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PART 1: AV gas in a turbo 2 stroke

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cowboymann02

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The only thing you have to look for in 100LL AV GAS is that the LL means (LOW LEAD) so you lose some of the lubrication that regular gas has. AV gas is very dry for lubrication purposes. just run about 2-3 gallons of regular fuel with straight AV to give it back some of the lubrication it needs for the motor parts. otherwise you should be fine. its the same principals that the new PPM diesel fuel is for the new trucks. we have to add a lubricate just to protect the motor parts. easy fix
 

mountainhorse

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AV gas has Tetraethyl lead in it... So does Race gas...(race gas has considerably more)

Pump gas has zero Tetraethyl lead in it.

There is no lubricity deficit with av gas.

Any gas with lead in it can foul plugs more rapidly than unleaded fuel.

Lots of urban myth with AV gas... some true, some not.

I'm hoping to work on it a bit for a bit of more complete picture.

Hey Guys

We ran straight avgas last year at 10.5 lbs of boost on our M8 with OVS turbo, it worked great, didn't miss a beat. We run it in our supercharged catamarans, everything high performance really.

FLM Staff

You should have no problem with running AV gas... The performance "character" is the only real question for me.

Sunoco "110" is about 105 MON... Av gas about 104 MON...

The octane is not the question.... actually, it may bet a bit on the high side at 10 lbs boost for optimum hp.
 
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cowboymann02

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AV gas has Tetraethyl lead in it... So does Race gas...(race gas has considerably more)

Pump gas has zero Tetraethyl lead in it.

There is no lubricity deficit with av gas.

Any gas with lead in it can foul plugs more rapidly than unleaded fuel.

Lots of urban myth with AV gas... some true, some not.

I'm hoping to work on it a bit for a bit of more complete picture.



You should have no problem with running AV gas... The performance "character" is the only real question for me.

Sunoco "110" is about 105 MON... Av gas about 104 MON...

The octane is not the question.... actually, it may bet a bit on the high side at 10 lbs boost for optimum hp.

hey mtnhorse! since AV gas has Tetraethyl lead in it, but not as much as Race fuel has in it doesn't that mean that it is a drier style fuel so you lose some of the lubrication properties or am i mislead. i was told by a guy that builds race turbos that AV gas is drier and that you should run a lubricant with it just to make sure you dont get any problems. Set me straight on what you should run for a turbo sled and why. that way i can get it correct for my own. thanks hope you can shed some light on this confusion of AV gas VS. Race fuel and pump gas combo.
 

mountainhorse

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This seems to be a "hot Emotional topic" wherever you read about it used outside of the aviation arena... Lots of people wanting to defend their "engine guru" or the fact that they "have run it for years" or "I've seen a lot of meltdowns from AV gas in powersports equipment" All good points... but I'd like to try to get some more factual information and sources for that info for a change here.

Trust me when I say I'd much rather run AV gas than the more expensive and sometimes harder to get race gas in a performance/turbo motor...If it can meet my needs.

I do know one thing... It boils down to much more than simple octane numbers if you want your sled to make more power and have good throttle character... and also that different fuels have different burn and different anti-knock character as well as storage/heat stability etc...all of that can affect HOW your engine runs and not just weather or not your sled will tollerate more boost.

I have personally felt the difference between two brands of race fuel with the same octane numbers... one had much better "runnablily" than the other in one sled and vice versa in another... again...not a simple "octane" issue... they had the same MON #'s.

Have a look at VP's site (they have good descriptions)... many DIFFERENT fuels with the same MON... different "character" fuels for sure.

Yes... AV gas has less lead in it than Race...BUT... Pump gas has NO lead in it... no "dry gas" problem there.... Plenty of people running low boost with straight pump gas and no lead.

Also... a 50/50 Race-pump mix will have less lead in it than straight AV gas...

Many people refer to AV Gas being "DRY"... As far as I'm able to tell from my research... I can't pin it down to any "hard facts" with source and data included.

Ask the race gas turbo builder you know, what he is referring to chemically with the comment of "dry" gas? I'm sincerely interested.

I've done a lot of looking into this and have read/heard a lot of people talking about AV-Gas being "too dry" but no one has given any chemical or engineering backup to it...

I've talked to many different very reputable 2 stroke and 4 stroke builders and many of them say "it is too dry and has less lubricating ablilties" but, when pressed with the "Why" question... mostly blank stares or the lead argument...

When I ask the lead-argument-people the question of "But doesn't pump fuel have zero lead in it?"... I get answers from HMMM... I didn't think of that ... to "Pump gas actually does have lead in it...they just cant advertise it"

Some say AV has no paraffins in it but I can not find info (yet) to confirm nor contest that.... nor can I find information (yet) on what paraffins do for "lubricity" IF it actually is in deficit in AV gas.

It may just be urban myth that keeps on getting propagated...or not... but I want more solid, factual, background on this before I make up my mind on what it ACTUALLY is.
 
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mountainhorse

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Also, the lubricity of lead is not the same as you think of as with oil bieng "slippery" or dry-moly-lube, graphite etc...

The lubrication properties, I believe, with TE Lead is more related to poppet valve 4 stroke motors... The lead helped to keep old scool motors (before hardened seats and hi-tech valve) from the valves sticking to the seats and tearing up a good valve job.

I am open to some good input on this for sure.
 
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theshadowrider

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Also, the lubricity of lead is not the same as you think of as with oil bieng "slippery" or dry-moly-lube, graphite etc...

The lubrication properties, I believe, with TE Lead is more related to poppet valve 4 stroke motors... The lead helped to keep old scool motors (before hardened seats and hi-tech valve) from the valves sticking to the seats and tearing up a good valve job.

I am open to some good input on this for sure.

AVGAS is 100LL


The most commonly used aviation fuel is dyed blue for easy visual identification. 100LL, spoken as "100 low lead", contains a small amount of tetra-ethyl lead (TEL), a lead compound that reduces gasoline's tendency to spontaneously explode (detonation or "knock") under high loads, high temperatures and high pressures. Sustained detonation causes catastrophic engine failure. (Wikipedia)
 

mountainhorse

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Yes... 100LL IS AV-Gas... I thought that was pointed out in detail above as well as the anti-knock properties of TEL.

In 4-Stroke motors ... older engines were not compatible with no-lead (many aircraft engines as well) because of the metallurgy in the valves...

My point referred to the "lubricity" qualities of TEL in post #28 above. There are many "finer points" to the topic of TEL and lubricity but the scope and detail, IMO, are too complicated and not really related to the point of this post.

Race gas and AV gas both have TEL in common...the amount is the difference.

From your same cited source on Wiki for TEL.

Many vehicles produced before TEL's phase-out required modification to run successfully on unleaded gasoline....Physical compatibility is addressed by the installation of hardened exhaust valves and seats.


There is lower octane aviation gas too... but for our discussion here... 100LL is what we're referring to.
 

mountainhorse

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Here is a good post from Sherrif on the forums here.

Fuel Terminology (maybe some clarification for you guys)

Fuel Terminology & Definitions:


OCTANE

Below is a more detailed explanation of the types of octane. Generally, Octane is rated in Research Octane Numbers, (RON), Motor Octane Numbers, (MON) and Pump Octane Numbers (R+M÷2). Pump Octane numbers are what you see on the yellow decal on your local gasoline pump and represents the average of the (RON) and (MON). (RON) is generally the higher number and is the number many companies choose to use advertising their products, however (MON) is the octane number more relevant to racing as it is one of the factors that represents the fuel's ability to resist preignition. Other important factors related to a fuel's ability to make power and resist preignition are listed below including BURNING SPEED, ENERGY VALUE and COOLING EFFECT. SEE OCTANE REQUIREMENTS BELOW.

Motor Octane (MON):
(a) CFR Tested @ 900 rpms, timing is varied with compression ratio, fuel is preheated to 300 degrees Fahrenheit, intake air is preheated to 100 degrees Fahrenheit.
(b) Motor Octane, measured under varying load is definitely the most representative octane measurement for actual engine octane requirements.
(c) The closer the Motor Octane number to the Research Octane number the more stable the fuel is throughout the RPM range . This is very critical when running higher that 7500+ RPM's engine speed. (See the Octane Differential in the chart above)
R+M÷2 Octane (R+M/2):

RESEARCH Octane numbers
(a) This method of measurement consists of adding together both the MOTOR and and then dividing by two.
(b) This is the number in that yellow box that you see on the gas pumps.
(c) This number should only be used when determining which fuel to use in your street car or tow vehicle. This method is NOT intended for correct use in your racing engine.

Research Octane (RON):
(a) CFR tested @ 600 RPM's, fixed timing at 13 degrees BTDC, fuel temp is not controlled and intake air is varied with the barometric pressure.
(b) This is basically a No-Load test and this number should NEVER be used to determine which fuel to use in your race engine.

Specific Gravity (SG):
Density of the fuel.
(a) This is the weight of fuel compared to water, water being at 1.00. If race fuel is .750 (specific gravity) it would weigh ¾ the weight of water. If water at 60 degrees Fahrenheit weighs 8.125 pounds per gallon (ppg), then race fuel at .750 will weigh 6.09 (ppg).
(b) The less dense the fuel (lower specific gravity) the higher the BTU content and the better the stability of the fuel at higher RPM's.
(c) The lower the specific gravity of the fuel, the more crucial the jetting becomes, and the easier it is to run the engine lean, possible causing internal damage.
(d) The combustion speed is determined primarily by the pressure (density) of the fuel mixture. A lower (SG) or viscosity fuel will flow more through an orifice (jet) and a higher (SG) or viscosity will flow less.
Lead Content (LC):

Amount of Tetraethyl Lead in grams per gallon.

(a) When lead is added to fuel, the knock resistance (anti-knock value) is increased. Lead is also used to increase the octane to a higher number.

Reid Vapor Pressure RVP:

The pressure of the fuel. The tendency of the gasoline to evaporate. Too high of a RVP may cause the fuel to boil or evaporate in the pump, lines or carburetor at a given temperature which can lead to "vapor lock". Too low of a RVP and the fuel will not vaporize and could cause difficulty starting the engine when cold. Most Racing Fuels have an RVP in the range of 5 to 7.

Color
Simply the physical appearance color of the fuel.

Dielectric
The electrical charge of the molecules within the fuel. These are approximated numbers of the fuel dielectric value when using a HDE G-01 Fuel Analyzer. The accuracy of fuel checked should be within +/- 0.4 points. When two stroke oil is added to the fuel the meter reading will be INCREASED by 0.1 to 0.2 points depending on the type and ratio of the two stroke oil. The 2 stroke oil may also significantly change the color. Fuel additives will also change meter reading from that of untreated fuel.

Consistency:
It is very important that the fuel you use maintain the purity and consistency regardless of which brand fuel you use. Try to purchase fuel that has been stored in sealed containers and a high volume dealer. Open or bulk fuel storage tanks may have a tendency to sweat and produce moisture, therefore changing the consistency or purity of the fuel. If at all possible buy your fuel in a factory sealed drum although the cost is generally higher but the quality may well be worth it in the long run.

Burning Speed:

Burning Speed is the speed at which fuel releases its energy. In a high speed internal combustion engine there is very little time (real time - not crank rotation timing) for the fuel to release its energy. Peak cylinder pressure should occur around 20 degrees ATDC. If the fuel is still burning past this point, it will not contribute to the peak cylinder pressure thus it is not contributing to the power output of the engine. Too fast of a burn or too slow of a burn of the fuel will result in less than optimum power.

Energy Value:
Energy value is an expression of the potential energy in the fuel. This energy is measured in BTU's (British Thermal Units) per POUND, not per gallon. This data is important as Air Fuel (AF) ratio is measured in weight and not volume. This value may vary with compression ratio and engine speed.

Cooling Effect:
Cooling effect of the fuel is related to the heat of vaporization. The higher the heat of vaporization, the better its effect on cooling the intake mixture for a denser charge. This is of some benefit in 4-stroke engines, but can be a large source of gain in 2-stroke engines.

Knock - Detonation - Ping
Intense pressure within the cylinder due to inability of fuel to have a controlled burn This could be caused by to low of an octane fuel for the application or incorrect tuning procedures. The sound you hear is from the actual vibration of the cylinder walls or the fuel exploding micro seconds prior to timed ignition firing which may cause two intense high pressure waves to collide or clap together and the colliding energy wave produces the sound you hear. This is hard on an engine. It is just like taking a ball peen hammer to the pistons. Use of proper fuel and tuning techniques will control this situation. Excess oil in the cylinder due to poor ring seal can cause detonation.

Pre - Ignition
Pre-ignition is the premature ignition or lighting of the mixture in the cylinder. This condition takes place prior to the spark plug firing. It is usually caused by a deposit or object glowing in the combustion chamber. A overheated spark plug or incorrect tuning parameters can cause preignition. This condition usually occurs while the piston is traveling up during the compression cycle. Pre-ignition may cause the piston to attempt to change directions which can cause major mechanical damage within the engine. Pre-ignition is much different that detonation although they both can reak havock on your engine.

Octane Requirements -
Fuel Needs
The required octane is one that provides a controlled burn throughout the power cycle of the engine. As noted above octane, is not the only factor within the fuel that controls the burn and there are many factors within the engine that affect the burn rate which then affect the amount of octane or burn control required. These factors include, but may not be limited to, engine compression, camshaft timing, ignition timing, combustion chamber design, spark plug location, valve adjustment, engine operating temperature, fuel mixture, and weather. Extremely high octane is not best for performance.

A higher octane slows the burn rate and conversely a lower octane quickens the burn rate. You desire a burn rate that will match the needs and characteristics of your engine so that you may produce the maximum amount of power, but at the same time retain reliability. It is better to error to the higher side of the octane instead of the lower.

Normally a margin of safety is desired just in case the air gets really dense or the engine temperature climbs a little high to prevent detonation in these instances
 
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cowboymann02

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thanks for the break down MTNhorse. I argee with you that this seems like a violent topic for some people. I am new to running this fuel this year so i am trying to understand it myself. around here most guys use regular gas but a few use VP fuel.(other than drag cars) i can get AV cheaper but want to make sure it works the same as VP style race fuel.
i guess the cost of a new motor VS. the cost of a 55 drum is pretty easy to justify the fuel. If you want to play with the bigger toys i guess you have to pay for the fuel..... thanks for the help MTNhorse..very educational
 
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theshadowrider

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Yes... 100LL IS AV-Gas... I thought that was pointed out in detail above as well as the anti-knock properties of TEL.

In 4-Stroke motors ... older engines were not compatible with no-lead (many aircraft engines as well) because of the metallurgy in the valves...

My point referred to the "lubricity" qualities of TEL in post #28 above. There are many "finer points" to the topic of TEL and lubricity but the scope and detail, IMO, are too complicated and not really related to the point of this post.

Race gas and AV gas both have TEL in common...the amount is the difference.

From your same cited source on Wiki for TEL.




There is lower octane aviation gas too... but for our discussion here... 100LL is what we're referring to.

Sorry I thought we were off on a tangent of lead in 100LL. In aviation, most teach/taught that one of the main reasons for lead was and is, "it reduces gasoline's tendency to spontaneously explode (detonation or "knock") under high loads, high temperatures and high pressures."
 
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cowboymann02

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I am just wondering if running pure av gas in a 2 stroke turbo is a cheaper alternative to a 50/50 race fuel/premium mix. I can get it here in Alberta for 1.46 per litre, so any info or problems would be appreciated, thanks. I will be running 12lbs of on d7 with a silber kit.

No this post started out as ADAM5187 asking about running AV gas in his sled and any issues that may come from it. cost being the main factor. ME and MTNhorse are talking about the lubricity properties of AV gas VS. the more widely used VP race fuel mixes and to what percentage of one gas mixed with another is the best solution for somebodies sled to run...
There are a lot of people that have the understanding that you can run AV gas in a sled with no problems but what issues will it have on a sleds motor both for lubrication and knocks, also long term wear.
there are many gas people can run but no one really has a great factoral reason why one gas is better than another.
Hands down MTNhorse is a great lead on this issue since he has done the leg work of the different traits of gases and their MON/NOM numbers and properties.
 

mountainhorse

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I am just wondering if running pure av gas in a 2 stroke turbo is a cheaper alternative to a 50/50 race fuel/premium mix. I can get it here in Alberta for 1.46 per litre, so any info or problems would be appreciated, thanks. I will be running 12lbs of on d7 with a silber kit.

Thanks man...

Just trying to find out for myself too.

To answer the original question...100LL straight will have Higher MON than a 50/50 mix of 91-pump / 110 VP/Sunoco (both around 106-107 MON)

Straight AV-Gas 100LL has an MON of approx 104 when measured using the same standards as other motor gasoline... not the Aviation lean/rich numbers that 100LL is usually rated with.

As a side note...
VP 110 is 110 R+M/2 octane... 107 MON, 113 RON

Sunoco Standard 110 is 110 R+M/2 octane... 106 MON, 114 RON

Both fuels will have different running character... they both (VP/Sunoco) have significantly different Reid Vapor pressures, 90% evap #'s and some other properties that can affect performance... which one is better for MY kind of riding.... I don't know (yet)

I would expect these two different brands of 110 to run differently in the same sled.
 
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C S Fever

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I ran it in a 700 Powder Special back in the early days with the timing jumped about 5 degrees and high compression head and it worked beautifully. No pre-ignition no dry fuel issues and it was cheap compared to Race/premium mix. The only caveat that I can offer is that I never did run it in as turbo app. There is alot more experience out there than I can offer but it worked well in the app that I used it in, just stay away from the damn ethanol unless you like fixing engines
 
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SNOW JW

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Have mixed race 50/50 and ran it 100% but I am a fan of the 100LL Av Gas fuel. The performance of the AV gas is on right on par with the Torco and Sunoco I have ran. But the best part is you can pick it up easy so a no hassle fuel is a huge bonus for many boondockers. Stores much better than race fuel so no need to worry about how long your fuel has spent sitting on a shelf.

As far as dry, throttle response ect. maybe siting on a dyno with a magnifying glass you may get a wee bit more throttle response if any but for the average sled it's a great turbo fuel and as long as you have some cold charge temps it's very surprising how far you can push the fuel before you get into some DET.

Also with some searching on SW you will find there are many guys that run Av gas with allot of years and miles on there sled and never had a fuel related issue.
 
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mountainhorse

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SNOW JW :As far as dry, throttle response ect. maybe siting on a dyno with a magnifying glass you may get a wee bit more throttle response if any but for the average sled it's a great turbo fuel and as long as you have some cold charge temps it's very surprising how far you can push the fuel before you get into some DET.

Also with some searching on SW you will find there are many guys that run Av gas with allot of years and miles on there sled and never had a fuel related issue.


Barnes... I'm looking for good reasons to use the AV-fuel too.

I've heard the "dyno/magnifying" argument ... but no side by side testing on the mountain on the same sleds or in the same sled, same day.

Also... 100LL should not give you fuel related issues... it is generally very high Quality fuel, stable, and higher octane...

It does have lead, as mentioned above, some plug fouling will happen.

average sled it's a great turbo fuel and as long as you have some cold charge temps it's very surprising how far you can push the fuel before you get into some DET.

The AV gas with it's higher boiling point will actually resist deto more than straight Race 110... due to the higher distil temps (evap temps)... From what I'm finding out (slowly) is that with 100LL you can actually have liquid fuel hitting the dome and cooling the comb chamber.

My concern with the 100LL is Not the WOT running or det protection... it is the radical throttle swings in high-load boondocking... ie, throttle response. Although it may run "well" how is it compared to race gas straight or in 50/50 blend in large throttle position swings.

100LL is only 2 MON octane points lower than Sunoco Standard with different properties.

Here is a great post that spurred me on to look into this more... this guy really knows his stuff and backs it up with solid information.

CLICK HERE...Great, easy reading.

This was written before ALL pump fuel had ethanol in it... If someone has a local pump that THIS SEASON has non ethanol... let me know what location and station you can get it from... Help some fellow sledders out!
 
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mountainhorse

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For those people that are wondering about plug fouling on sleds that run leaded gas (AV or Race)...

From Decalin's website...While running, TEL becomes lead oxide. It is lead oxide which causes plugs to misfire due to its partial conductivity shorting out the plug. In addition, lead oxide tends to form in large clumps or clinkers

I'm looking into this additive as to weather or not this additive would be appropriate for use in sleds to help with lead deposits.
 
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SNOW JW

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Good post MH on the plugs the new 100LL is much better than the 100/130 in the years past and is not near as bad on plugs in fact with a good Iridium plug you should get a full season. The old AV was bad for the clinkers and would forum in the turbo I seen this first hand in a twin turbo Gale Banks setup.

Also another thing to take note of is how well 100LL starts on those cold mornings there has been a few post on here with some sleds in Canada with cold start issues with 100% Sunoco fuel and after a switch to 100LL the cold start was no longer an issue.
 
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