Timbersled Riot??

Sheetmetalfab said:

So don’t have the rear shock on “wheelie” setting in that situation?

They called the settings “wheelie” , “track” , “lockout”.

It sure seems like between spring Preload and those settings you could find a balanced setup.

(I only know with the 18 aro the lack of ski lift and too much ski pressure was a handling trait pretty hard to cure)

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I want to believe. I imagine I would have it set on “lockout” or “track” for most of our riding but who knows. I guess we just need to try it out and find out if it’s gonna work. If you could set it on “lockout”and it handled like a 120 aro does then it’s a no brainer. Especially at $5400 for the LE package.
Hopefully a lot of us will get some ride time on them soon and we can all stop speculating.

Sheetmetalfab said:

So don’t have the rear shock on “wheelie” setting in that situation?

They called the settings “wheelie” , “track” , “lockout”.

It sure seems like between spring Preload and those settings you could find a balanced setup.

(I only know with the 18 aro the lack of ski lift and too much ski pressure was a handling trait pretty hard to cure)

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So the aro has a 150lb front spring and a 175lb rear spring.

The RIOT has a 280lb front spring and a 80lb rear spring!

You could make any kit wheelie with the spring rates that the riot is using. If that's what you're after. Problem is on the ARO, the qs3 switch does virtually nothing, so you'd be in wheelie mode all the time.

Definitely hoping to get some time on a riot but for now I'm skeptical about it.

teal_210 said:

So the aro has a 150lb front spring and a 175lb rear spring.



The RIOT has a 280lb front spring and a 80lb rear spring!



You could make any kit wheelie with the spring rates that the riot is using. If that's what you're after. Problem is on the ARO, the qs3 switch does virtually nothing, so you'd be in wheelie mode all the time.



Definitely hoping to get some time on a riot but for now I'm skeptical about it.

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Hmm, this raises an interesting point. Though the suspension geometry would be off, how would the old mountain horse skid react to this type of spring combination...poor man's riot?

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needpowder said:

It has the latest yeti ski on it. It will be interesting to see how good the new CMX ski is.

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I am referring to the brand new cmx ski that is not technically out yet. Have heard very good things about it but only time will tell. To be fair same goes for the Riot kit...

teal_210 said:

So the aro has a 150lb front spring and a 175lb rear spring.

The RIOT has a 280lb front spring and a 80lb rear spring!

You could make any kit wheelie with the spring rates that the riot is using. If that's what you're after. Problem is on the ARO, the qs3 switch does virtually nothing, so you'd be in wheelie mode all the time.

Definitely hoping to get some time on a riot but for now I'm skeptical about it.

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The spring rates can be fudged on any older ts to get the front lighter. On my 15 sx I could make it do anything with pressure changes. The reason it might work better on the riot is by having the arm way back on the rails helps keep the front down under throttle. That's why the ezryde was such a good chute climber with boost. The stiffer front spring will keep the ski lighter even going down hill. Only down side I see is it could be weaker than aro and the track might loosen enough to ratchet if the front moves up more than the rear. Unlocked it won't ever be the case but could be a problem if the rear shock is locked stiffer than the front. I built one like it and had to run the track pretty tight or it would ratchet going over hard spring drifts.

So the shock lock-out is only stiffening damping not changing spring rate. It probably won't help much to improve deep pow float. But you may be able to just crank the rear coil on pow days and get enough for a good compromise.

I've been juggling between my wheelie setup and pow setup all season. Because its been so deep this year I keep trying to get it to float better, then the front gets heavy and I go back the other way. Then I get stuck and go back to float mode. The whole time its in float mode I'm thinking this climbs better but isn't as fun.

The worst trait of wheelie mode is not being able to turn when it gets trenched in heavy snow or upside down layers that are softer than the surface. Beyond a 12" trench and it just goes straight. The guys in the videos are taking there feet off the pegs to steer by leaning. That only works in hard snow or blower pow. Heavy snow when it trenches in it will just go straight.

The riot might be good enough that I can stop building my own kits....we will see.

This discussion makes my brain bleed. I like it though.

teal_210 said:

So the aro has a 150lb front spring and a 175lb rear spring.

The RIOT has a 280lb front spring and a 80lb rear spring!

You could make any kit wheelie with the spring rates that the riot is using. If that's what you're after. Problem is on the ARO, the qs3 switch does virtually nothing, so you'd be in wheelie mode all the time.

Definitely hoping to get some time on a riot but for now I'm skeptical about it.

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So true!!!! I can take the rear spring out of a Yeti and have Riot/CMX style performance, but why would I?????

I am a mountain rider and do not want out of control transition, ski lift on high traction climbs. I want presion agility and the ability to thread the needle at will. We ride steep, tight, mountain terrain at high speeds. I do not care for a lot of transition. I want just enough to bring the ski off the ground to jump a creek, but not enough to where I have to move body position and weight on the bike. This is why I have drawn to the Yeti suspension over the years.

That pretty much sums up how a where we ride.

M5

M5- said:

That pretty much sums up how a where we ride.

M5

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The riot will be a great east coast setup where the sport is simply boring,ditch banging machine not a mountain setup,,

The sport needs to grow past the limitations imposed on it by a small number of mountain riders with very specific needs.
The riot does just that.
I never heard anyone on a CMX complain about not being able to control the bike in the conditions you talk about.
I personally am a stand up rider and need a setup much like the riot to ride standing up. Within a short time the discussion will shift to if you are a stand up or sit down rider. The Enduro guys on here are familiar with that concept in the dirt world -- few people would argue that sit down riding affords you better control there. But they used to.Sleds used to be all sit down riding, with the evolution of the new Mountain sleds -- you guessed it -- we ride standing up most of the time.

This is the evolution of our sport, lets not be the ones standing/siting in the way of it.

Lets applaud TS for pushing the boundaries.

tillbuilt said:

So true!!!! I can take the rear spring out of a Yeti and have Riot/CMX style performance, but why would I?????

I am a mountain rider and do not want out of control transition, ski lift on high traction climbs. I want presion agility and the ability to thread the needle at will. We ride steep, tight, mountain terrain at high speeds. I do not care for a lot of transition. I want just enough to bring the ski off the ground to jump a creek, but not enough to where I have to move body position and weight on the bike. This is why I have drawn to the Yeti suspension over the years.

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Completely agree with you!! I was excited about this riot platform and think it will be a great but for my riding style i think it will be a handfull.. was riding yesterday and there were many situations that i had to make it between trees on the steepest sidehills and if i didnt make it i was going into no mans land.. so if theres a chance that the riot will wheelie out and i will hav to sit my ass on the tank then i dnt think its for me! Now im really considering the 129 3in.. i think that will be the best all around for my style.. i think that 3in lug all the way out will reduce the washouts on super steep sidhills! But time will tell once people start riding these new kits!

I think if it handles more like a bike, it’s a win. You can flip a bike (on tires) right over backwards any time you want with incorrect throttle application and body position...so if you are half a rider I’m sure you can deal with that. If you want a longer track unit that keeps the front end down...they already make that anyways. This is a new take to be more fun and playful for those who are looking for that.

Jaynelson said:

I think if it handles more like a bike, it’s a win. You can flip a bike (on tires) right over backwards any time you want with incorrect throttle application and body position...so if you are half a rider I’m sure you can deal with that. If you want a longer track unit that keeps the front end down...they already make that anyways. This is a new take to be more fun and playful for those who are looking for that.

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I don’t know that they can’t be both. Seems like having front and rear spring rates gives a lot of adjustability in that regard. As a mototrax I don’t have that luxury.

I took the rear couplers off my homemade skid yesterday and basically wheelied around all day. Down by the parking lot was spring base and about 6" fresh. It was fine and WAY fun like the riot video looks. As we went up the mountain it got to 2 feet plus blower pow on top of a good base. (best ride all year) Up high the wheelie mode was clearly at a disadvantage. It wouldn't float as good so uphill speed was less. The mototrax with less hp and a 2" paddle passed me evertime it got steep. And I had a 2.5" As predicted anytime the uphill trench got over a foot deep into the firmer heavier snow it wanted to go straight. I could pick lines in trees just fine as long as it wasn't a sharp corner or full on switch back. Switchbacks needed to be downhill sweeping turns. What surprised me was it never got stuck and seemed to have way more go traction from a dead start than the mototrax because the ski was basically in the air and all the weight on the track. It was definately an advantage coming back down the creek with giant sink holes 8 to 10 feet down to the water. I had no fear of it poking a ski through and could wheelie across a downhill hole easily. If it was january again with no base I would have to guess the wheelie mode won't work for many riders and will need to crank the rear coil as stiff as possible. But yesterday it was a tolerable compromise and super fun. The riot looks to be basically what I have been trying to build with all my home built junk.

Just to explain the science for those that care, In soft snow the rails tip forward and back UNEQUAL to the ground, based on forces from the shocks and other mechanics. Obviously a 2 shock timbersled setup is easy to see the front shock makes the front of the rails go down (which causes wheelies) and rear shock makes rear go down (which creates better float and heavy ski pressure). The OPTIMAL Float mode in blower pow is to have EQUAL pressure across the rails. The problem there is that there is 2 more forces under heavy throttle that tip the rails beyond what the springs do. One force is the track pulling up hard on the back of the rails from the angle of the upper wheels. Long tracks have less of this force because of the flatter angle. The other force is from the solid suspension arm pushing down on the rails (NOT the floating arm like on the rear of the aro). The solid arm creates extreme down force to the mounting point of the rail at full throttle. (turbo sleds can break limiter straps from this force) The angle of arm determines how much force it applies.(Long arms have less angle and angle decreases as suspension compresses) The location of the rail mounting point determines weather it will try to lift the front or hold it down (wheelie or float). The first gen TS mounting point was in front of the rail center, the 2016 TS was almost dead center and the riot is behind center. If the math works out the down force of the rearward riot arm might about cancel out the up force of the track pulling up the back of the rails which would be an ideal powder setup IF the spring rates were equal. I predict a riot optional rear spring will be offered for mountain riders someday. Keep in mind I never even rode one yet....Take it for what its worth.

We need on-the-fly air adjustable spring rates for different conditions.

we need some folks to actually ride it and report back in different conditions


PLEASE

Norma Stitz said:

We need on-the-fly air adjustable spring rates for different conditions.

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Fox is already making on the fly handlebar adjustable damping but spring adjusting would probably require air shocks and on board compressor

eric82930 said:

Fox is already making on the fly handlebar adjustable damping but spring adjusting would probably require air shocks and on board compressor

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Could tap into a NOS bottle for pressure or if they were really smart they could make a suspension activated air pump and storage system.
Or even better use an adjustable air bleed system so that each stroke will let off an amount of spring, adjuster on the bars closes a valve a little more, more air stays in shock and gives more spring rate.

eric82930 said:

Fox is already making on the fly handlebar adjustable damping but spring adjusting would probably require air shocks and on board compressor

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My Ducati Multistrada has electronic controlled Ohlins that work awesome, I would think they would work if the price could be reasonable