Shock upgrade???
- Thread starter grizzly7
- Start date
F
Raptors
Very happy with my Raptors.
M
I really like the fox qs3 coil over shocks.
If your looking to get rid of your "X" fronts, PM me.
J
While I could spout out some random brand, I'm going to give you some rationale as to what I think works best and why.
Before I get into that, lets start by saying all the aftermarket suspension manufacturers make a good product. They are all very similar from a functional standpoint, at least as far as "how the damper works". They are all IFP based and the damping circuits relatively similar.
That said, I feel strongly Tom's is your best bet, especially with a turbo.
Full disclosure, I work for Tom (I also work for Silber). I came to Tom as a customer first, having boosted my 850 and finding it really hard to control and a handful to toss around as the weight transfer is completely different with a turbo. Tom has the most cost effective way to get the ski lift under control while still keeping the sled fun. To add, he has been custom valving Fox stuff for the better part of a decade, and it shows. His product is *very* different than the off the shelf Fox stuff.
The problem with Ski-Doo is they rely on torsion bars as the rear track shock spring. This is a poor way to control weight transfer, as they have a funky spring curve. This is why Ski-Doo relies so heavily on their limiter strap for transfer (ski lift). Hell, Polaris doesn't even have an adjustable one on their mountain sleds and you never see them really having an issue when it comes to ski lift or popping up on the snow (and if they do, its mitigated through the rear track shock - RTS).
Tom's kit (and yes, Raptor too) deletes the torsion bar. Tom replaces the torsion bar and undervalved Ski-Doo damper with a highly adjustable air sprung custom valved Fox damper. It also gets rid of the poorly tuned FTS for a Fox Float product.
In a turbo application this lets you set your sled up in a way that there isn't excessive weight on the skis (so its not a handful at slow speed) but then when you hammer on it the rear track shock stays solid, keeping you from transferring excessive amounts of weight and lifting the skis. Remember, with the turbo you don't get the same amount of bottom end transfer due to heavier clutching and the plumbing of the turbo.
How does he do this? A progressive spring curve (much easier to accomplish with air). This is the secret sauce and why I chose Tom over any of the other skid upgrades out there.
Combined with a quick-to-collapse front track shock and you've got a sled that pops out of the snow quickly, is super adjustable (you can vary your spring curve with a shock pump) eand lighter than OEM.
As far as ski shocks go, its all about tuning. I won't lie - all the manufacturers offer something good, and so long as they are tuned correctly, you'll be happy.
Before I get into that, lets start by saying all the aftermarket suspension manufacturers make a good product. They are all very similar from a functional standpoint, at least as far as "how the damper works". They are all IFP based and the damping circuits relatively similar.
That said, I feel strongly Tom's is your best bet, especially with a turbo.
Full disclosure, I work for Tom (I also work for Silber). I came to Tom as a customer first, having boosted my 850 and finding it really hard to control and a handful to toss around as the weight transfer is completely different with a turbo. Tom has the most cost effective way to get the ski lift under control while still keeping the sled fun. To add, he has been custom valving Fox stuff for the better part of a decade, and it shows. His product is *very* different than the off the shelf Fox stuff.
The problem with Ski-Doo is they rely on torsion bars as the rear track shock spring. This is a poor way to control weight transfer, as they have a funky spring curve. This is why Ski-Doo relies so heavily on their limiter strap for transfer (ski lift). Hell, Polaris doesn't even have an adjustable one on their mountain sleds and you never see them really having an issue when it comes to ski lift or popping up on the snow (and if they do, its mitigated through the rear track shock - RTS).
Tom's kit (and yes, Raptor too) deletes the torsion bar. Tom replaces the torsion bar and undervalved Ski-Doo damper with a highly adjustable air sprung custom valved Fox damper. It also gets rid of the poorly tuned FTS for a Fox Float product.
In a turbo application this lets you set your sled up in a way that there isn't excessive weight on the skis (so its not a handful at slow speed) but then when you hammer on it the rear track shock stays solid, keeping you from transferring excessive amounts of weight and lifting the skis. Remember, with the turbo you don't get the same amount of bottom end transfer due to heavier clutching and the plumbing of the turbo.
How does he do this? A progressive spring curve (much easier to accomplish with air). This is the secret sauce and why I chose Tom over any of the other skid upgrades out there.
Combined with a quick-to-collapse front track shock and you've got a sled that pops out of the snow quickly, is super adjustable (you can vary your spring curve with a shock pump) eand lighter than OEM.
As far as ski shocks go, its all about tuning. I won't lie - all the manufacturers offer something good, and so long as they are tuned correctly, you'll be happy.
Thanks JJ I have heard a ton of good things about Toms and was definitely going to give him a call, but wanted people to give me there experiences just like you did.
J
Absolutely!
I will tell you from the factory I was pretty underwhelmed with Fox's direct bolt on replacement stuff. Hence why I sought out Tom.
It wasn't awful, but it was just a little better than stock, not some game changing ride.
YMMV.
Well said JJ. I agree that getting rid of the torsion springs is key.
I see that Toms kit uses a billet rear arm but I have not seen the rocker or how it interfaces with the cross shaft. Can you explain what degree of motion toms rear arm has and can it be locked out like the raptor kit? And does his kit use the stock front arm?
Interesting discussion of the progressive curve on the air shocks. My experience with the air shocks vs coil overs is mostly from mountain biking and it used to be that the multi rate springs could provide a better curve and were preferred for over all ride quality. Like the triple rate springs on the raptors that ramp up through the stroke. That seems to be changing in the mountain bike industry too as the air shocks keep evolving and I’ve heard that the latest generation of rear frame air shocks have really taken the lead.
With the Fox shocks how important do you think the cashima coating is in reducing stiction with such a large circumference and surface area of the shaft (at least it’s a lot more than typical mountain bike shocks)? Or with such a heavier machine compared to mountain bike maybe it’s not nearly as noticeable.
This is the first season I did aftermarket shocks all around and I don’t think I can ever go back....huge difference in how the skid performs and when we rack up some serious miles on whooped the heck out trails over the season I think there is just so much less wear and tear on a guys body. I did break my front skid arm at the upper weld earlier in the year and was concerned that the additional forces on the arm from the coil over FTS were at fault but I run almost no preload and super light compression. The I blew the raptor rear arm apart too and I’m beginning to think the 175s just shouldn’t be doing big airs and I need to take it easier on the whoops lol
I see that Toms kit uses a billet rear arm but I have not seen the rocker or how it interfaces with the cross shaft. Can you explain what degree of motion toms rear arm has and can it be locked out like the raptor kit? And does his kit use the stock front arm?
Interesting discussion of the progressive curve on the air shocks. My experience with the air shocks vs coil overs is mostly from mountain biking and it used to be that the multi rate springs could provide a better curve and were preferred for over all ride quality. Like the triple rate springs on the raptors that ramp up through the stroke. That seems to be changing in the mountain bike industry too as the air shocks keep evolving and I’ve heard that the latest generation of rear frame air shocks have really taken the lead.
With the Fox shocks how important do you think the cashima coating is in reducing stiction with such a large circumference and surface area of the shaft (at least it’s a lot more than typical mountain bike shocks)? Or with such a heavier machine compared to mountain bike maybe it’s not nearly as noticeable.
This is the first season I did aftermarket shocks all around and I don’t think I can ever go back....huge difference in how the skid performs and when we rack up some serious miles on whooped the heck out trails over the season I think there is just so much less wear and tear on a guys body. I did break my front skid arm at the upper weld earlier in the year and was concerned that the additional forces on the arm from the coil over FTS were at fault but I run almost no preload and super light compression. The I blew the raptor rear arm apart too and I’m beginning to think the 175s just shouldn’t be doing big airs and I need to take it easier on the whoops lol
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So the tortion delete is the way to go? Looks like there are at least 3 ways of achieving this...
Zbroz Exit.....649 (No FTS)
Raptor Ace...1395 (No FTS)
Toms kit....... ???
Ace
Zbroz Exit.....649 (No FTS)
Raptor Ace...1395 (No FTS)
Toms kit....... ???
Ace
T
I have had air shocks and coil overs, coils are less of a hassle and in my experience and handle better. With the turbo I would get a good coupling skid like the kmod or a baker rear skid. I have a kmod with raptor front shocks and its the best set up I have ever ridden. The kmod is extremely tunable so you can set it up to be playful or plant the skis for big climbs and you can change between the settings extremely fast. I have mine set up to be playful on the lowest coupling setting and it turns into a climbing monster when i turn to max coupling. I’m also not trying to sell you anything....
N
Raptors w ace or Kmod! Best complement the doo! Pm of you need a hook up. Know a guy
J
Tom's kit - $1595-1795 (plus 10% off right now...) depending on which package you go with. I suggest the QSL (L being "lockout" which is really a bit misleading - its really just a "extra firm" setting). Tom's kit also has a FTS to compliment the setup, which is a significant difference when compared to the other options. The two shocks do need to work as a system for best results!
Having a QSL or QS3 shock out back isn't exactly the same as having coupling but it does firm up the compression stroke significantly (when in the "3" or "L" setting). This prevents excessive transfer, just in a totally different way. It is especially helpful in steeper trees when you are in and out of the throttle in a huge way and looking for the sled to stay flat.
As noted above, I do help Tom out, but I did come to him as a customer first (just reiterating that). I chose his system over the others as it really is the only one that can accomplish what I'm looking for at a reasonable price. I have no doubt a K-Mod skid would be awesome too, but it comes at a big price increase.
The Raptor ACE stuff is great, but its far more linear than what I am looking for. This is the big thing I keep harping on, linear spring rate vs progressive spring rate. Linear = spring gets harder to compress in a way that when graphed (force and travel) it looks like a line. Progressive = spring rate gets harder to compress in a more progressive way, in this way it looks like a curve, not a line on a graph.
Tom is making the *only* setup whereby I can pull static weight off the skis for fun/playful handling that doesn't beat me up but then resist over-transfer and bottoming when I get after it. Again, this is a reflection of a progressive spring rate.
This is a big deal with a turbo sled. As I indicated above, a turbo sled doesn't transfer much weight until it builds boost, and transfers the kitchen sink, persay. This is why turbo sleds can feel like a handful, both at slow speed and once spooled up. Ironically, the power curve of a turbo is what you'd call progressive, so you need a skid to match this power curve!!!
With a progressive skid, the skid can be setup super soft off the top (EG, the rear track shock sags a bit pulling weight off the skis mitigating rider fatigue at slow speedd) and then the spring rate progressively gets harder in a big way, so say at 3" of travel the rear track shock spring rate is super high (higher than a linear setup would be at say, 5"), whereas at 1" of travel it is below that of the linear setup even at 0". (making these numbers up for illustration). Ironically, I'm basically making my Doo skid do what the Axys skid does out of the box (but they achieve it in a different way)
This means I can have my sled setup to have about 140 pounds per ski at slow speed/rest, vs 200+ I otherwise need to have with a linear setup that effectively mitigates transfer. This is a huge deal for me.
Tom also has me setup with a very linear FTS (see, air can be setup both - linear or progressive depending on chamber volume/design/neagtive air spring volume/rate), that lets me run my limiter wide open, and then collapse *very* easily to pop me up on the snow. This gives me a flatter track when sidehilling allowing my sled to hold the hill better (preventing washout), and it also gives me more available travel, which is great for keeping me in control in tracked out/"spicy" terrain.
The only other setup that accomplishes this is the Rassmussen RCS setup, which is actually significantly more money, significantly less adjustable and a far less forgiving ride.
Oh, and I should also say, Tom's can be setup to compliment a stocker too. That is the beautify of the system. Its extremely agile and can be applied to a number of applications successfully (most people who buy one do not have a turbo!)
EDIT: Sorry I'm over the top with my explanations. I just know if I were on the other side of the screen, per-say, I'd want to objectively understand why one setup might be better than another. Put another way the "chevy" "ford" "dodge" style answers never did it for me.
J
The billet rocker allows some articulation as does the rear arm. This allows the skid to flex in a slightly different way than T-Motion does, and because of the parallelogram effect does not wash out as easily. That said, you can lock this out.
Kashima coat is a tough one for me to comment on. In the mountain bike world, I think its marketing and bling factor. Tom however *swears* its a big deal. I don't have enough back to back testing to verify this.
That said, I do know the negative air spring design has come a LONG way. Between this advancement and seal improvement, this is why the modern air shock is so dang good and why I get so frustrated when people compare their experiences of old with the modern stuff. Its night and day.
Finally, yes, Tom's kit uses the stock front arm. Oh, and I should add, the rear arm is specifically designed to compliment the spring curve of air. Just something worth mentioning.
can you elaborate or give a bit more on your Kmod experience? No real informative info on the kmod. would be nice to hear some real thoughts about this skid....
Huge fan of Toms. I’ve bought a LOT of stuff from him over the years. Actually this is the first year I bought off the rack stuff from Fox, and the first year I went with spring shocks over air. I’m SUPER happy with the QRS spring shocks on the rear on my 18 175. These use the stock torsion springs. My buddy made the comment(and I know firmly agree) that the stock torsion springs are what really help control the side motion in the t-motion. The rails of these springs are out on the rails and keep the skip from pivoting too much side to side. I think the t-motion “lock-out” washers are a joke. If you think the skid isn’t pivoting because you put a couple delrin(complete joke) or even aluminum washers on the side of that Heim joint you just have to have your buddy get on a rail in the garage while you watch the skid flex. It’s probably stiffening it up some but not much. I’m pretty sure I got the 2018 model tears and I’ve barely touched them after install. I’ve got the RTS on 2 comp and about 12-14 from soft on rebound and the rear torsion on 4. The FTS has 3 turns of preload front touching the perch, that’s pretty soft. I set up the sled for tree riding and it’s working great on the trail whoops too. Which is not usually the case. The rear torsions are going soft but full hard on 5 is a little much. I’m a big guy, 250 in shorts and probably right at 300 ready to ride all geared up. And I have about 20lbs in the sled in snivel gear and tool and first aid stuff.
I believe I got the 2017 QRS3 spring shocks for the front because the valving on these is WAY TO SOFT both ways. I honestly can’t tell he did from 1-3 and 3 isn’t stiff enough. I have the preload set hard. A little over an inch now. Started at 1/2”. I have the rebound set at 22 clicks from full soft which is the same as 2-3 from full hard. I’ve never been this far into the rebound settings on any shock. The base valving sucks. I think I’m going to ditch these and get a set of the RCII 5 way adjustable air shocks for the front. Toms will get these ones over the summer to revalue even if I sell them lol. I was riding every weekend this season so I never had a break to get the shocks sorted out. I did not like riding my 175 with stock shocks. Very frustrating.
I’ve bought 2 complete KMOD skids with raptors and front raptor shocks(2013 Pro, mixed feelings) and an 2013 1100T(awesome on this sled, total game changer) and an rear KMOD upgrade for my 163 XM(mixed feelings). I don’t like the comp only adjustable raptors for ski shocks on the Pro or XM.
Huge Toms fan as I said. I love air shocks;
“How does he do this? A progressive spring curve (much easier to accomplish with air). This is the secret sauce and why I chose Tom over any of the other skid upgrades out there.”
And Toms is THE MAN for those. Do yourself a favor if you are buying shocks. Call him, buy what he recommends, have him help you set up the sled and get it working the way you like. Unless you’ve worked with air shocks before and “get” them follow his advice. At least try it.
I believe I got the 2017 QRS3 spring shocks for the front because the valving on these is WAY TO SOFT both ways. I honestly can’t tell he did from 1-3 and 3 isn’t stiff enough. I have the preload set hard. A little over an inch now. Started at 1/2”. I have the rebound set at 22 clicks from full soft which is the same as 2-3 from full hard. I’ve never been this far into the rebound settings on any shock. The base valving sucks. I think I’m going to ditch these and get a set of the RCII 5 way adjustable air shocks for the front. Toms will get these ones over the summer to revalue even if I sell them lol. I was riding every weekend this season so I never had a break to get the shocks sorted out. I did not like riding my 175 with stock shocks. Very frustrating.
I’ve bought 2 complete KMOD skids with raptors and front raptor shocks(2013 Pro, mixed feelings) and an 2013 1100T(awesome on this sled, total game changer) and an rear KMOD upgrade for my 163 XM(mixed feelings). I don’t like the comp only adjustable raptors for ski shocks on the Pro or XM.
Huge Toms fan as I said. I love air shocks;
“How does he do this? A progressive spring curve (much easier to accomplish with air). This is the secret sauce and why I chose Tom over any of the other skid upgrades out there.”
And Toms is THE MAN for those. Do yourself a favor if you are buying shocks. Call him, buy what he recommends, have him help you set up the sled and get it working the way you like. Unless you’ve worked with air shocks before and “get” them follow his advice. At least try it.
I have Raptor set of fronts with the ACE kit and Raptor FTS on a 154 x 3. After a season on it, I'm very happy. Valving is spot on with these. They do nothing unpredictable, you always know how the machine will react. It's been nice to have the ability to lock or unlock the rear skid depending on conditions or what you want to do that day. I never thought I would. I really thought I would try both locked and unlocked setups, pick one, and roll with it. Instead, if we want to do some really technical riding, I lock it, if we want to pound $hithooks all day in the meadow I unlock it. If I get down to my near sea level elevation on the prairies and want to go cross country I lock it for stability. I like the options.
I also have pretty good experience with Tom's stuff. His stuff also works really well. His customer support is #1..I always come learning something after a conversation with Tom..and usually it's not about snowmobiles! I've had a number of his suspension kits in the past and an equal number of front shock setups and have been happy with all of them. Decided this time around to try something new for the sake of trying something new. I would definitely go consider any of Tom's stuff in the future and would never hesitate to go back.
I did take a bit of a gamble on the Raptor stuff. It was hard to get review info or even much info out of Raptor themselves to be honest. Luckily things turned out well, Dealing with Tom's was the Polar opposite in my experience.
I also have pretty good experience with Tom's stuff. His stuff also works really well. His customer support is #1..I always come learning something after a conversation with Tom..and usually it's not about snowmobiles! I've had a number of his suspension kits in the past and an equal number of front shock setups and have been happy with all of them. Decided this time around to try something new for the sake of trying something new. I would definitely go consider any of Tom's stuff in the future and would never hesitate to go back.
I did take a bit of a gamble on the Raptor stuff. It was hard to get review info or even much info out of Raptor themselves to be honest. Luckily things turned out well, Dealing with Tom's was the Polar opposite in my experience.
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