Asking for riders' input about winter non-motorized areas

ruffryder · Jun 4, 2010

WMC said:
Thanks for the try Snowest, but I thought the discussion was moving along. You guys' passion is understandable, you did not make me cry yet... (joke)

Believe it or not, the future of snowmobiling in WA, to our knowledge from USFS sources, will involve the type of management that we seek regardless of whether WMC ever existed. Should snowmobile riders enter the discussion (note discussion, pissing matches just look bad to the folks that make the rules)? Maybe you guys should talk about this and try to keep it in your interest as much as possible. Or perhaps you could make some valid points. yes, we have a position that we believe in, we like to explian it. We did not come here to surrender, or cause a fight, but to try to talk in a civil fashion that respects each others' uses.

And Mr Moderator, WMC rides snowmobiles (lame fans, yea) about 40 days per year- to go ski backcountry- and our members skitour from 30 to 100 days per season. Only one of our group is very negative about snowmobiles at all, most of us use them. WMC has never advocated shutting out snowmobiles, nor are we against snowmobiles riding offroad.

Our point is, there is not enough to go around, new snowmobiles perform like never before so we see you guys having fun and getting more and more slopes that we ski. So, we want a share reserved, we only climb at a rate on skis of 100 or 2000 vert per hour, you guys do that in a minute. We are asking for a significant area, but we ask for our share. And this Forest Management will be allocated by USFS anyway, not by WMC.

As it is, Snowest just gave me something for the WMC side to take to USFS.

So, WMC is here inviting you guys to talk, and yes, USFS is following Forums with this discussion so talk like you are talking to USFS for your own interest.

What if, after we get over yelling at each other, we started to understand some things about each other? Even slimmer odds, what if we worked something out to take to USFS together? Dream big?

Quite the different tone out of the committee right now... ha ha

ruffryder · Jun 4, 2010

WMC said:
Dang it, I already emailed USFS that this was closed.

jeez... this is nothing man. You should see me talk to rednecks about health care...

ruffryder · Jun 4, 2010

WMC,

You getting confused with your copy and pasting? Seems you said this already... like a couple of posts ago, and on the other thread "LAME", and probably at TAY too...

WMC · Jun 4, 2010

ruffryder said:
WMC,

You getting confused with your copy and pasting? Seems you said this already... like a couple of posts ago, and on the other thread "LAME", and probably at TAY too...

LOL you need to call me some names again so I will know where I am (joke)

ruffryder · Jun 4, 2010

jeezuz hurly.. You got quite the mouth on you.. I thought your wife was hot? With all that energy and tension you have, it might be better spent on pleasure.....:face-icon-small-sho

ruffryder · Jun 4, 2010

WMC said:
LOL you need to call me some names again so I will know where I am (joke)

Nobody is calling you names...

hurleyboarder21 · Jun 4, 2010

wow it worked

thanks x2

you still can call me..lol

i could tell you about the area in question.....wmc efforts to have it for himself. or herself.. ..the passion some of us ..including wmc have for that area..is understandable i believe many on here have not ridin that area. and many others are blind (lol) to the whole issue at hand.

skiers...some ride the groomed commercial areas... some pay for heli....some pay for snowcat....some ski and shoe on the flatlands...the truly dedicated do whatever they can to get to the HEROIN virgin untouched pow...

the same can be said for sledders....some are happy on the trail...some are happy on a guided trip....some are happy in the normal play areas...
the truly dedicated do whatever they can to get to the HEROIN virgin untouched pow

this is the crux of the fight with wmc

technology has changed for both groups... now we fight over the same areas

problem for the sledders is that we don't really have much of that terrain compaired to the non motorized group. but what we have we can tear up pretty quik!! and what wmc has it takes a bit just to get to.

it is not the sled communities fault that the skiers and non motorized users cannot access the areas they want to due to demographics,technology or boundries. times change get used to it..buy a sled...start a club with a shared snowcat and get permission to use it on forest service land .

but it will be a cold day in leavenworth when i will give up anymore killer riding areas to others who already have the pick of the litter to pristine untouched terrain.

good on you wmc for wanting

and good on me for wanting also

regards
hurly

snowest
growup

WMC · Jun 4, 2010

ruffryder said:
Nobody is calling you names...

Joke, man. all good, now back to message.

ruffryder · Jun 4, 2010

WMC said:
Did you miss the post above quoted here-

Nope I got it and understand it quite well. The WMC realizes that by making the area in their proposal, they will allow for the area to be converted to Wilderness. WMC states that it is likely. Just because you don't want it to happen and don't support it happening, has no bearing due to WMC's acknowledgment of the cause and effect relationship between getting the area deemed non-motorized and getting it turned into Wilderness. It is a two step process (simplification) that you acknowledge. Make the area non-motorized, then make the area Wilderness. You have acknowledge this likely possibility before.

So if the non-motorized area becomes Wilderness, will you then be a proponent of a non-motorized buffer? As you have stated many times before that you are in favor of?

hurleyboarder21 · Jun 4, 2010

somewhere....

a

village

in

minnassotta

or is it michigan

is missing its genious

WMC · Jun 4, 2010

ruffryder said:
Quite the different tone out of the committee right now... ha ha

Ruffy the rest of the "committee"- the WMC Executive- does not want to go on Forums. This poster does meet and talk with the Executive regularly, and the posted message honors what the group decides. But it is one guy writing for WMC.

Who knows, maybe something worthwhile will come out of Forum discussions.

ruffryder · Jun 4, 2010

WMC said:
WMC has never advocated shutting out snowmobiles except in non-motorized areas and also our proposed new areas, nor are we against snowmobiles riding offroad.

I love this comment. We don't advocate shutting out snowmobiles except for where we do... You sir, have a gift!

WMC said:
Our point is, there is not enough to go around, new snowmobiles perform like never before so we see you guys having fun and getting more and more slopes that we ski.

This is just scare tactics, plain and simple. There is tons of land to go around. I have only seen cross country skiers 2 or 3 times in all of my riding in the I-90 area. Up at Baker, I give them a ride up to the higher elevations. When emergencies occur, I offer my sled and services to help. This conflict is a lot smaller then it seems, and is based on few encounters with snowmobilers. A lot of snowmobilers ski, and use to back country ski quite a bit. A lot of the guys I know and ride with acknowledge the work done by non-motorized users, and give them their space. This conflict scare tactics are tiring. Many posters over on TAY and NW hikers have said the same thing, that your accounts of the "opposition" and the "conflict" are disproportionate to what a majority of users see.

WMC said:
What if, after we get over yelling at each other, we started to understand some things about each other? Even slimmer odds, what if we worked something out to take to USFS together? Dream big?

I think over at TAY this was actually going to occur, but it seems best served without the WMC due to the committees in ability to deviate from their set proposal.

edited for sloppy quoting on my part

hurleyboarder21 · Jun 4, 2010

the executive

that is what i call my wife!!!!

lol

94fordguy · Jun 4, 2010

winter brew said:
WMC.....I keep hearing you use the term "incompatible".....I have to be honest, skiers and snowshoers do not bother me a bit!! You guys are more than welcome to tear up the snow right along side me any time you want.
I have been sledding for 38 years in Wa. and I can count on my hands...and a few toes.. the number of skiers I have seen, yet on 2 occasions I can remember we were THANKED by the skiers for making tracks for them.
"Incompatible" as determined by who???

I think you will find this is a far more common feeling than you (WMC) seem to think.

WMC said:
Not sure of the meaning of those quotes. WMC is here in good faith, to allow another user group, with a legitimate use of the Forest, to offer other ideas, comments, proposals, etc. WMC is not here to give grief or disrespect, not looking for approval, we are trying to communicate and hear valid discussion. WMC is told from a few sources that a Team and perhaps an individual was told in USFS to follow the thread at TAY, and it is very possible, actually likely, that USFS will be reading this thread.

Sounds good so far

WMC has stated from the start that we advocate for designated winter non-motorized areas. WMC has stated consistently from the start that outside of designated non-motorized areas (including our proposed new ones, yes) we do not seek to otherwise regulate of eliminate on or off-Road snowmobiling. Any other characterizations of the WMC position are not correct.

Something I would like some clarification on from you... In the eyes of a snowmobiler, What is the difference between the Wilderness and one of your new 'Non-Motorized areas? We are effectively banned from both areas, so how is one more of a compromise than the other? Why not just advocate for full Wilderness status and be done with it?

WMC has solid plans to meet with individuals prominent within the snowmobile community. WSSA has sent a letter in opposition to something, a letter that does not discuss the details of the WMC proposal, and WSSA complained that WMC did not contact the snowmobile users. In fact, WMC has been on TAY from the start
http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing_snowboarding/trip_reports/index.php?topic=16511.0 discussing this in a very public fashion, snowmobile riders were aware and participating from the start with counter-threads posted on snowmobile forums immediately. WMC will point out that WSSA and other snowmobile riders opposed WMC before understanding or considering the proposal or the issues, and WSSA has not made contact with WMC in any fashion even not on the very public TAY Forum discussion. The WMC proposal is entirely in regard to USFS management of areas bordering and outside of Wilderness.

In the scheduled meeting to come, WMC will approach the seemingly impossible task of finding some common ground that could lead to a consensus with snowmobile proponents to present to USFS. In two years, as far as WMC is aware from USFS sources, the USFS across the country may move toward managing snowmobiles in a fashion similar to how motorcycles are now managed. Perhaps what is coming, and per the original Executive Order stating that USFS allow ORVs to be ridden only where Designated, management similarly of snowmobiles will be specific in regard to where on the Forest snowmobiles may be ridden.

Now IS the time for winter Forest users to discuss these issues, to consider, understand, and respect the needs of the other user.

Agreed

WMC agrees that if the impossible is achieved, if snowmobile proponents and winter non-motorized use users can understand the other, and map out areas in compromise over the Forest, not all of the general Forest for one use, then we will all have a better future on the Forest.

The forest is not currently restricted to one use (snowmobiling as you make it sound) it is currently OPEN to ALL FORMS of recreation EXCEPT WHERE MOTORIZED RECREATION IS BANNED. There are NO places in the national forests where non-motorized access is banned, therefore that would represent that 100% of National Forest Land is currently OPEN to snowboarders and Skiers.

WMC believes that we will be meeting with a person prominent in the snowmobile community who will advocate for snowmobile riding but also will consider the issues, the other users, the resources, the need for USFS Management to allocate for each use in winter. Progress can be made only in good-faith discussion where individuals respect the needs of the other users and discuss and debate in a civil manner.

Thanks everyone for the discussion here.

Above are some points I would look forward to a response to.

WMC · Jun 4, 2010

ruffryder said:
Nope I got it and understand it quite well. The WMC realizes that by making the area in their proposal, they will allow for the area to be converted to Wilderness. WMC states that it is likely. Just because you don't want it to happen and don't support it happening, has no bearing due to WMC's acknowledgment of the cause and effect relationship between getting the area deemed non-motorized and getting it turned into Wilderness. It is a two step process (simplification) that you acknowledge. Make the area non-motorized, then make the area Wilderness. You have acknowledge this likely possibility before.

So if the non-motorized area becomes Wilderness, will you then be a proponent of a non-motorized buffer? As you have stated many times before that you are in favor of?

No. If they made that Wilderness down close to the Road, I would oppose that, it has not been discussed by the WMC Executive. This poster dos not have a real understanding of how likely that area is to become Wilderness. More Wilderness is not the answer, it causes problems for recreation aside from snowmobiles. Other than this, I will try to speak for what the group has discussed, thanks.

WMC will be out of here for a while. TAY and NWHikers has lots of discussion about this.

Thank you for the discussion.

ruffryder · Jun 4, 2010

WMC said:
No. If they made that Wilderness down close to the Road, I would oppose that, it has not been discussed by the WMC Executive.

Don't you understand the fact that even though you would oppose it, you would still be facilitating it?

And by poster, you mean, one of the other WMC's? It would be nice for this to be one individual, as maybe that would cut down on the repetitiveness and copy and paste tactics we have seen so far. Just some advice..

diamonddave · Jun 4, 2010

I can't keep up with 2 threads guys.

ruffryder · Jun 4, 2010

hurleyboarder21 said:
somewhere....
a
village
in
minnassotta
or is it michigan
is missing its genious

I am missed all over the place... or were you talking about someone else?

ruffryder · Jun 4, 2010

diamonddave said:
I can't keep up with 2 threads guys.

try adding the 2 other forums... :face-icon-small-sho

diamonddave · Jun 4, 2010

No kidding...took me 30 minutes to catch up with the other thread.

Asking for riders' input about winter non-motorized areas

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