting to question the cost and the benefit for this project.
Thanks

volcano buster · Aug 23, 2011

Just curious.

What is the purpose of bonding the boards down to the tunnel/running boards in addition to the rivets?
Will it make it that much stiffer or last longer?
How hard will it be to break this bond loose if you need to do some work?
Would you be better to just add more good rivets?
If this is too stiff and the chassis still wants to flex somewhere, what is the next weakest link to absorb this flex?

I'm not opposed to this method if it works, but haven't heard of this method to install the boards.

Oregonsledder · Aug 23, 2011

volcano buster said:
Just curious.

What is the purpose of bonding the boards down to the tunnel/running boards in addition to the rivets?
Will it make it that much stiffer or last longer?
How hard will it be to break this bond loose if you need to do some work?
Would you be better to just add more good rivets?
If this is too stiff and the chassis still wants to flex somewhere, what is the next weakest link to absorb this flex?

I'm not opposed to this method if it works, but haven't heard of this method to install the boards.

It will add a bit more stiffness which I would like, and you can heat it up with a good heat gun to lossen it up if you need to. I know some other guys have done this and it seems like a good idea if the price isn't too high.

Zak.V · Aug 23, 2011

I am a sheep and Mountainhorse is my shepherd.

You are one of the reasons I paid for my snowest, thanks!

volcano buster · Aug 23, 2011

Good to know. I will likely be putting boards on my IQ this fall as well.

PRO-RMK STRUCTURAL ADHESIVES: WHAT TO USE, WHERE TO GET IT

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