Do shocks really matter on a mountain sled?

alt · Jan 21, 2014

Thorough as always.. On a weekly basis I get the phone conversation on air vrs coil, and I think that summed it up as well as it possibly could have been with factual information. In what I do weight is a huge factor. That's the very reason almost half of my sales are the guys wanting to drop every ounce they can. For those guys air is the common choice, but simply put in every one of those conversations my comment is...The Raptors are going to give you, hands down the by far better ride IMO. Again even when comparing weights between the two you need to compare apples because it does make a difference. The duel chamber air shocks are NOT the same weight as the low end non resi. and most that enjoy the argument fail to acknowledge that. Bottom line for me is you want the all out weight loss program, do air. I don't have to try very hard to sell the Raptors.. they do quite well selling themselves and the guys that have them will all say the same, but once again to be very clear, fair and honest, there not for the guys with completely different goals in mind. Thanks!

Dan

Deep Powder Guy · Jan 21, 2014

Air or Coil both need serviced after X amount of miles... View the shocks/suspension just like you would view the clutch. In order to achieve maximum performance service and maintenance is required on a regular basis regardless of the brand or type.

I personally feel that the amount of money spent on high end shocks while performance is gained slightly for some riding condition ( deep powder ) and more for other riding conditions ( trails & jumping ) the frequency of service and maintenance is equal to a stock production shock.

DPG

snowmobiler · Jan 21, 2014

and stockers can go 5000 + miles without touching them.LOL.

byeatts · Jan 21, 2014

Deep Powder Guy said:
Air or Coil both need serviced after X amount of miles... View the shocks/suspension just like you would view the clutch. In order to achieve maximum performance service and maintenance is required on a regular basis regardless of the brand or type.

I personally feel that the amount of money spent on high end shocks while performance is gained slightly for some riding condition ( deep powder ) and more for other riding conditions ( trails & jumping ) the frequency of service and maintenance is equal to a stock production shock.

DPG

I referenced that many had said they hated the Float performance as they were harsh and were horrible out of the box and Wonderful after Tom re -valved them. This was on a couple year old design, Fox has change internals from what I hear. Perhaps Tom can enlighten us on the difference and if they are set up well without requiring revalve?

Summit74 · Jan 21, 2014

toms said:
It really depends on what you need out of a shock. For example, if you have tried Floats in the past, and felt them to be harsh, did not initiate, or roll as easy as stock, then no you would not need them revalved.
Your application and use should drive the requirements that you need from your front ski shocks. For a backcountry boondock type set up, I would say out of the box, you will really like the new set up internally, and you will not need to mess with the valve specs. does this help you?

DPG...Tom's kind of answered your question above.

Summit74 · Jan 21, 2014

Whoops...not DPG. Byeatts.

byeatts · Jan 21, 2014

Summit74 said:
Whoops...not DPG. Byeatts.

Yes I did see that, I.m referencing the internal changes such as High flow pistons, extra volume E vol and how they effect the new 14 models. I,m wondering if they are now as plush as the E Vols Tom just built for me.

Deep Powder Guy · Jan 21, 2014

I wonder if the experts know what effect high elevations have on air shocks. It would be reasonable to think that thinner air could also have an effect on air shock performance especially in higher elevations where the external air is thinner.

Although weight would be effected having a happy button on your sled to adjust suspension on the fly with air would be a trick and beneficial feature for optimum suspension performance.

DPG

byeatts · Jan 21, 2014

Deep Powder Guy said:
I wonder if the experts know what effect high elevations have on air shocks. It would be reasonable to think that thinner air could also have an effect on air shock performance especially in higher elevations where the external air is thinner.

Although weight would be effected having a happy button on your sled to adjust suspension on the fly with air would be a trick and beneficial feature for optimum suspension performance.

DPG

Thats a good question,like a bag of chips that pressure builds within the bag as you increase in elevation, the shox doesnt have atmospherics forces on the outside due to the rigid tubing and closed chamber however if I set at the shop and go up high the sled seams to sit slightly lower and requires more air.Ive often wondered about that because even if outside the air chamber had atmospheric opposition the elevation should make the sled stiffer/higher :face-icon-small-con up high,

K2 · Jan 21, 2014

byeatts said:
Thats a good question,like a bag of chips that pressure builds within the bag as you increase in elevation, the shox doesnt have atmospherics forces on the outside due to the rigid tubing and closed chamber however if I set at the shop and go up high the sled seams to sit slightly lower and requires more air.Ive often wondered about that because even if outside the air chamber had atmospheric opposition the elevation should make the sled stiffer/higher :face-icon-small-con up high,

My guess is with going up in altitude causes a negative spring effect below the air piston/positive air chamber pulling the shock slightly down in its stroke

op2:

byeatts · Jan 21, 2014

K2 said:
My guess is with going up in altitude causes a negative spring effect below the air piston/positive air chamber pulling the shock slightly down in its stroke

op2:

Hmm I have Tom,s ear on this, He will have an answer , Or an excuse,,,, lol

Goinboardin · Jan 21, 2014

Deep Powder Guy said:
I wonder if the experts know what effect high elevations have on air shocks. It would be reasonable to think that thinner air could also have an effect on air shock performance especially in higher elevations where the external air is thinner.

Although weight would be effected having a happy button on your sled to adjust suspension on the fly with air would be a trick and beneficial feature for optimum suspension performance.

DPG

I could be off on this, but seems to me a shock chamber is a "closed system" in that it does not exchange gas with the atmosphere (not vented & as mentioned above made of rigid tubing), so the quantity of gas (moles of gas) is constant. Based on that, I don't think altitude, or rather ambient air pressure, is going to effect the performance of a shock.

Temperature on the other hand will effect the shock performance (I suspect fairly drastically?). Good old ideal gas law, PV=nRT, where P=pressure, V=volume, n=moles of gas molecules, R is a constant value, and T=temperature. It shows that for a closed system like a shock (n would be constant in this case), a decrease in temperature must be balanced by a decrease in either pressure or volume (or both). So at low temps, the shock pressure is low, high temp the shock pressure is high.

SNWMBL · Jan 21, 2014

alt said:
So true.. Its just a damn shame but its what its all coming to, and I completely get what your saying. Again as we talked about my rod ends are a Chinese product, and if I could find them here I would use them. I get them from QA1 which is a very reputable company. Ive had this same conversation with them in which they tell me they are built over seas and mold injected here. I commend Tom for seeing the importance, as I don't think most companies do. Its just a ship it out, give me my money don't care world anymore. I can say one thing for sure and that is if the day ever comes that I feel like I need to have my products built over seas, im done, flat out done. Any who, lets get back to the topic at hand, things are getting bit too political. Cheers!
Dan

I was rod end shopping for a couple weeks for the new a-arms I'm building. I ended up with FK rod ends. They are about double the cost of the QA1's (for the 3 -piece chromoly high mis) but have higher load ratings and are made in USA. I always buy American made if at all possible.

Have USA stamped right into them (ignore the middle top one, it's a Skinz)

Deep Powder Guy · Jan 22, 2014

Nice too see your buying American part but if you don't mind me asking why are you riding a Japanese sled.

DPG

Reeb · Jan 22, 2014

Deep Powder Guy said:
Nice too see your buying American part but if you don't mind me asking why are you riding a Japanese sled.

DPG

Because that too, is made in the USA. Unlike your Ski-Doo.

Deep Powder Guy · Jan 22, 2014

Reeb said:
Because that too, is made in the USA. Unlike your Ski-Doo.

Assembled yes made no.

DPG

byeatts · Jan 22, 2014

Goinboardin said:
I could be off on this, but seems to me a shock chamber is a "closed system" in that it does not exchange gas with the atmosphere (not vented & as mentioned above made of rigid tubing), so the quantity of gas (moles of gas) is constant. Based on that, I don't think altitude, or rather ambient air pressure, is going to effect the performance of a shock.

Temperature on the other hand will effect the shock performance (I suspect fairly drastically?). Good old ideal gas law, PV=nRT, where P=pressure, V=volume, n=moles of gas molecules, R is a constant value, and T=temperature. It shows that for a closed system like a shock (n would be constant in this case), a decrease in temperature must be balanced by a decrease in either pressure or volume (or both). So at low temps, the shock pressure is low, high temp the shock pressure is high.

You are correct. Sledrock whos in the Aviation field has Confirmed that a rigid container is Not effected by elevation changes however temps will alter pressures. He,s High quite often and in the business .

alt · Jan 22, 2014

Guys I think you may have read over RPS's post I little too fast. Although it was lengthy it was full of some very informative true to fact info. re read the part where he talks about the 5-6'' front ride height change...

sledsrock · Jan 22, 2014

alt said:
Guys I think you may have read over RPS's post I little too fast. Although it was lengthy it was full of some very informative true to fact info. re read the part where he talks about the 5-6'' front ride height change...

Good point Dan, that height change is due to temp. change.

Reeb · Jan 22, 2014

I'm not in the business of selling or making shocks or springs. I have Floats on two sleds and Ti springs on two others.

when I raced sno-x and hillclimbs we had our shocks rebuilt every weekend. But even that wasn't enough, I'd notice a decrease in performance very quickly even tho my shocks were getting rebuilt constantly(which in turn made me get them rebuilt even more frequently) and then I was told to put a fresh set of springs on the sled. VOILA! I had the performance and feeling I had previously when I first put the rebuilt shocks on the sled.
What I was told, when we raced, and when our springs were put on a spring load bench tool(I have no idea what the actual name of said tool actually is) showed that our steel springs sacked out very very quickly. Limiting performance. Ti springs held that performance for a long long time.

On our current Sno-X sleds we run Fox Evol X's and there is marginal decrease in performance that I can tell. I'm only the mechanic, not the racer, but from the first weekend of the year(or the first weekend where I've "nailed" a setting) to the last weekend of the year, I notice a difference. Even with regular maintenance. However that may be the snowmobile itself as it is not "new" by years end.
I do not do the maintenance on the shocks themselves, we have Fox support doing that, and my racer seems to not notice a difference from a fresh set of shocks to a set with a few races on them.
In my experience, the Air shocks hold their performance much moreso than springed shocks.

Again, from personal experience only. I'm no shock guy so I'll let Tom and Raptor guy educate us further.

Do shocks really matter on a mountain sled?

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