850 175 washing out on steep sidehills

JJ_0909 · Dec 11, 2017

DRIVEBYE said:
I would enjoy seeing your video but I don't need to prove what the sled is capable of. Everything is a give and take if you ask me. I don't do any hardcore side hilling my self. When I do I am almost always doing to set up a turn back up the mountain in 10 to 20 feet sections. Maybe I ride like a bitch, but I also watch a guy 6'5 260 ride a Polaris 155 turbo so he can jump it easier. When he side hills the sled is constantly washing out says he likes it that way.

I have people say why do you ride a Doo they aren't nimble, same guy that says that says it is to "tippy" after trying it, well to me that is nimble lol. It is never ending over analysis.

Nothing wrong with some changes to make it fit your style or comfort but saying stuff like a stock G4 is not rideable is just BS.

I guess what I'm really saying is I love building higher dollar turbo mod sleds but I'd really like to see more companies put out content that shows what a really good rider (AKA, not me!) can do on a dead stock sled.

Anyway, snow is starting to look like it'll line up for me to really give it a go on my G4. I so far am really impressed with the motor and track. The handling is a bit weird but in the more technical tree riding I've done (maybe only 1 hour worth!) it seemed to ride pretty dang well. At least going up or across - and so long as you are one to be fine with a lot of brake usage!

Maybe its cause I expected it to be so bad? Or maybe I just had a good day? Time will tell!

Chadly · Dec 11, 2017

JJ_0909 said:
I guess what I'm really saying is I love building higher dollar turbo mod sleds but I'd really like to see more companies put out content that shows what a really good rider (AKA, not me!) can do on a dead stock sled.

Anyway, snow is starting to look like it'll line up for me to really give it a go on my G4. I so far am really impressed with the motor and track. The handling is a bit weird but in the more technical tree riding I've done (maybe only 1 hour worth!) it seemed to ride pretty dang well. At least going up or across - and so long as you are one to be fine with a lot of brake usage!

Maybe its cause I expected it to be so bad? Or maybe I just had a good day? Time will tell!

So you're saying Dave Norona isn't a very good rider??? He rides bone stock sleds. Dave I think you should fight this guy! :face-icon-small-sho

Wheel House Motorsports · Dec 11, 2017

Teth-Air said:
Very surprised you say this as the Doo is the easiest to ride on concrete snow, well at least on medium slopes as the AXYS requires to be ridden on one ski and when the snow is set up it takes more energy than just steering a Doo around. Maybe you are talking steep hard slopes? Yes in that case I would not want to be on anything but my AXYS. The new Cat feels similar to a slightly heavier AXYS too.

With stock skis, no,the doo pretty much always dead last in about every handling comparison i could make up. As long as the snow isn't crusty, the G4 is the smoothest to roll from edge to edge and can sit there with ease, Low angle sidehills are like cheating on them. But thats where their perks end. The second your line gets steep enough to touch the running board, engage the wobly zig zag sidehill trying to keep it going in 1 direction.

DRIVEBYE said:
I have people say why do you ride a Doo they aren't nimble, same guy that says that says it is to "tippy" after trying it, well to me that is nimble lol. It is never ending over analysis.

Nothing wrong with some changes to make it fit your style or comfort but saying stuff like a stock G4 is not rideable is just BS.

The Doo is by far the most tippy sled, it is SO easy to roll from side to side, problem is, it also likes to come back just as easily. the Axys and cat both take far more effort (still almost none) to initiate a carve or sidehill or whatever. but they stay put and dont try and cut back either.

They are NOT nimble, they ARE tippy. Nimble - like football player able to cut and make agressive lines. Tippy - a big drunk dude wobbling around wherever the terrain steers him. lol

My commentary regarding the G4 not working is, for those people that find it does stupid stuff like wash out on steep side hills is YES, that is how the sled/chassis works and was designed If you don't like a sled that does that, be ready to spend a lot of money undoing ski-doos wobbly sled idea, or swap brands.

DRIVEBYE · Dec 11, 2017

Wheel House Motorsports said:
With stock skis, no,the doo pretty much always dead last in about every handling comparison i could make up. As long as the snow isn't crusty, the G4 is the smoothest to roll from edge to edge and can sit there with ease, Low angle sidehills are like cheating on them. But thats where their perks end. The second your line gets steep enough to touch the running board, engage the wobly zig zag sidehill trying to keep it going in 1 direction.

The Doo is by far the most tippy sled, it is SO easy to roll from side to side, problem is, it also likes to come back just as easily. the Axys and cat both take far more effort (still almost none) to initiate a carve or sidehill or whatever. but they stay put and dont try and cut back either.

They are NOT nimble, they ARE tippy. Nimble - like football player able to cut and make agressive lines. Tippy - a big drunk dude wobbling around wherever the terrain steers him. lol

My commentary regarding the G4 not working is, for those people that find it does stupid stuff like wash out on steep side hills is YES, that is how the sled/chassis works and was designed If you don't like a sled that does that, be ready to spend a lot of money undoing ski-doos wobbly sled idea, or swap brands.

Ok so easiest to roll from side to side is NOT nimble it is drunk tippy. Just want to make sure I have all this straight when it actually snow's.

kidwoo · Dec 11, 2017

Wheel House Motorsports said:
The Doo is by far the most tippy sled, it is SO easy to roll from side to side, problem is, it also likes to come back just as easily. the Axys and cat both take far more effort (still almost none) to initiate a carve or sidehill or whatever. but they stay put and dont try and cut back either.

That's kind of the heart of skidoo vs. cat/Polaris handling design right there.

Polaris/Cat sleds roll with some countersteer whereas doing that with a doo just gets you bruised ribs anything but perfect cold snow. So since you're not countersteering they need to just roll over by leaning. Hence the 36" front and wobble track stuff. That's the only way to turn the things....lean them. But you lose that extra degree of freedom to initiate/maintain with countersteering.

And yeah it's not like you can't lean a cat/Polaris, it's just not the sole method of getting them over, so it hasn't been completely prioritized like doo. But that's also why they keep moving the rider weight forward....leverage over the skis to just lean. Both approaches work just peachy in perfect snow but you lose a lot of handling freedom with the do as soon as you get on harder snow and/or a steeper sidehill.

DRIVEBYE · Dec 11, 2017

I have considered the lock out myself but am concerned I would lose some of the characteristics the sled has now. I have a G4 175 and after the first ride I was softening the shocks to get it to roll over easier. The pic below is from last year on my 15 usually the steepest sidehilling I will do, I have done steeper but it is rare. I would like to know from treethrasher & wheel house etc if this is in the zone where the G4 washes out.

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JJ_0909 · Dec 11, 2017

Chadly said:
So you're saying Dave Norona isn't a very good rider??? He rides bone stock sleds. Dave I think you should fight this guy! :face-icon-small-sho

Lol

I'm sure Dave is a fine rider but I see nothing of him really getting after it in more technical environments.

Wheel House Motorsports · Dec 11, 2017

This is what I mean, if you tried this line on a G4, I got good money that you would ended up replacing some plastic and not giggling.

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10003514 · Dec 11, 2017

Like most have said play around with your foot placement on the running boards, the G4 is a very capable sled, best skidoo has produced. Skidoos need to be rode like skidoos can not bring over cat/axys mentality and expect success.

Chadly · Dec 11, 2017

Any sled could do that... There was nothing controlled about those sidehills...:face-icon-small-dis That's like a guy on a street bike saying he can wheelie when he really can just power wheelie. You didn't hold a single sidehill. You hammered down everytime you lost your sidehill. Stopping and then starting again from the same spot or actually holding a sidehill straight across on a line is what I would call technical.

DRIVEBYE · Dec 11, 2017

Wheel House Motorsports said:
This is what I mean, if you tried this line on a G4, I got good money that you would ended up replacing some plastic and not giggling.

Video can be deceiving but I wouldn't view that as a problem. Like none at all not even a second guess.

rulonjj · Dec 11, 2017

Now that the “experts” from the poo and cat side have given their overqualified opinion, here is some actual experience I’ve had. And no, I don’t need to post other people’s videos to prove my point. Btw, that sidehill was kinda steep, for about 20’. But my 850 would have gone through that with no problem in any way. Doo’s steering isn’t messed up. People that say that are just used to steering the short bus.

To cure the “washout” problem, ride with your foot further back, and buy the lockout washers/spacers. Takes 10 minutes to install and makes the sled much more predictable. It is time for Doo to throw tmotion in the garbage. At least for true Mountain sleds. Also, set your rear springs to the stiffest position and loosen the fts a bit. This will help keep the boards out of the snow and make it so counter steering actually works.

Riding with your foot to far forward throws the 850 off balance imo.

kidwoo · Dec 11, 2017

rulonjj said:
People that say that are just used to steering the short bus.

Well yeah, they fit between the trees and can steer between them on a steep sidehill way better.

#shortbusforlife

Wheel House Motorsports · Dec 11, 2017

rulonjj said:
To cure the “washout” problem, ride with your foot further back, and buy the lockout washers/spacers. Takes 10 minutes to install and makes the sled much more predictable. It is time for Doo to throw tmotion in the garbage. At least for true Mountain sleds. Also, set your rear springs to the stiffest position and loosen the fts a bit. This will help keep the boards out of the snow and make it so counter steering actually works.

Riding with your foot to far forward throws the 850 off balance imo.

Ill stop bashing the chassis:face-icon-small-ton

I think a lot of guys would also benefit from the heavier doo torsion springs. even at the highest setting a 200# rider begins to really overpower the springs and cause excessive transfer. Also, sucking the limiter up one hole some seems to help keep the sled tracking more reasonably and not trying to float the nose and pulling uphill as hard. Im sure on the 175, just a little bit to manage excessive transfer would go a LONG way.

rulonjj · Dec 11, 2017

The rear skid is doo’s biggest downfall imo. And in several ways. It’s way under sprung. And that only makes the tmotion action worse. This is my experience in super steep sidehills. (Over 55 degrees).

I’ll be cutting a sidehill with the nose way high. I’ll be going along just fine until I hit a hard spot under the snow, wether it’s a log, rock or just setup snow, it reacts the same. The side that’s into the hill will twist up, like it’s “supposed to”. But in the process it loads up the torsion spring on that side. And when it hits the limit on the tmotion it snaps the spring and tmotion back to center. That kicks the back of the sled out of the hill and you then either turn straight up hill or it sends you tumbling down the hill.

I’ve never really noticed it on sidehills that are less steep. But after having a torsion delete I can really feel the tmotion on a stock machine and it drives me crazy.

The best mods I’ve done to my 850 is clutching and the tmotion delete and the exit torsion delete. The raptor delete is awesome as well.

Summit74 · Dec 11, 2017

Who has ridden a Gen4 with a 15” wide track? I noticed the guys at ZRP cut down the stock 3” track to 15” wide, basically eliminating the flex edge. Also anyone riding a 15” wide w/ it locked out? How did you like it?

ak · Dec 11, 2017

rulonjj said:
The rear skid is doo’s biggest downfall imo. And in several ways. It’s way under sprung. And that only makes the tmotion action worse. This is my experience in super steep sidehills. (Over 55 degrees).

I’ll be cutting a sidehill with the nose way high. I’ll be going along just fine until I hit a hard spot under the snow, wether it’s a log, rock or just setup snow, it reacts the same. The side that’s into the hill will twist up, like it’s “supposed to”. But in the process it loads up the torsion spring on that side. And when it hits the limit on the tmotion it snaps the spring and tmotion back to center. That kicks the back of the sled out of the hill and you then either turn straight up hill or it sends you tumbling down the hill.

I’ve never really noticed it on sidehills that are less steep. But after having a torsion delete I can really feel the tmotion on a stock machine and it drives me crazy.

The best mods I’ve done to my 850 is clutching and the tmotion delete and the exit torsion delete. The raptor delete is awesome as well.

So your running the washers with the exit coilover setup?

turboless terry · Dec 11, 2017

The g4 needs rode centered up more until it gets steeper. It will turn you into the hill or trees if you ride it wrong foot forward like the axys or cat
When it gets really steep I ride it wrong foot forward. I have never had trouble washing out on the 850. The xm is really bad. I have always rode it like chadly is saying. I know it makes no sense comparing it to everything else. The reason is because the doo already has so much weight forward compared to the others. When you couple that with fatter boards, really wide boards, and then you put your feet in the footwells, they stuff the front end a little and your back end starts going downhill. The xm is awful on this. Moving the motor back on the 850 makes for a real sled for the trees. Just can't ride it like an axys. Either steering is fine. It is the rider and what you are used to. It is a finesse thing not a leverage thing.

rulonjj · Dec 11, 2017

ak said:
So your running the washers with the exit coilover setup?

I was. We just machined some Home made washers last year when no one else was making anything for it. I didn’t like the plastic washers that skinz had. I sold that sled with all the extras on it so I don’t have any pics of it.

I also ran the raptor delete but it’s a lot more money for basically the same thing.

Blk88GT · Dec 12, 2017

I spent some time on an 850 175 last week and didn't experience the same washing out.

I thought it was awesome and other than the traction, I couldn't even tell it was a 175. I'd buy one in a heartbeat!

850 175 washing out on steep sidehills

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