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Cast Smartcarb?

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mtn-doo

Well-known member
Feb 26, 2004
1,315
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Kalispell, Mt
CATSLEDMAN1, Have you got your APT Smart Carb yet? The delivery frim idle is cleaner than the "simple" efi's. A two stroke will not even smoke at Idle. Literally!... and throttle response is instantaneous. Not the "micro-delay" you get from an injector. Chat with us when you get it. :) It is truly amazing...
 
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mtn-doo

Well-known member
Feb 26, 2004
1,315
661
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Kalispell, Mt
I suppose the claim about 80% less emissions than EFI must only apply to four strokes, because 2 strokes would still be burning oil using the smart carb, correct? While I think EFI in four strokes is overrated, direct injected two strokes are fantastic and I don't think you can get much better than that for emissions and power.

They posted the EPA, "L3" results. The most stringent EPA testing for Asia in a sealed laboratory. Those were done on a two stroke. In a "real world" comparison, a race team who runs a long distance course in Texas claimed they went from 5 gallons for that particular race to 2.5 gallons. The efficiency and "clean burn" is similar to the Direct FI you referred to. Like the e-tech engine.
 
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eskimojoe77

Well-known member
Nov 30, 2011
117
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Order number unknown.

Sorry I don't know what order number I was. I ordered in the early summer I believe. I'm expecting it to arrive carried by a leprechaun on a unicorn since it is so very special. Hope to give my impressions soon, only problem is that all you southern states have been stealing our Alaska snow, so I have nowhere to ride.
 
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portgrinder

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2007
1,161
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83
Edmonton
What does this EPA L3 test look for,
NOx?
UHC?
Did a google search and couldnt find anything. You would think APT would advertise it. Someone pls link me if they have it.

A carb isnt going to prevent short-circuting of fuel out the exhaust. thats where the majority of 2-cycle emmisions come from. DI like the e-tec injects fuel when the combusion chamber is closed and it cant escape. carbs cant do that. They cant stratify a charge either.

Not sure how just the claim of finer atomization will change much. Sure like to see it. especially when the fuel gets 'beat around' quite alot between the carb and the spark plug.
 

CATSLEDMAN1

Well-known member
Premium Member
Nov 27, 2007
2,630
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Missoula, Montana
CATSLEDMAN1, Have you got your APT Smart Carb yet? The delivery frim idle is cleaner than the "simple" efi's. A two stroke will not even smoke at Idle. Literally!... and throttle response is instantaneous. Not the "micro-delay" you get from an injector. Chat with us when you get it. :) It is truly amazing...

no smart carb yet for me, been riding my 4stroke, 250 sitting, just not enough time for more test and tune. have un mounted lectron sitting in box.

NO doubt in my mind the smart carb works better than any mikuni or Keihin. the other flat flat flat slides blew Mikuni and Keihin off the shelf years ago. Power delivery and throttle control with a very thin flat slide can be quite impressive. Glad to hear the smarties are showing themselves.
 
K
Jan 30, 2013
35
3
8
Still waiting on mine... For the past 3 months I've been told "in two weeks". I don't mind waiting, it's just frustrating when each promise is broke. Starting to regret ordering.... Hope it comes before season is over and hope it's as good as they say
 
M

mtn-doo

Well-known member
Feb 26, 2004
1,315
661
113
Kalispell, Mt
What does this EPA L3 test look for,
NOx?
UHC?
Did a google search and couldnt find anything. You would think APT would advertise it. Someone pls link me if they have it.

A carb isnt going to prevent short-circuting of fuel out the exhaust. thats where the majority of 2-cycle emmisions come from. DI like the e-tec injects fuel when the combusion chamber is closed and it cant escape. carbs cant do that. They cant stratify a charge either.

Not sure how just the claim of finer atomization will change much. Sure like to see it. especially when the fuel gets 'beat around' quite alot between the carb and the spark plug.

Hey Joel, Give Corey a call and visit with him about it. They now have an EPA certified test lab for all of the requirements world wide. The results were so clean they were forced to re-caliblate , twice! LOL. No errors. They run similar to the e-tech you mentioned. That is mileage for us all day. APT has a racer in Texas that said for a particular cross country race they do regularly, their fuel consumption went from 5 gallons to 2.5 gallons.

I will call him and ask for a link or test data as well. Thanks
 
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M

mtn-doo

Well-known member
Feb 26, 2004
1,315
661
113
Kalispell, Mt
What does this EPA L3 test look for,
NOx?
UHC?
Did a google search and couldnt find anything. You would think APT would advertise it. Someone pls link me if they have it.

A carb isnt going to prevent short-circuting of fuel out the exhaust. thats where the majority of 2-cycle emmisions come from. DI like the e-tec injects fuel when the combusion chamber is closed and it cant escape. carbs cant do that. They cant stratify a charge either.

Not sure how just the claim of finer atomization will change much. Sure like to see it. especially when the fuel gets 'beat around' quite alot between the carb and the spark plug.


The fuel out the exhaust you refer to is fuel that leaves the combustion chamber without being burned. This is virtually eliminated by increasing surface area of a fixed amount of fuel. Example; In a given "charge" of fuel let's say there are 100 particles of fuel in the simple EFI or conventional carb, like the photo on the right. That is a lot of wet/raw fuel. If you measure the individual area, "surface area" of each particle of fuel, then multiply that times 100 particles, you will get the total surface area of the fuel in that charge. When it is ignited, only the surface of the particle of fuel burns. Not the whole droplet, only it's surface. Then the remainder is pushed out the exhaust. With the Smart Carb's near total atomization, the same charge of fuel, the same amount of fuel, instead of being 100 particles is let's say, 500 particles. Same volume of fuel, only 5X more particles that are 1/5 the size. The photo on the left. Now measure the surface area of one of those particles and multiply it by 500 and you get the "total" surface area of the fuel in that charge. The same amount of fuel as the 100 particles, but 5X more surface area. Now when you ignite that charge, the 5X more surface area is what burns. Nearly a "total" burn of the same amount of fuel. With the increased surface area you don't only get a near total burn but also get a much "hotter" burn. That is a case of more potential energy, "fuel", being converted into kinetic energy, "push". The end result is more HP for a given amount of fuel. "Efficiency", and nearly zero "wasted" fuel.

no gas in your oil, no efi tuner needed.jpg
 
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portgrinder

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2007
1,161
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83
Edmonton
I get what you're saying.

But at bottom dead center and all the ports are open it doesn't matter at all, not one bit how atomized the fuel is. Some is still going straight out the Exhaust. Nothing you can do. Except if you inject fuel when all the ports are closed. Only DI type setup can do this.

Pipes work by pulling a vacum on the cylinder. This sucks out exhaust as well as fresh unburned fuel/air mix into the pipe. That's why a 2 stroke doesn't need an exhaust stroke separated. Fresh fuel is coming in at the same time exhaust is going out. This is the same reason 2 stroke engines have low NOx levels. They recirculate exhaust gas through the cylinder automatically. Exact same as EGR on a diesel engine.

Then as the piston starts going up, some of this mix in the pipe "might" get pushed back in right as the exhaust port closes. "Might". Its all dependent on rpm and when the pipe, porting work in combination. But at most rpms all that fuel that went into the exhaust ain't coming back.

There's been lots of work to limit how much fuel goes out. Look how ports are layed out. A good rear transfer will point right up at the plug to wash out the combustion chamber. All the rest of the ports point back and the idea is to shoot most of the charge along the rear wall. Its called the coanda effect I think. Been a real long time since I was right into it.

I think new stuff is cool. I am just skeptical. Esp when they start talking emissions.
 
P
Nov 28, 2007
1,795
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Yukon Canada
The 80% better emissions can only be based on the emissions of

a carbed 2 stroke. They do not have a carb for 4strokes at this point .

So comparing them to a EFI 4 stroke in emissions is ridicules at best .

In comparison to a regular old 2 banger 80% better maybe.

cheers……..
 
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mtn-doo

Well-known member
Feb 26, 2004
1,315
661
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Kalispell, Mt
There are several CFR 4 stroke Smart Carbs running. They have been for a while now. Several race teams are running them. I will be getting a 42MM for testing in our unique application. I will post all of the progress here.

APT 40MM FCR 450F Replacement.jpg
 
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mtn-doo

Well-known member
Feb 26, 2004
1,315
661
113
Kalispell, Mt
It is not just to replace the 4 stroke carbbed bikes but replace EFI. They are out performing the simple efi's so badly it makes them look pretty bad. Leaner, cleaner, faster throttle response, 10% hp gain, temp and altitude compensating, and 13% better fuel economy. The "simple" open loop efi's we have don't come close. Technology is pretty fun stuff! This pic is the FCR 4 stroke carb replacing an efi unit.

You simply remove the fuel pump and replace with a standard petcock. Unplug your injector and remove the throttle body.

no gas in your oil, no efi tuner needed.jpg APT 40MM FCR 450F Replacement.jpg
 
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CATSLEDMAN1

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Premium Member
Nov 27, 2007
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Missoula, Montana
smart for 4

the smart on a 4 stroke should be an interesting test. All the aftermarket flat slides I have installed, never had the opportunity to test on the 4 strokes.
The question is with the smart, I assume end of accelerator pump ? so can a good lean and clean SMART flat slide over come the s l o w throttle response of a slow reving 4 stroke that usually requires a squirt of gas down the intake to help the engine pickup rpm. In the drag race world you see lots of lectron flat slides on multi cylinder 4 strokes.

10% more power would be huge, would trump cam mods/timing mods/ and almost all pipe mods. 4 stroke power increases are $$$$$$$ and rare.

Hope they set you up with one soooon. Like to hear about it.
 
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mtn-doo

Well-known member
Feb 26, 2004
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661
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Kalispell, Mt
You got it. :) No accelerator pump, and instant, explosive throttle response are the first reports. Yes, 10% HP is beyond any of the usual mod's and a lot of $$$.
 
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coreyd396

Member
Jan 5, 2011
24
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technologyelevatedco.com
What does this EPA L3 test look for,
NOx?
UHC?
Did a google search and couldnt find anything. You would think APT would advertise it. Someone pls link me if they have it.

I believe there is some confusion regarding the emissions validations we are currently conducting, as I have explained them to Randy. The certification testing in question is being conducted on a Zaeta 530 DT four stroke street bike soon to be released in North America. This bike is powered by TM's open enduro race engine and comes equipped with a TMXX flatslide Mikuni Downdraft race carburetor and two catalysts. A fast light off catalyst in the head pipe and a heavily loaded 3-way cat in the pre-muffler. The goal was to achieve on road EPA Tier II and ARB Class I A on road motorcycle emissions certification with just the SC and no precious metal catalysts. What we ultimately wound up with was achieving the much more stringent EURO III emissions numbers (again without catalysts) and Zaeta picked us up as an OEM fuel system supplier for their European bikes as well. This of course has now sparked TM's interest in entering the US off road market with an emissions compliant open class offroad motorcycle. Below are two ECE R40 Class IA motorcycle emission trace tests.

Euro III emissions numbers are:

.8 g/km THC 2.0 g/km CO .15 g/km NOx


CoreysIphone488_zpsb0fab396.jpg


cutaway001_zps857d20ed.jpg


These certified tests show a nearly 80% reduction of HC's and CO across the board and a gain of 11mpg all while achieving EURO III emissions validation. This also shows we are way ahead of current EPA/ARB compliance and the answer to at least one European bike manufactures certification issues with just a 40mm SC. NOx was a little higher than the catalyst equipped system and is typical of high vaporization that creates a hotter burn, but still well within numbers. This may seem like not too big of a deal at first glance but consider there is no tradeoff in sacrificing fuel economy for emissions and eliminating costly catalysts. Did I mention we also saw an over 10% gain in HP? I have the dyno HP chart but it's on the SuperFlow at the lab. I will post it later. We've had to install a heated line needed for our emissions analyzers to complete the 2t emissions work so not able to pull numbers yet What we do know and is widely testified to is that we are making more power with less fuel, no spooge and reports of up to doubling fuel economy at race speeds. We claim a typical gain of 30% in fuel economy while testing and have extrapolated that the emissions reductions should be nearing 50% reductions in HC's and 25-30% in particulates which are normally commensurate to these types of emissions reduction. Less fuel, less pollution. Not to intentionally pull anyone away from here, but 100's of pages of this posted on KTMTalk, GASGas forums and so on with a lot of testimony, good and bad, along with the some of the fuel economy reports I'm referencing here. Anyway we would be happy to discuss this more as we begin those tests.

A carb isnt going to prevent short-circuting of fuel out the exhaust. thats where the majority of 2-cycle emmisions come from. DI like the e-tec injects fuel when the combusion chamber is closed and it cant escape. carbs cant do that. They cant stratify a charge either.
The SmartCarb of course cannot stop the air/fuel charge from short circuiting out the exhaust port.

I believe what's not widely understood is that short circuiting of the air/fuel charge, in a modern crankcase scavenged two stroke, is really a minor part of the overall emissions problem, especially in light of very effective variable exhaust ports/chambers and modern pipe technology. A simple drive by understanding of the amount of power a current high performance two strokes would reveal that they have very very good volumetric efficiency, some stock engines approaching 125-120% VE. These are obviously supercharged efficiencies and are due to sophisticated exhaust systems/power valves. Tuned pipes have been around along time, but modern tuning has broadened the torque output over a much longer curve. Hands down the bigger contributor to hydrocarbon emissions in a current 2t comes from the squish/quench area of the cylinder head, which by design traps large boundary layers of raw fuel. These boundary layers of liquid fuel remain after combustion (also remaining on the piston crown), remaining unburned they eventually find their way out the tailpipe and as such are the primary contributor to high HC release in modern two stroke engines. Engineers often refer to these squish/quench areas as surface area to volume ratios. A conventional modern two stroke squish/quench band comprises nearly 50% of the bore diameter and can contain upwards of 15-20% of the total trapped charge. The area of course is designed to accomplish two objectives.

1) To "squish" the mixture into the combustion chamber as near to the spark plug as it can get; also providing mixture motion to further homogenate the charge for a fast rate of burn, this is he reason we have set squish velocities we strive for when changing stroke or playing with fuels, compression, etc.

2) More importantly the area serves to trap raw fuel that is utilized to provide combustion control thereby preventing detonation and/or pre-ignition. Known as "quench", this trapped fuel is cooled by the adjacent metal surfaces adheres in layers and avoids combustion. Consequently this fuel winds up going out the exhaust unburned as the engine is operated.

In a Direct Injected engine it's necessary to incorporate both the injector and the spark plug into the cylinder head, requiring the combustion chamber to have a very high surface to volume ratio and in this situation large trapped boundary layers of fuel are again allowed to build, continuing to contribute to high HC emissions even though short-circuiting during the intake cycle was avoided. I'm not saying an E-TEC isn't a two stroke marvel and stratified direct injection is not working. In our world we have to continue to look beyond what is perceived, to what is real and the evidence is there, quench cooling is a problem; agencies no doubt will continue their pursuit of ever more stringent emissions reductions and fuel economy increases must continue, so for sure no stone will be left unturned.

Not sure how just the claim of finer atomization will change much. Sure like to see it. especially when the fuel gets 'beat around' quite alot between the carb and the spark plug.
Not so much beat around as picking up ALOT of heat. Finely atomized fuel (and oil) with a much greater surface area does a better job of wicking heat out of the engine and utilizing this heat to further vaporize the fuel. This is another reason a wet-flow system is appreciably advantageous over a dry flow DFI system. Corey
 
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snowboatboy

New member
Oct 22, 2011
138
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18
Petersburg Ak.
Where are they?

It's been awhile since I've heard anything. I was expecting it to show up at the end of January, but no such luck.:face-icon-small-fro Does anyone have any new info?
 
H
Feb 18, 2011
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24
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British Columbia
So the cast smartcarb is cheaper but produces more power? Why isn't it offered in bigger sizes? Just wondering, would like to try it out on my YZ295. But also am looking at a KX500 and would want to use a 40mm on that. (for a snowbike)
 

summitboy

Well-known member
Premium Member
Nov 26, 2007
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I'd talk to Corey on the 295. I highly doubt he would recommend the 40 rather a 38. JMO
 
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