so since were talking about the 600, do the efi models run better at 120 or 140? I always thought that the 120s was about right?
Redneck Racing.. The Fix for the 800 Dragons
- Thread starter Outlaw525s
- Start date
Just curious. Is this a similar thing to what Ski Doo use?
Also I notice the Ski Doo version is about $25. So, I was wondering if it would work on the Polaris and do the same thing as the Gizmo. It is item number 13 in the picture.
If I'm understanding the proper operation of the GIZMO, then IMO, the SkiDoo XP 800R Thermostat would be the same in operational characteristics with the only exception being that the t-stat inside of the Doo housing would open at around 120'-125'F. I am currently looking into customizing the doo t-stat for this application however, I will be eliminating the stock t-stat.
The majority of Doo 1000 SDI owners and a few 07 800R Summit riders have been installing the XP T-stat since it's inception in 2008. Before this, both sleds were plagued with different type of issues such as runnability and reliability.
As far as the Polaris CFI goes and the GIZMO, information such as what is the ECU's commands for fuel and timing based on engine coolant temps in the 150'-175'F range and even higher would certainly be nice to know for certain before I would throw down the money. My reason for this is I doo know that the 800R starts pulling timing out as low as 150'F coolant temps.
At what temps does the Polaris CFI start pulling timing and fuel?
R
Thanks diamonddave. Definitely interested in what you find out. Concerning the temperature, I remembering reading a Dynotech report that said for the cfi4 800 motors that 120 was the best operating temperature for power. However, I am not sure on this motor.
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P
anyone use the slp bypass kit?
Kit
these sleds run way better and more consistent with the gizmo installed. Was told that the slp one is not the same thing.
We will be installing many more so far only good comments on how they run after installed!!!
Make sure to bleed system real well after installling!!!
these sleds run way better and more consistent with the gizmo installed. Was told that the slp one is not the same thing.
We will be installing many more so far only good comments on how they run after installed!!!
Make sure to bleed system real well after installling!!!
Yes. I've been using one this season
Correct. The SLP bypass kit just routes coolant through the Mag side head via the throttle body coolant hoses. The GIZMO also adds an external t-stat.
Have not recieved my 800 R t-stat yet. Probably be installing one next week.
E
I am interested in where the 150* number came from? DTR puts peak performance at around 120* and most trail guys are saying that they are experiencing limp mode at 150*. I know the RMK cooling loop is a little different but I have not seen the big temp swings talked about by the Gizmo creators. I am a trail rider so it may have to do with a lack of snow packed in the tunnel? I rode in a constant 1' to 2' of fresh powder (closest thing to back country we have here in NY) on Sunday and still did not see this effect. Maybe the mountain ECU limp mode is different in account of the higher under hood temps produced?
R
Interesting Theory, So far
I have to agree aith Edgexcsp, and Diamondave, So has anyone else used this coolant bypass kit, the theory sounds goodbut it seems like the engine would run much hotter with this kit. When I am out riding and or playing in the powder my 09 D8 runs consistently right around 120 degrees and only on a few occasions when riding on a ice covered road with no snow being thrown up into the tunnel or coolers has the engine got to about 145-150 degrees.
I would love to know what the dyno results are shown with the engine temps when the power is made and compared to the engine running hotter or cooler.
So typically when the engine runs cooler the engine typically makes
more power right! So just to clarify if the engine is hotter usually the
engine produces even less power! I know and understand there is a ideal operating engine temp. and that there is a fine balance temp. wise here but I think that this just doesn't sound right to me!
I know there should be some Dyno sheets & results with engine temps posted by manufacturer of this product to back up the claims and the statement that this kit will make more power by running at 150-160 degrees besides making your engine run better with out any scoring. I would love to see
the proof and dyno sheets or results in this case. If what they say is actually factual, true, and safe I would also most likely buy this kit but so far it sounds a little off and pretty spendy for what the kit consists of IMO.
As an example of how this sounds off, anytime I have taken a sled to the engine dyno the sleds coolant system is hooked uo or connected with a coolant adapter to a big coolant tank type system to flow alot of coolant quickly that is pushed thru the engine to keep the engine temp low. In some cases the coolant flows thru the engine, tunnel, and coolers depending on how the cooling system is connected or bypassed. In any case no matter how the cooling system is connected there is a high pressured external powered water pump to assist with keeping the engine temp as low as possible to get better power and to avoid the engine from possibly overheating since your not using the cooling system properly when on the dyno since there is no snow present to fly up into the tunnel or coolers.
I would also like to know if there are any established dealers, racers, or specialty shops like carls, SLP, holz, etc. that are currently selling, using, installing, or promoting this product which would be a statement in it self?
For other quality feed back I will check with a few engine builders today as well as Jim at dynotech research, carls, SLP, and pms Polaris for some additional information and feed back to see if anyone has expierenced the higher engine temps making more power or to see if they have tested this kit.
I agree the theory of the operation because part of it makes sense. The possibly biggest benefit of it is so you never shock cool the engine or possible cause a cold seize or engine scoring damage.
But the 150 plus degress doesnt sound too good and if the higher temp. if the engine did make more power? why not just run a higher temp t-stat that opens at 140-150 providing the cooling system is not over efficent which could be possible?
Please understand I am not knocking this product I am just not sold on it and not a believer yet but I have been wrong before!
I do like seeing and hearing about any new product or products that could make these sleds more reliable and consistent for their owners. I will share my results with everyone here later on today in this thread.
So far pmspolaris claims there fix works too with no failures and we know that there is a factual and measurable piston to cylinder wall clearence issue that is corrected with there kit and I have noticed a big change with therre kit in my engine. I will also call the manufacturer today as well so once again I will update you all later on today.
I have to agree aith Edgexcsp, and Diamondave, So has anyone else used this coolant bypass kit, the theory sounds goodbut it seems like the engine would run much hotter with this kit. When I am out riding and or playing in the powder my 09 D8 runs consistently right around 120 degrees and only on a few occasions when riding on a ice covered road with no snow being thrown up into the tunnel or coolers has the engine got to about 145-150 degrees.
I would love to know what the dyno results are shown with the engine temps when the power is made and compared to the engine running hotter or cooler.
So typically when the engine runs cooler the engine typically makes
more power right! So just to clarify if the engine is hotter usually the
engine produces even less power! I know and understand there is a ideal operating engine temp. and that there is a fine balance temp. wise here but I think that this just doesn't sound right to me!
I know there should be some Dyno sheets & results with engine temps posted by manufacturer of this product to back up the claims and the statement that this kit will make more power by running at 150-160 degrees besides making your engine run better with out any scoring. I would love to see
the proof and dyno sheets or results in this case. If what they say is actually factual, true, and safe I would also most likely buy this kit but so far it sounds a little off and pretty spendy for what the kit consists of IMO.
As an example of how this sounds off, anytime I have taken a sled to the engine dyno the sleds coolant system is hooked uo or connected with a coolant adapter to a big coolant tank type system to flow alot of coolant quickly that is pushed thru the engine to keep the engine temp low. In some cases the coolant flows thru the engine, tunnel, and coolers depending on how the cooling system is connected or bypassed. In any case no matter how the cooling system is connected there is a high pressured external powered water pump to assist with keeping the engine temp as low as possible to get better power and to avoid the engine from possibly overheating since your not using the cooling system properly when on the dyno since there is no snow present to fly up into the tunnel or coolers.
I would also like to know if there are any established dealers, racers, or specialty shops like carls, SLP, holz, etc. that are currently selling, using, installing, or promoting this product which would be a statement in it self?
For other quality feed back I will check with a few engine builders today as well as Jim at dynotech research, carls, SLP, and pms Polaris for some additional information and feed back to see if anyone has expierenced the higher engine temps making more power or to see if they have tested this kit.
I agree the theory of the operation because part of it makes sense. The possibly biggest benefit of it is so you never shock cool the engine or possible cause a cold seize or engine scoring damage.
But the 150 plus degress doesnt sound too good and if the higher temp. if the engine did make more power? why not just run a higher temp t-stat that opens at 140-150 providing the cooling system is not over efficent which could be possible?
Please understand I am not knocking this product I am just not sold on it and not a believer yet but I have been wrong before!
I do like seeing and hearing about any new product or products that could make these sleds more reliable and consistent for their owners. I will share my results with everyone here later on today in this thread.
So far pmspolaris claims there fix works too with no failures and we know that there is a factual and measurable piston to cylinder wall clearence issue that is corrected with there kit and I have noticed a big change with therre kit in my engine. I will also call the manufacturer today as well so once again I will update you all later on today.
gizmo installed
Installed for this weekend, install is straight forward, the only question I had was to remove OE stat or leave it. They said to make sure its good and keep it in. Trail temps were 135-175 off trail temps 135-145. Ran the same first 125 miles, then started bogging bad and CEL came on. Turned out egt sensor went bad on this trip, 350 miles on sled.. make sure you guys have lots of oil when the CEL light comes on OMG...came very close to running out. The only problem I can see with Gizmo..slight coolant leak at clamps, I like using their spring clamps but wondering if it needs a stronger clamp...oh and slide kicks on now, worked well even with the tips facing up
not so well for peeps behind me lol
Installed for this weekend, install is straight forward, the only question I had was to remove OE stat or leave it. They said to make sure its good and keep it in. Trail temps were 135-175 off trail temps 135-145. Ran the same first 125 miles, then started bogging bad and CEL came on. Turned out egt sensor went bad on this trip, 350 miles on sled.. make sure you guys have lots of oil when the CEL light comes on OMG...came very close to running out. The only problem I can see with Gizmo..slight coolant leak at clamps, I like using their spring clamps but wondering if it needs a stronger clamp...oh and slide kicks on now, worked well even with the tips facing up
not so well for peeps behind me lol
sled
we have 7 or more kits on the snow and so far we are not seeing any det or anything with these.We are running at low elevation and high elevation. All my guys are saying its amazing how much better the sled runs!!!
We will report as soon as we have any problems. we did have sleds blowing up in 200 miles and now they are still running but i will let you know if we have any blow up with this kit!!!!!
we have 7 or more kits on the snow and so far we are not seeing any det or anything with these.We are running at low elevation and high elevation. All my guys are saying its amazing how much better the sled runs!!!
We will report as soon as we have any problems. we did have sleds blowing up in 200 miles and now they are still running but i will let you know if we have any blow up with this kit!!!!!
tip
If you are worried it wont help, just buy one and try it. all you wreck is a hose. You can easily put back to stock!!!!
If you are worried it wont help, just buy one and try it. all you wreck is a hose. You can easily put back to stock!!!!
E
Notes from the DTR April reflash map Jim sent me last week-
2010 d8 April reflash. midrange fuel added per norm, 10% removed on top for max power. Best performance with coolant temp 100-120f. Try removing Tstat to improve coolant flow, then drive cautiously until sled is warmed up to 90f+.
2010 d8 April reflash. midrange fuel added per norm, 10% removed on top for max power. Best performance with coolant temp 100-120f. Try removing Tstat to improve coolant flow, then drive cautiously until sled is warmed up to 90f+.
When you were blowing up before this kit, I would be curious to know the piston to wall clearance. I would also like to know what this clearance is now, as Polaris is starting to have dealers pay close attention to that and that alone. Most of these motors will survive 500-2K+ miles with descent clearance, or just enough to get us off warranty. As for this kit saving the 800 motor, I say NO WAY!
Not trying to knock anyone's product but you can't run these things for ever past 150 deg, they just don't like it, ask any of the respected engine builders out there. Cold shot.... The newest "hype" word in snowmobiling! Tons of paniced owners @ $300.00 a pop!
R
I also agree with Dub!
PaulAnd,
175 degrees are way too hot on the trail. Today after talking to carls
service dept., SLP, Dyno Tech, PMS, and Bikeman Performance they all
claim that this engine develops more solid reliable power at cooler
rpms.
Some claimed that the extra heat probably helps expand everything
enough to help improve some excessive tolerance concerns with the
pistons and the jug and for that reason alone may help make less
scoring but in the long run the excessive heat can lead to detonation!
Carls claims that if any of there big bore kits operated at 150 plus
degrees the compression life cycle would be shorter then longer since
the heat would possible cause concerns with the rings? None of the
companies I spoke with in person agreed with the higher engine temps.
All of the Dyno tests are conducted below 120 degrees for proper
cooling and to make more power with a cooler engine. I would love some
additional information from the manufacturer to explain how this heat
will save this engine to make it last longer? Besides some real Dyno
test results would be nice to offer some proof or facts.
Based on all of the feed back I got today I can say I am not ready to
try this kit at this time. My mind is still open and I would love to
hear some other feed back from some quality service depts. or dealers.
Gimmick or Gizmo?
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I was wondering if you'd talked with Jim at DynoTech about this. I also will hold back from purchasing one of these. I thought he would've chimed in by now. On phone conversation with him he gave some pretty intresting temps at which the stock ecu starts to lean fuel out. Hopefully he will give us some more detailed info some.
H
Here is a quote from the Dynotech Jim's Blog :
DynoTech : cool engines = hot performance
When it comes to making best HP without detonation, cool engines rule. We need just enough heat in the engine components--crankcase, crankshaft, cylinders, cylinder heads and pistons to allow the fuel to vaporize. Infamous "cold seizures" are the result of imperfect fuel vaporization while running under power with too-cold engines, which creates excessively lean mixtures that cause the pistons to grow too big and stick. Unvaporized fuel in too-cold engines can go through the engine without burning in the combustion chambers, which means that a nice mechanical 11/1 pounds of Air/Fuel ratio can become, net, 11/.6 or 18/1 (that portion of the fuel which manages to vaporize and burn in the chambers) which can detonate and/ or cause seizures. And those big lava lap-like globules of fuel, most of which eventually vaporizes and burns inside the exhaust (resulting in safe-appearing wideband A/F readings) can splatter against sparkplug insulators, shorting out the spark, causing misfire.
Some engines need lots of heat to run cleanly. Among worst were the Vmax 4s with those awful racked Mikuni carbs. Those who tried running with the 120F thermostat removed were rewarded with 100F coolant temp and continual gurgling from poor vaporization. That engine/ carb combination really needed 120F coolant temp to run cleanly.
But most engines will run cleanly and happily with 80-100F coolant temperature, and will make way more power than they will at 150F. And cool (not cold) engines are much less likely to detonate with max power A/F ratio.
Some Dragon 800 owners complain, bitterly, about excessive (150F +) coolant temperature while riding. If we can get that engine to run at 100F or even cooler, it will be a better machine. One Polaris tuner has ordered aluminum extrusions with which to make auxilliary tunnel heat exchangers. Joe from Boyesen Engineering sent me a billet prototype high-flow water pump impeller to test. If we can increase coolant velocity and turbulence through the engine, and supplement heat exchanger capacity, 100F or cooler is surely within reach!
My take is that for the guys who start up their sled and pin it, then the gizmo is perfect. For the guys who take care of their 2 strokes and let the motor idle a little bit before getting on it then they shouldn't need it. I agree the Gizmo reduces a cold shot in order to prevent a cold seize, but I can't see the motor cold seizing or scoring the piston if you let the sled idle up and get some water flowing for a few seconds.
DynoTech : cool engines = hot performance
When it comes to making best HP without detonation, cool engines rule. We need just enough heat in the engine components--crankcase, crankshaft, cylinders, cylinder heads and pistons to allow the fuel to vaporize. Infamous "cold seizures" are the result of imperfect fuel vaporization while running under power with too-cold engines, which creates excessively lean mixtures that cause the pistons to grow too big and stick. Unvaporized fuel in too-cold engines can go through the engine without burning in the combustion chambers, which means that a nice mechanical 11/1 pounds of Air/Fuel ratio can become, net, 11/.6 or 18/1 (that portion of the fuel which manages to vaporize and burn in the chambers) which can detonate and/ or cause seizures. And those big lava lap-like globules of fuel, most of which eventually vaporizes and burns inside the exhaust (resulting in safe-appearing wideband A/F readings) can splatter against sparkplug insulators, shorting out the spark, causing misfire.
Some engines need lots of heat to run cleanly. Among worst were the Vmax 4s with those awful racked Mikuni carbs. Those who tried running with the 120F thermostat removed were rewarded with 100F coolant temp and continual gurgling from poor vaporization. That engine/ carb combination really needed 120F coolant temp to run cleanly.
But most engines will run cleanly and happily with 80-100F coolant temperature, and will make way more power than they will at 150F. And cool (not cold) engines are much less likely to detonate with max power A/F ratio.
Some Dragon 800 owners complain, bitterly, about excessive (150F +) coolant temperature while riding. If we can get that engine to run at 100F or even cooler, it will be a better machine. One Polaris tuner has ordered aluminum extrusions with which to make auxilliary tunnel heat exchangers. Joe from Boyesen Engineering sent me a billet prototype high-flow water pump impeller to test. If we can increase coolant velocity and turbulence through the engine, and supplement heat exchanger capacity, 100F or cooler is surely within reach!
My take is that for the guys who start up their sled and pin it, then the gizmo is perfect. For the guys who take care of their 2 strokes and let the motor idle a little bit before getting on it then they shouldn't need it. I agree the Gizmo reduces a cold shot in order to prevent a cold seize, but I can't see the motor cold seizing or scoring the piston if you let the sled idle up and get some water flowing for a few seconds.
O
I will keep you all posted on how the kit works, we have a Poker run this weekend and i will let you know if it has any problems or any burndowns. So far i have 400 miles on my sled with the kit on it, so far so good.. Peace
sled
I will tell you this i have worked on sleds for 13 years so far and in our area we had 34 800s go down last year and 24 so far this year and so far everyones sled we put that kit on is super happy on how they run now with this kit.we are going to continue to put these kits on and i will bet money the temp at 150 or 160 is not going to hurt a thing on a stock engine!!
Just trying to help guys!!!!
I will tell you this i have worked on sleds for 13 years so far and in our area we had 34 800s go down last year and 24 so far this year and so far everyones sled we put that kit on is super happy on how they run now with this kit.we are going to continue to put these kits on and i will bet money the temp at 150 or 160 is not going to hurt a thing on a stock engine!!
Just trying to help guys!!!!
