Water to air intercooler with a garret setup

yamaha_junky626 · Oct 20, 2010

has anybody tried hm turbos water to air intercooler setup for there garret setup. just wondering what it would do to throttle response, i would guess that you would have a litte more lag, but with the colder air would it make up for it. i seen some cat guys were doing there own and they were pretty happy with the results. looking at some post by silber it doesn't sound like performance changes alot. any opinions

bighole1818 · Oct 20, 2010

intercooler kit

HM does offer a inter-cooler kit that includes most of what you would need to do exactly that. In consept it would work the same as on an HM kit, cold dense air = lots of power.

yamaha_junky626 · Oct 23, 2010

intercooler

will it affect my throttle respone much with an intercooler

whittaker727 · Nov 1, 2010

Twisted Kit's also offer this too.

MDiver · Nov 1, 2010

whittaker727 said:
Twisted Kit's also offer this too.

There are some differences between the two. It is my understanding that the HM kit has a seperate coolant system that is pumped by an electric pump to a dedicated cooler, and the twisted turbo ties into the factory coolant system, feeding the return coolant to the intercooler before being pumped through the engine.

I may be wrong, so feel free to correct me.

As a side note what does everyone think of these two different ideas? Will the standalone system provide colder coolant to the intercooler, resulting in a greater reduction of charge temps? But will the factory coolant system provide more consistant coolant temps, resulting in easier tunability as the charge temp will not fluctuate as much?

Interested to hear everyones thoughts.

R_8_N · Nov 1, 2010

MDiver. I run the HM kit. You are correct about it having a stand alone cooler and single water pump just for the intake. I look at it like cold air makes more power. if i can get colder water to the box thats only gonna make the air temps colder....right? Tuning this kit is simple. once or twice a day with the box is all. I dout that the 2 different systems would have much difference in tuning due to the air box temps.....just ones gonna make a little cooler temp.

I like having it isolated from the engine cooling. If for some reason the airbox got a hole in it and started pumping water in your engine you have a switch to shut down the water pump. sure your probably gonna have some issues but you would still probably be able to ride it out without pumping all your engine coolant into your intake. Another thing i just thought about too is....If you wanna put a top end on your sled you dont have to drain out all your coolant for the airbox too. One less mess and step to think about!

thats my thoughts...

Radski30 · Nov 1, 2010

whittaker727 said:
Twisted Kit's also offer this too.

What? Twisted kits now have a Air to Water Intercooler? That is totally against the culture and belief system of the twisted nation. I just can't believe that.

I do know that the Welder had one on his sled at fairview last year and just could not get it to run.

Also, everyone should know that the air to water will soon go away for kit builders. I heard through the grapevine, that Polaris holds a patent pending certificate on the Air to Water system with a heat exchanger combo for snowmobile applications. They are putting it together for their new four stroke system. But make no mistake, that polaris aims to enforce this patent. Of coarse, this is all hear say, but was told that it was documented and in the process.

I guess we will see.

Radski30 · Nov 1, 2010

BTW, I have one on my M7. And it really makes a big difference. HP gains all the way to more boost pressure. I think that if a Air to Air is set up right it can work the same way. I have heard of some for the polaris app, cut two holes in the bulkhead to the tunnel, and mount the air to air right under the gas tank. It allows constant snow to hit it and works as well if not better than a air to water. No Pumps, and the IC doesnt have to be very big. I believe they mount it right where the heat exchanger in the front of the tunnel (AC App).

MDiver · Nov 1, 2010

Radski30 said:
BTW, I have one on my M7. And it really makes a big difference. HP gains all the way to more boost pressure. I think that if a Air to Air is set up right it can work the same way. I have heard of some for the polaris app, cut two holes in the bulkhead to the tunnel, and mount the air to air right under the gas tank. It allows constant snow to hit it and works as well if not better than a air to water. No Pumps, and the IC doesnt have to be very big. I believe they mount it right where the heat exchanger in the front of the tunnel (AC App).

Do you know who is producing/selling these? Are they incorporated into anyones kit?

brycter · Nov 2, 2010

the new pro doesn't have enough cooling imo to run the coolant to air and also the turbo. the only way to do this right is to add another cooler and a divorced system to the mix. but then you have more amps being pulled from the stator and just that much more weight on your sled.

danged if you do, danged if you don't

R_8_N · Nov 2, 2010

brycter said:
the new pro doesn't have enough cooling imo to run the coolant to air and also the turbo. the only way to do this right is to add another cooler and a divorced system to the mix. but then you have more amps being pulled from the stator and just that much more weight on your sled.

danged if you do, danged if you don't

Fastrax built a 700 163 out of a rush this year. Has the HM air to water cooler on it. dry weight is 443lbs. thats turbo'd! doesnt sound like a heavy sled to me. I'm pretty sure he can keep the new 800 pro under 440lbs with a turbo too.

Radski30 · Nov 2, 2010

MDiver said:
Do you know who is producing/selling these? Are they incorporated into anyones kit?

There is not a kit like that available. The individuals who had this set up, done it themselves. It is all custom work. But I will tell you they work very well. Much better than a water to air, because you do not need a pump to pump the coolant. I believe at one time or another, MCX had a cooler under the tunnel, and then the charge tube went from there up to the main air to air in the front of the sled. But the cooler that was mounted under the tunnel had constant snow hitting it, and it did not need any coolant flowing through it. It was the heat exchanger, and intercooler. and it can be as big as the heat exchanger at the front of the sled. (Lengeth and Width). It may need to be thicker/deeper to flow more air. but with constant snow hitting it, it is always cool. With a W to A, it has to pump, and at some point, it the coolant will warm up to a certain constant degree because of the flow speed of the pump. The air to air is as cool as the snow out side, no heat soaking nothing. It just needs to be mounted where the snow can hit it.

mountainhorse · Nov 2, 2010

R_8_N said:
Fastrax built a 700 163 out of a rush this year. Has the HM air to water cooler on it. dry weight is 443lbs. thats turbo'd! doesnt sound like a heavy sled to me. I'm pretty sure he can keep the new 800 pro under 440lbs with a turbo too.

That my friend is not a Pro cooler... but rather a 2009 cooler... much more cooling capacity

R_8_N · Nov 2, 2010

mountainhorse said:
That my friend is not a Pro cooler... but rather a 2009 cooler... much more cooling capacity

are you talkin about the cooler in the tunnel or the air box? explain

R_8_N · Nov 2, 2010

Radski30 said:
There is not a kit like that available. The individuals who had this set up, done it themselves. It is all custom work. But I will tell you they work very well. Much better than a water to air, because you do not need a pump to pump the coolant. I believe at one time or another, MCX had a cooler under the tunnel, and then the charge tube went from there up to the main air to air in the front of the sled. But the cooler that was mounted under the tunnel had constant snow hitting it, and it did not need any coolant flowing through it. It was the heat exchanger, and intercooler. and it can be as big as the heat exchanger at the front of the sled. (Lengeth and Width). It may need to be thicker/deeper to flow more air. but with constant snow hitting it, it is always cool. With a W to A, it has to pump, and at some point, it the coolant will warm up to a certain constant degree because of the flow speed of the pump. The air to air is as cool as the snow out side, no heat soaking nothing. It just needs to be mounted where the snow can hit it.

I always thought the longer the charge tubes the more laggy your sleds gonna be. reason twisted put his turbo right on top of the box?

modsledr · Nov 3, 2010

R_8_N said:
are you talkin about the cooler in the tunnel or the air box? explain

The Fastrax HM Turbo setup uses a Rush bulkhead cooler with a dedicated pump to circulate the coolant and cool the intercooler (what I believe you are refering to as "airbox") to keep the charge air temps cool and constant.

Fastrax is working on an accessory "U" cooler under tunnel to replace the bulkhead cooler for the intercooler. It will still have a separtate pump and be independant of the engine cooling system.

Radski30 · Nov 3, 2010

R_8_N said:
I always thought the longer the charge tubes the more laggy your sleds gonna be. reason twisted put his turbo right on top of the box?

...and I would say: prove it. I know that shorter charge tubes can be a little more friendly, however, once the turbo is spooling, it is already building boost. The issue isn't boost pressure, but rather, exhaust pressure. It takes some time for the air to move through the motor and convert to exhaust. That is why an improperly sized turbo (bigger) can be way more laggy than a smaller sized turbo. I guarantee you that if you put the wrong size of turbo on a twisted sled, his short charge tube theory isn't would not work as planned. I do believe however, a shorter charge tube does shorten up the distance between the turbo and the exhaust. Thus allowing the a/f to convert to exhaust quicker.

I would like to see Shains set up. Sounds unique, so we will see how it works

Fack · Nov 4, 2010

Good point Radski. In order for the turbo to start building pressure it is going to require exhaust pressure. The volume a turbo fills when it starts to spool up and build pressure is actually very small when considering a turbos flow capability. I would have to argue that the heat lost in extra piping required to move the turbo closer to the intake negates the volume gained (or lost). When talking in terms of how fast a sled spools or "lag" I would argue that more volume in the air box and correct plenum design produce better results as far as lag is concerned. This is simply do to the fact that it first takes air to make pressure in the exhaust. If I can create a system that delivers the desired volume of air for a given motor in the most efficient way (fluid dynamics) then I will deliver exhaust pressure faster. When the turbo comes on any reasonable amount of intake volume is going to be filled extremely fast.

As far as air density is concerned, the colder/denser air helps assists this process from all perspectives.

-Fack

yamaha_junky626 · Nov 4, 2010

intercooler

so if i ran an intercooler like this onehttp://www.frozenboost.com/product_info.php?cPath=218&products_id=213&osCsid=d207b4c75de34919a5e7580049391486
and used my turbo air box which has the inlet coming straight up and hooked into the outlet on the left in the picture do you think that would work, or would a person be better of to have the intercooler made right into the air box. from the air to air ones that i've seen they are piped simular to this. i,m guessing its probably more of a try it and find out deal, any reasons it shouldn't work that you can see

yamaha_junky626 · Nov 4, 2010

intercooler

doesn't look like my link worked, but the intercooler i was looking at is the type 13 on www.frozenboost.com

Water to air intercooler with a garret setup

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