If your on the fence about a Pro rmk look at this BS

izzni · Jul 22, 2011

The answer should be that Polaris remaps the ECU so that it is more tolerant to ****ty fuel. However, I get the impression that if they did so their sled would no longer meet the emissions standards. You could say that the emissions standards are the problem, but frankly I'd point my finger at the ****ty design of the motor that forces them to map the sled right to the edge to make it meet the standards. When the EPA sets the emissions standards they set realistic goals in conjunction with the manufacturers, they aren't out to put anyone out of business.

mountainhorse · Jul 22, 2011

Good convo for sure...and not picking a fight... lots of good points here and cool that we can talk about this without cussing at each other!!

But that's exactly what I'm getting at... we do that EVERY DAY.

You really have found 20% ethanol gas near you and used it in your sled anyway?

Are you saying that Suzuki motors are immune to the effects of bad gas or water in the gas?

Cat motors or Doo motors or Polaris motors (or Stihl motors for that matter) just don't run well on crap gas.

I'd be interested in seeing how ALL the brands hold together on over blended ethanol fuel?

The kits are not testing for the existance of ANY ethanol...The engines are designed to run on ethanol enriched fuel. Just rude amounts that beyond what the EPA is asking for. The pumps say 10%, but often that is not what we are getting.

Funny to see the treehuggers in the left state of California don't want the ethanol in the gas.

Rude amounts of ethanol could cause more than fueling issues in a 2 stroke... Since the fuel is mixed with the gas in the engine... lubrication issues come into play and not just on the top end ... but on the Cranks which more than one brand has had issues with. High concentrations of ethanol stetch the compatibility of modern 2 stroke oils.

We both agree that sleds should be compatible with pump fuel, which has changed radically in just the last 2-3 years. But when the blending or storage get out of hand... there are some things that the best engine will have problems with...

I know I'll be looking for a compact water sep filter for my sled this year!

backcountryislife · Jul 22, 2011

mountainhorse said:
You really have found 20% ethanol gas near you and used it in your sled anyway?

I know I'll be looking for a compact water sep filter for my sled this year!

No, I don't test my gas, because I don't have to worry about it.:face-icon-small-win I fill up at little stations in the mtns that have notoriously poor fuel, but it's where I live, not gonna drive to Denver to get gas. I do this, and have no problems (on stock sleds) At the same time, my friends who own pros drive to get avgas (WHY????) to put in their sleds because their dealer told them they needed it.

As for what to do this year... I'll keep riding my M8T, but wishing this motor was in a pro chassis!

Seriously though... what are people supposed to do then? What IS the answer? (btw, installing that water sep will void your warranty... just sayin :becky

INDEEP · Jul 22, 2011

Mountainhorse, we all get that the fuel is crap. But why do the others not have issues running the same fuel? If Polaris is worried about ethonal why have a setting to run without it?

mountainhorse · Jul 22, 2011

Why do the majority of Polaris owners not have a problem with fuel quality on sleds... there have been other issues and I'm not arguing that.

Luck of the draw I guess.

The worst ethanol content that I found was in a high volume Shell station in the Bay Area.... some of the lowest was in the gas in the Tahoe area (all in Cali)

I have only started testing the fuel every fill just this year.

I have had no engine failures running this "Cali moonshine gas" in any of my sleds, but I take good care of my sleds like I would imagine most reading this do.

I'm not worried about my warranty deep in the back country. The warranty will not haul a broken sled out... AND... my sleds loose their warranty when I mod the heck out of them anyway.... This year might just have me riding a stock sled.

I'll be on the new M-8 for a while this year too.

I worry about the gas in all my own and my customers expensive toys.

AKSNOWRIDER · Jul 23, 2011

backcountryislife said:
CO 2.0... you got me thinking about these shots...:becky:

Yeah, of the guys I know that ride pro's... it's 70% failure rate. They took care of them quick, but if they're going to start being more difficult to deal with, then that's going to eliminate the willingness of people to take the chance with them imo.

Poo would be having a much harder time without that there marketing guy you mention... someone's got to find them the fresh meat when other people leave! (I mentioned that I thought "terrain domination" was a great phrase in a meeting once, he told me after that his boss probably thought I was a plant to make him look good because that was his phrase! I had no idea!)

Your 70% failure rate is most likely due to either a crappy dealer or a local issue such as fuel quality...while polaris did have some legit issues(kinked oil feed line, faulty injectors, and even a few damaged engine bearings..)over all, these sleds performed as advertised all season, and considering how many polaris sold last season it shouldnt be surprising that some failed..but I highly doubt that percentage of failures is any worst then any of the other manufacturers...

backcountryislife · Jul 23, 2011

That's just my very unscientific sampling of people I know who bought them.

Of the 8, 6 went down, that's around the country. Only one was local, and that guy drives to buy hi end fuel... so pretty sure his wasn't a fuel issue.

I'll agree there's failures in EVERY motor, but I would have to disagree 100% with someone who claimed that the incident rate was the same from the Polaris 8 to a Cat 8. (on the other hand I don't honestly think it's 70%, that's just my group of friends.)

dmkhnr · Jul 23, 2011

The notion that they are testing for ethanol and denying warranty because of it is BS. The sled comes with an ethanol fuel plug, and the manual instructs to install this plug (a 20 second procedure) if you are using eth fuel. The only reason for a warranty deny would be if you used the non eth plug and had eth fuel in the tank.
I've heard fella's talk about polaris denying warranty because they had clutch vents, or handlebar risers on their sleds. When my new turbo pro seized up, I figured I was on my own for the rebuild, however the local dealer here took care of everything and was happy to do it.

As it stands today, I'm on the fence about what I'm going to do. If my pro sold, I can't say I'd buy another and not because I think it's not a rippin chassis, I'm just not confident with the motor. (I know that polaris would fix anything that goes wrong with it for 4 years). Or the cat who bit me in the rear with a POS 1st year 2007 that ran no better than the competitors 600 class. I'll bet a steak dinner that the 2013 cat will be the best sled they ever built.

By the way, I've got a costco 4 minutes from my house that sells non eth 91

diggerdown · Jul 23, 2011

In Mn., where Polaris is made, all the fuel has ethanol in it. A good share of the states have the same mixture. I know some of our stations mix it in their storage tanks, so we as a consumer have no control over what fuel mix we actually get. I'll bet the lawyers will be the only winnners in this one.

geo · Jul 23, 2011

Are we really taking this Polaris warranty denial serious. As stated above Poo is famous for that.
The engine management systems all have knock sensors and a couple of temp sensors to protect them from "poor fuel" issues. Water in gas only hurts lubrication unless it explodes, then the knock sensor does it's job (like many 800 Cat riders experienced back east in 2011). Those sensors should do their job without the owner having to worry, and they do on the Suzuki 800.
It would take more than a season to start corrosion issues in the injector system unless they are built from substandard material. Injectors are built from pretty corrosion resistant material to take the pressures they run at. Fuel always has some water content and the designers know that.

So that takes us back to lubrication. A 2 stroke needs oil. A point to argue, but more is better (to a point) and has been proven many times on the dyno (ring sealing, etc.).
Modern synthetics lead to lower ratios ('cause of high flash points, that means more goes out the exhaust ports after combustion) but dino-synthetic blends can still be run at higher ratios (my pick).

My take on Poo's problems is their motor is less efficient than the Suzuki which means they need more fuel to make the same HP ( but will never quite get to the same level), which means they need less oil to make the same EPA rating. Doo 800's have had the same issues 'till their latest motor. Both could run a little less fuel and add oil but then the HP war would be lost and the marketing team would cry all night.
The Suzuki 800 can run a little less fuel ( to make good HP) and therefore can add some oil for the same EPA ratings.

Quality of material amd tolerances aside ( nobody can deny the Suzuki is by far the best LOL), Poo could simply tell their customers to turn up the fuel and oil some to save the burn downs and blow-ups, instead of the BS fuel warnings, but then they would be slapped silly and fined by the EPA.

Just like burning more diesel and adding horse piss to have less emissions on modern diesel engines, it's all political BS.

IMHO

WyoBoy1000 · Jul 23, 2011

Like mentioned many times most modded poo's last way longer than the stockers. But in reality most of the failures I've heard this year are from broken cranks and piston skirts, that comes from poor design on the crank and probably the piston too, but any piston will drop a skirt if they are ran with a high egt temp. or coolant temp on a 2 stroke.

I run a additive once in a while called "enzyme" its like a sta-bil for ethonal fuel and I personally think I can tell the difference and can get away with a tiny bit more boost.

I have started running a new oil called SFR, (some have seen the threads about it) which if it works anything like there automotive oils its light years ahead of the competition. So far I like what I am finding.

Maybe polaris should start telling dealers to mod the sleds in the right way and still warranty them. Would prob save them money.

If a cylinder has detonation, then they should check the fuel and I would be fine with it but in my mind I don't want to buy 2 sleds to get through a winter.

knifedge · Jul 23, 2011

--Polaris sleds should come stock with programmable ECU's with full 3d mapping.
Then "aftermarket" could sell a reflash for $80 that offers performance AND reliablity. However, a reflash will not help with excessive piston clearances or quality control.

--If I had a new stock Pro, I would pull the engine and go thru it to make sure it would hold up and then put a fuel control box on it.

--The EPA needs to be regulated, farm and ethanol subsidies need to go away --Vote wisely

WyoBoy1000 · Jul 23, 2011

knifedge said:
--Polaris sleds should come stock with programmable ECU's with full 3d mapping.
Then "aftermarket" could sell a reflash for $80 that offers performance AND reliablity. However, a reflash will not help with excessive piston clearances or quality control.

--If I had a new stock Pro, I would pull the engine and go thru it to make sure it would hold up and then put a fuel control box on it.

--The EPA needs to be regulated, farm and ethanol subsidies need to go away --Vote wisely

Sounds good but in reality poo should just build a real engine, then all that wont be needed.

aksnopro · Jul 23, 2011

all this talk of poo is making it stink in the cat section

Arctic Thunder · Jul 24, 2011

WyoBoy1000 said:
Like mentioned many times most modded poo's last way longer than the stockers.

A small percentage of the sleds are modded compared to the stockers so failure opportunities are a lot higher with the stockers. There's more of them.

But I believe one of the biggest factors for the longer run time on the mod sleds it the guys that run mod sleds are pretty anal about fuel, tuning, etc. So they watch stuff ALOT closer than the stock rider even thinks about. (Typically)

The other thing is if you talk to any turbo guy the first thing they will tell you is "Don't run Ethanol Fuels". So again the mod guys are a step up here again.

One thing that stock, once a month riders need to remember is, the shelf life of ethanol fuels is only 30 days or so. So if you only burn 4-5 gallons out of your 12 gallon tank on the first of the month, then top it off at the end of the month to ride you run the risk of having some bad fuel.

You can't let Ethanol sit.

Personally I have continued to run 10% in my sled. No issues, but I am really starting to rethink this and will probably switch over to 100% dino fuel.

Thunder

backcountryislife · Jul 24, 2011

dmkhnr said:
When my new turbo pro seized up, I figured I was on my own for the rebuild, however the local dealer here took care of everything and was happy to do it.

And you just threw the poor guy under the bus if anyone who matters reads this... OUCH. He went to bat for you, and lied to po about it being modded, and you post it on here....:boxing::boxing::boxing::boxing: No bueno bro.

No MFG warranties modded sleds, PERIOD. Dealers do it from time to time, using common sense, but hopefully we repay that dealer by NOT getting him into trouble!:face-icon-small-sho

winter brew · Jul 25, 2011

Polaris just redesigned their 800 and the fuel programming knowing full well that customers have to run ethanol blended fuel or questionable quality.
They MUST either calibrate for this or call out a specific fuel to be used.

Jeff C · Jul 25, 2011

Guys this is nothing new.........

I had warranty denial back in 1997 after my 1996 XCR blew several motors.

It was a known issue of lack of lubrication to the journals because of slag in the casting and the PTO crank bearing repeatedly failed.

Four days out of warranty my motor blew again..........

"Um, sorry, it is out of warranty"
"Yea but this issue was never fixed and there is a systemic problem with these motors"
"Sorry, but you are out of warranty"

1.5 years after I had my local Polaris dealer rebuild it for the last time, I got a check for $900 from Polaris.

By then I moved on to another manufacturer. To this day that incident still pisses me off and will never go back to Polaris again to purchase a sled.....

mountainhorse · Jul 25, 2011

Jeff,

That was a Fuji motor in your sled 15 years ago.

I'm sure that there all the other brands that have had engine issues since then.

treedocker · Jul 25, 2011

at least polaris is smart enough to design and build there own engine, and they are trying to improve it, cat cant even make one they have to have suzuki do it for them. my pro has 2000 miles on it and it has never had one problem at all.

If your on the fence about a Pro rmk look at this BS

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