• Don't miss out on all the fun! Register on our forums to post and have added features! Membership levels include a FREE membership tier.

Burn down, question on these pictures, please comment

L

Lank

Member
Nov 26, 2007
141
21
18
54
Wyoming
2005 King Cat Carbed. Less than 1000 miles on sled. Mostly stock. This sled has burned down one time with approximately 400 miles and I believed it was due to cold seize. Put two new jugs, two new pistons with all bearings, rings, gaskets etc...Ran perfectly for 600 miles. Was headed for a ride the other day and had more than ample time to warm up. Less than one mile down the trail at barely medium speeds and burned down the Mag side. I am very interested in your thoughts and opinions. My initial thought was simply too lean but this doesn't really add up. Then it appears that it was a lack of oil on the mag side only since the scoring encompasses the entire piston. Found no obstructions in the main jet but have not completely tore the carbs down. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for the mediocre pics, thanks to cell phone.


Mag-Exhaust side
mag-exhaust2.jpg


Mag piston, intake side
mag-piston-intake.jpg


Mag jug, exhaust port
mag-jug-exhaust.jpg


Mag jug, intake port
mag-jug-intake.jpg


PTO piston, top
pto-top.jpg


Both
Both.jpg
 
S
Dec 20, 2008
93
7
8
44
Bothell, WA
I am sure some of the experts will chime in, but the PTO piston wash looks way too lean to me, and the MAG usually runs hotter.

What is your jetting/alt/temps? Do you stay out of constant midrange RPMS when on the trail?
 
I
Jan 4, 2011
760
136
43
Saskatchewan Canada
Is the PTO walls moist still? It might have been oil starvation if it's dry. But the Mag side looks like a lean out, check your intake boots for any cracks or splits, the crank seal on mag side might be leaking. Turn up your oil pump, and give it more fuel, check your plugs and adjust accordingly. My 04 firecat blew a piston that looks very similar to your melt down, mine was from a lean condition.

Did you sled go like snot before it blew up?
 
L

Lank

Member
Nov 26, 2007
141
21
18
54
Wyoming
Elevations 8500-12500, temps range typically from 15-30 (although it was probably 10 at burndown) main jets are 330's, needles in second slot. According to tables we should be able to run 320's but had the 330's in just to be safe. Have been in colder temps and at lower elevations, just seems a bit puzzling to me.

Yes, PTO walls still oily. Seems like PTO side was getting plenty of fuel and oil. The top of the Mag piston looks like a lean burndown to me, but the walls look like a lack of oil. Wondering about a plugged carb? That could starve that side from both fuel and oil it would seem. I will check the boots, good point.

Thanks guys. Keep the thoughts coming.
 
I
Jan 4, 2011
760
136
43
Saskatchewan Canada
It could also be from frozen lines, did you run any gas line anti freeze? It would give the correct amount of fuel at idle, but it would be like a blocked artery when trying to flow more fuel when you give it more throttle. If its possible, put the sled in a heated shop, de thaw, and put in antifreeze, idle the sled in the shop for a while to get all the wet gas out of the lines before storing outside. Would recommend putting some seafoam through it, may not seem like it would do the trick, but in some conditions it really is surprising what it can do, while other times it does nothing.
 

CATSLEDMAN1

Well-known member
Premium Member
Nov 27, 2007
2,630
1,207
113
75
Missoula, Montana
the ol' 8underd

stock this sled with carbs out of the box are dangerously lean in the low mid range, 30mph speeds in cold weather flat trail no throttle opening moving right along its destroying itself, which day it lets go all temp / gas/ weight related, but she's on the way out. You almost never see the same sleds with efi go, they run rich......same year sled with carbs way way way way way to lean.......oh and they make no power this way anyway.

That's one tough motor, good reason those twin flatslides are racer only equipment these days.

So put it together, and for goodness sakes don't run it like that again with the stock jetting !!. OK.... if you do decide not to change to good jetting and run this way, only give it about 3 minutes of warm up and hammer the crap out of it up a hill or in the deep......it will survive longer.
 

Rixster

Well-known member
Premium Member
Oct 20, 2005
3,781
651
113
47
Springville, UT
Elevations 8500-12500, temps range typically from 15-30 (although it was probably 10 at burndown) main jets are 330's, needles in second slot. According to tables we should be able to run 320's but had the 330's in just to be safe. Have been in colder temps and at lower elevations, just seems a bit puzzling to me.

Yes, PTO walls still oily. Seems like PTO side was getting plenty of fuel and oil. The top of the Mag piston looks like a lean burndown to me, but the walls look like a lack of oil. Wondering about a plugged carb? That could starve that side from both fuel and oil it would seem. I will check the boots, good point.

Thanks guys. Keep the thoughts coming.

If one side is getting oil then both sides are getting oil. The oil is injected into the fuel pump, then it goes to BOTH carbs in a single line. So if on side is 32:1 then the other side is 32:1
Now, if it was a EFI 900 then you can get oil to one side and not the other, the efi 900s have a separate oil line to each jug.
 
L

Lank

Member
Nov 26, 2007
141
21
18
54
Wyoming
If one side is getting oil then both sides are getting oil. The oil is injected into the fuel pump, then it goes to BOTH carbs in a single line. So if on side is 32:1 then the other side is 32:1
These are exactly my thoughts, UNLESS there is something plugged in that side of the carb. The line does T at the carbs.

I am running one size bigger jets than stock suggested. Also it has been fine for two years and about 600 miles. Watched things faily closely and no sign of trouble until now.

As far as a quick warm up and then hammering it in powder or a steep hill, thats a big no no with this sled. Cold seize.

Regarding the frozen lines, that is a remote possibility, but quite slim I think. Sled had been stored in garage overnight and then warmed for probably 10 minutes before running.
 

skibreeze

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Dec 4, 2005
10,463
3,477
113
Colorado Springs
I don't think that it is an oil issue at all. Looks lean, This pic is a lean burndown pic
burndown2005.jpg

burndown2011.jpg

Your piston wash needs to be more like this.
PistonsmufflercrackAarm003.jpg
 

1Mike900

Well-known member
Premium Member
Dec 5, 2007
996
169
43
Bellevue, Wa
Was this the first time out this yr? After rebuild put oil at 100 to 1 in tank. I always do this for the first ride just to make sure something is not clogged. Runs fine with a little more oil in the mix. What oil are you using?

Mike
 

CATSLEDMAN1

Well-known member
Premium Member
Nov 27, 2007
2,630
1,207
113
75
Missoula, Montana
too hotI

I recieved two phone calls this week on burned down king cats with carbs.

One old friend has burned won his 900 3 times, dead stock, its been a spare sled for the last 4 or 5 years, xmas vacation his visiting son riding at 25mph at Lolo pass here in mt. Pistons and jugs are just like your pictures. Since he bought this sled in 04 I have never been able to convince this ex dealer to jet his sled properly. Your piston that did not seize is way way lean. Absolutely no wash. the wash you need on this sled with carbs is nothing like what you might see on a late model efi anything so don't go there. For this old twin to run and have lots of power you need big thumb nail size absolutely dead clean to the aluminum bright piston wash. If you have never been there, you will have no idea how strong this old motor can run. Stock jetting they are barely there.........oink oink.

One of my good pals that I have tuned sleds with for 30 some years called about his neighbors newly aquired king kat big bore union bay way wooped sled. Suposed to be a giant killer. Previsou owner mortgaged the farm for this toy............that didn't impress. One ride around the pasture and Tom called because re recognized that the old girl was scarely lean and wanted to know about what we used to do to make these bullet proof. few hours they put in bigger pilot jets, each step it ran better, threw in a set of new rich xp needles, it starting spitting and burbleing and running so hard the 5 acre pasture was no longer a good testing site, went up to 420 main jets which took the mid range burbble out and the next day had the first faint signs of piston wash. Not a stock 900 but typical of where you have to go to make that old twin sing without choke'n.

No nice piston wash, the engine is slowing dying of too much dry sickly heat.



In my experience you don't have a malfunctioning broken part that's causing your problem. You simply have an incorrectly jetted snowmobile. If you own one of the old cat twins withouth piston wash no matter how far or how long or who used to own it, its headed for the aluminum scrap pile.

this stock lean condition is agrivated by the timing curves that change on this sled as about 1/3 throttle. Clutching, gearing, track, rider habits, snow conditions on the wrong day will will end your engines life. What you don't see is the damage being done in engines like this on the day the thing still lived, just becuase you made it back to the truck doesn't mean its running ok.

Your pictures are likely a snapshot of the end result of a sled going down slowly every day its ridden. Not a pleasant thought.
Worse, there's no one easy answer. Jetting can take time, testing, two steps forward and one step back. No fun for lots of folks especially without resources. Thats why EFI.
 

snailbait

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Nov 24, 2008
259
76
28
53
Utah
When you replaced the cylinders, did you check to see that the base gasket was good and clean, ...properly fitted and lots of copper sealant on it? I had mine go down twice, on an 04 carb, and it turned out to be the base gasket. Looked similar to your pics. Be sure to check that also.
 
A
Dec 4, 2010
153
47
28
Anchorage, AK
Make sure to check your carb boots, they tend to dry out and crack, let air in the wrong side of the carbs.

I;m know help for your jetting specs. In AK we run at 0-3000 feet and high air quality.
 

Devilmanak

Well-known member
Premium Member
Dec 12, 2007
4,982
2,193
113
52
Donnelly, ID
I agree with Catsled, you are probably looking for a problem that is not there. 10 degrees, needles in the 2nd clip, running partial throttle with our screwy ecu settings is asking for trouble. Jet the thing up. Especially that needle clip. I know my 1000 engine requires more fuel than a stocker, but I am running 530 mains at 5-7K feet. When my engine was stock I was running in the 400's with a gutted airbox.
Warmup is critical with these huge pistons, until I had a water temp guage I had no idea how long it takes them to get up to temp. I used to warm them for a minute then let it rip. Which probably explains why I had piston scoring on a motor that I thought was perfect. It takes 5-10 minutes if idle to get it to temp, depending on how cold it was to start.
 

snailbait

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Nov 24, 2008
259
76
28
53
Utah
just curious...are you running a mono head, or individual heads?
Some mono heads are known to warp and it may not be laying flat...possibly leaking coolant into the cylinder...:rant::devil:
 
L

Lank

Member
Nov 26, 2007
141
21
18
54
Wyoming
New base gaskets were installed at last rebuild.
Boots are fine, no cracks.
I know for a fact warm up was not a factor in this burndown.
Individual heads.

I know everything is pointing to a lean burndown, but I am still having a hard time accepting that. I have the identical sled with nearly identical setup and almost 5000 untroubled miles on it. We ride together. Alot. I know this guys habits and how he rides. I know sleds can differ, but I still can't help but think I am missing something more here.

Anyway, thanks for all the help and input guys. You can bet I will be putting bigger mains in it after this! Gotta be the deal I guess.
 

1Mike900

Well-known member
Premium Member
Dec 5, 2007
996
169
43
Bellevue, Wa
Did he gut the airbox and you didn't? What has he done different than you? Running the same oil in them, Jetting the same etc... One have a hood snorkle, the other not? And most of all does he vary the throttle the same as you? Same fuel stop with same gas and grade?

Mike
 
L

Lank

Member
Nov 26, 2007
141
21
18
54
Wyoming
Did he gut the airbox and you didn't? What has he done different than you? Running the same oil in them, Jetting the same etc... One have a hood snorkle, the other not? And most of all does he vary the throttle the same as you? Same fuel stop with same gas and grade?

Mike

Both have gutted airboxes, I bought a 35 gal drum of oil we are both running out of that, jetting is the same, neither has a snorkle, one gas station in town we both stop and buy from, always premium. The only thing that is obviously difficult to identify perfectly is the throttle variation. Of course he is aware of the lean midrange as well and certainly varies the throttle. I would say that 90 percent of the time, if one sled goes, the other goes too. We mostly ride together, same conditions, altitudes, etc...just seems like one burns down and one doesn't.
 
F
Aug 17, 2010
317
23
18
K-Town, BC
I agree with Catsled, you are probably looking for a problem that is not there. 10 degrees, needles in the 2nd clip, running partial throttle with our screwy ecu settings is asking for trouble. Jet the thing up. Especially that needle clip. I know my 1000 engine requires more fuel than a stocker, but I am running 530 mains at 5-7K feet. When my engine was stock I was running in the 400's with a gutted airbox.
Warmup is critical with these huge pistons, until I had a water temp guage I had no idea how long it takes them to get up to temp. I used to warm them for a minute then let it rip. Which probably explains why I had piston scoring on a motor that I thought was perfect. It takes 5-10 minutes if idle to get it to temp, depending on how cold it was to start.

Hmm, I would only warm mine up for 5 min max. This week I let my sled warm up for about 3 mins before getting it off the trailer. Once off I switched it off and got changed into my gear and then started it up again and let it run for about another 3 mins before we took off up the trail. Straight away I could smell it about to overheat. The light never came on but the engine was definetely getting too hot and the scratcher wasnt getting enough ice to the radiator. I stopped and kicked snow up on the radiator and let it sit for a few mins. Took off again and once we got to some fresh snow and I was able to get snow on the coolers it was fine but I think if I let it heat up for more than 5 mins without any cooling it would overheat again. Then again, mine idles around 2500-3000 rpm, not sure if thats normal, ive seen EFI 900's idle much lower, more like 1500-2000 rpm.

This was on a pretty brisk -10C morning at about 500m elevation.
 
Last edited:

CATSLEDMAN1

Well-known member
Premium Member
Nov 27, 2007
2,630
1,207
113
75
Missoula, Montana
now that you have it togher and can run it you can really fix the problem.

1. look at the wash on the pistons............must have or it will burn down again

2. its the low mid and mid range jetting that kills most of these twins, so a bigger main is not the critical jet up step, its more gas with the gas screw, richer needles and move the clip down/ raise the needles up. For sure a couple of steps up on main jet will help.

3. you mention idle, a high idle can well be the result of a small air leak, which can casue low mid siezures. So make sure you have a little slack in the throttle cable, the chokes cables set properly and the carbs are sync'd.
Have at least the stock pilot jets. Good pilot jets, its a one pull starter and might sound a little fat on the bottom...........just right, dead clean sounding in the bottom with this twin and the flat slide mikuni's and you will give up low end power and be slow to rev up.

4. Best warm up on any sled is 2 minutes of idle and a half mile of running at 15mph blipping the throttle, your engine needs to warm up and your clutch's need to warm up as well, wacking the thottle with a warm engine and cold clutch's i way not good.

5. the mystery of " cold seizures " is one of the most shop hyped old wives tails non-sense stories promoted by shops that don't get it. Yes it can happen, with any kind of warm up on the engine and a couple of hundred yards of easy going on a stock sled jetted correctly.........no problem. On all the new efi sleds....just ain't going to happen unless you have some other issue.

6. guys with burned down carbed sleds look to cold seizure because the sled is too lean when:
you take off from the truck at the lowest altitude you'r going to ride all day
you take off at the mouth of a canyon where the air is densest
packed trail, low snow cooling causing a minor heating problem and draggin hyfax under lubricated
and you are going up the canyon climbing from the truck.
1/3 throttle zipping along with lots of cold air reaching the carbs
and if your sled is jetted to really charge up the bowls 2000 ft higher elevation, then at the truck you sled need some gas to survive.

the savy xp guys flip the choke a lot and don't run it hard or ignore that and wonder why the crank goes at 800 miles.

Give the old girl some gas, don't worry what some other guys has in his sled.
No two sled run the same. that's why efi...........makes everyon look good.
 
Premium Features