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any of you guys put your sled on a dyno yet and if so what hp you guys are getting
what hp you guys geting
- Thread starter johnsodo
- Start date
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I've never dynode it but the rule of thumb is 10hp per 1 pound of boost so 3 pounds 30hp 5 pounds 50hp and so on if that helps you at all johnsodo.
i thought 1=10 hp was best case
actually more likely 1=7-8 hp ?
actually more likely 1=7-8 hp ?
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I have heard in low boost aps as hi as 11 and hi boost as low as 7 {do to charging temps} .. like I said just a rule of thumb iv never seen true dyno tests but im sure the test would show different # on the same type of motors on the same boost just do to casting flaws in the ports and the same would go for the turbo it's self IMO. have you ever seen 2 identical sleds but 1 is just hands down faster...ever wonder why? theirs just to many variables to pin the HP down to an exact! so we are stuck with the old rule of thumb you might be spot on wellfed!!!!
This has always been something that surprised me about sledders. They have no problem spending 5-10 grand on big bores, turbos, super chargers... But then they never put it on a dyno to see/confirm what its making.
I wonder how many of the performance shops and turbo companies even have there own Dyno? You use to see kits being sold as "180hp" "230hp" and now they just list how many lbs of boost.
I'm sure some of the kits are more efficient then others when it comes to how much hp per lb of boost.
I wonder how many of the performance shops and turbo companies even have there own Dyno? You use to see kits being sold as "180hp" "230hp" and now they just list how many lbs of boost.
I'm sure some of the kits are more efficient then others when it comes to how much hp per lb of boost.
yeah i've always been interested in straight up dyno
runs on different turbo company kits
my guess is there would talk of tweaking tunes for good numbers and favoritism yada yada
then of corse clutching factors in a huge way
on the hill so........
plus we can still argue who's makes more power this way:face-icon-small-hap
runs on different turbo company kits
my guess is there would talk of tweaking tunes for good numbers and favoritism yada yada
then of corse clutching factors in a huge way
on the hill so........
plus we can still argue who's makes more power this way:face-icon-small-hap
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Hp per pound of boost is highly variable. Displacement, turbo sizing, octane, and intercooler efficiency all greatly affect the output per pound. Wellfed is very close...most 800 cc sleds make 6 to 7 hp per pound, not 10. Most kits run turbos that are too small get into the higher numbers.
Also, be highly skeptical of any company saying they do much better. The truth is most 800 cc setups at 10 psi run anywhere from 210 to 220 hp corrected for elevation. To make in the 240 hp range on an 800 requires around 14 to 15 psi. Really efficient intercooling may reduce that by 1 psi or so to around 13 to 14 psi. Truthfully, for most riders, a real 220 hp sled is a beast.
If you see dyno sheets much better than those numbers they were likely artificially created using excess dyno load or correction factors to show higher numbers. To be honest, horspower is irrelevant. Comparisons must be done on the mountain. There the strongest sled that can put the power into the mountain will prevail.
Also, be highly skeptical of any company saying they do much better. The truth is most 800 cc setups at 10 psi run anywhere from 210 to 220 hp corrected for elevation. To make in the 240 hp range on an 800 requires around 14 to 15 psi. Really efficient intercooling may reduce that by 1 psi or so to around 13 to 14 psi. Truthfully, for most riders, a real 220 hp sled is a beast.
If you see dyno sheets much better than those numbers they were likely artificially created using excess dyno load or correction factors to show higher numbers. To be honest, horspower is irrelevant. Comparisons must be done on the mountain. There the strongest sled that can put the power into the mountain will prevail.
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xpturbo can you elaborate on how a bigger turbo can give you more HP per pound of boost I was under the impression that 1 pound is just that 1 pound and 10 pounds is nothing more or less than 10 pounds and it doesn't matter if it was a big turbo or a small turbo? I think the small turbos we use in sleds are to get rid of the turbo lag of spooling a large turbo but still don't under stand how it makes different HP just speed of spool/boost. any clarification on the subject would be greatly appreciated as I am no pro just an enthusiast and all ways wanting to learn!!
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Air volume=hp 2871 will make more hp than a 2860 on pure air volume. Smaller turbo makes more heat too.
Bigger turbo being more laggy is a myth. Sure you can get to a certain point, but some guys really used to push it. My old 700 had an equivelant of a 3071 on it. It virtually same throttle response as my current set up. The difference is kit builders now, or some are forcing air through instead of letting turbo/motor breath.
Interesting 5 years ago this was a prevalent discussion. Now you see none of it.
Bigger turbo being more laggy is a myth. Sure you can get to a certain point, but some guys really used to push it. My old 700 had an equivelant of a 3071 on it. It virtually same throttle response as my current set up. The difference is kit builders now, or some are forcing air through instead of letting turbo/motor breath.
Interesting 5 years ago this was a prevalent discussion. Now you see none of it.
Anyone got some values on how much air a Borg warner EFR 6258 flows compared to a Garret equivalent? Lets say the 2860 & 2863.
Just curious to know.
Just curious to know.
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I am happy to discuss it in depth, but it is going to be a very long post. Are you sure you want me to somewhat highjack this thread? Also, most people stop posting, and it kills the thread. Let me know. The discussion is much more than compressor maps. I do not want to highjack the original posters intent for this thread.
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Turbobygarrett.com has what your looking for new garrett turbos. You can google search for older turbos like the gtx gen 1s. Borg warner has the compressor maps for the efr turbo. Just type in the turbo and compressor map in google. For example, search for "gtx2863r compressor map" in the search bar. But, dont expect the turbo to make the hp stated for the compressor flow test. That has more to do with shaft speed optimization. Hp is more dependent on turbine specs, not compressor wheel.
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is the air "volume" not limited by the size of the cylinders capacity {well the volume that creates HP}? volume is the amount of air that be pushed right {in cubic inches or what ever measurement you prefer}? don't we get all our HP off turbos do to psi. a NA sled will fill the volume of the cylinders full but to get more HP we charge the volume to a PSI. I run 5 pounds of boost and can move a larger volume of air in to the cylinders by adding more PSI thus moving a larger volume or do I got this all bassackwords!!
as for the size of the turbo you know its ran of the EX gasses and if you don't have enough EX gasses and heat to turn the turbine efficiently it will = a slow spool{lag} and not produce a sufficient boost do to lack of volume. I all ways thought the sizing of a turbo to the engine was critical!! much like the size of the turbine to compressor do to the shaft rpm or am I bassackwords again. no disrespect intended I just don't understand how the volume not psi creates HP and how the sizing of the turbo to the engine makes no difference "to a point"............. and the subject interests me
maybe we did hijack this post and should start a new one!!
sorry johnsodo this is irrelevant to your post ... xpturbo you should start another post where we can pick your brain!!!!
as for the size of the turbo you know its ran of the EX gasses and if you don't have enough EX gasses and heat to turn the turbine efficiently it will = a slow spool{lag} and not produce a sufficient boost do to lack of volume. I all ways thought the sizing of a turbo to the engine was critical!! much like the size of the turbine to compressor do to the shaft rpm or am I bassackwords again. no disrespect intended I just don't understand how the volume not psi creates HP and how the sizing of the turbo to the engine makes no difference "to a point"............. and the subject interests me
maybe we did hijack this post and should start a new one!! sorry johnsodo this is irrelevant to your post ... xpturbo you should start another post where we can pick your brain!!!!
You must look at the turbo system to understand, not only the main function of it, compressing air.
All the air that the turbo compress into the engine has to pass the same turbo true the turbine wheel on its way out again. If you can raise the flow over the turbine wheel, you will raise the flow into the engine also, until a given point.
Exhaust pressure is a big factor in 2s turbo. To high exhaust pressure holds back airflow, since the compressed air always need to force itself into the engine. The higher the exhaust pressure, the more boost you will need to feed into the engine.
All the air that the turbo compress into the engine has to pass the same turbo true the turbine wheel on its way out again. If you can raise the flow over the turbine wheel, you will raise the flow into the engine also, until a given point.
Exhaust pressure is a big factor in 2s turbo. To high exhaust pressure holds back airflow, since the compressed air always need to force itself into the engine. The higher the exhaust pressure, the more boost you will need to feed into the engine.
My thoughts are... who the hell cares? 5-7lbs of boost (190-220ish hp?) seems enough for modern sleds to take you about anywhere except the chutes that people no longer care about.
If someone claimed 230hp on 7lbs and someone else claimed 218, I'd probably buy the better built kit with better customer service rather than the one that claims higher HP. Its just a number that doesnt really matter in my mind, reliability and throttle response are much more important in my mind. Plus they say every dyno is different and everyone loses their mind when numbers are posted "should be higher" "should be lower" "those numbers are fake, my dyno said different". If it makes the arms sore and runs good everyday thats WAY more important than a number thats only good for talkin big in the bar(or on the internets in 2017s case), isnt it?
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You must look at the turbo system to understand, not only the main function of it, compressing air.
All the air that the turbo compress into the engine has to pass the same turbo true the turbine wheel on its way out again. If you can raise the flow over the turbine wheel, you will raise the flow into the engine also, until a given point.
Exhaust pressure is a big factor in 2s turbo. To high exhaust pressure holds back airflow, since the compressed air always need to force itself into the engine. The higher the exhaust pressure, the more boost you will need to feed into the engine. <!-- / message --> <!-- sig --> __________________
2016 SKS 800, 2008 CF8, 2009 RS 600
isent that controlled just as much from the pitch of the turbine as from the "size" of the turbo its self? for instance try to put a turbo off a V8 on a sled then try to put one off a 4 cylinder on. im sure you know where im going the V8 turbo will have trouble spooling until you have a huge amount of boost do to the volume of EX/pressures not being sufficiently matched to the turbine/size of turbo yes it will flow easier but no it will not produce better\more boost. and yes it can go the other way with to small of a turbo but the turbos we get in the new kits no matter what "brand" are matched to our sleds the day of finding a turbo that is just the closest you can find to fit are gone!! I could be wrong but I don't think their is a problem with to much pressure on the turbine and not enough spin that would create lag in spool the same as to big of a turbo and not enough EX to spin it. turbo lag is all but non existent and that's do to properly sizing turbo+turbine+compressor-+EX gasses+CC of combuston/or area that needs charged to PSI is the whole package that is looked at to get a turbo right for an engine. my understanding is its far from 1 size fits all but all that said I still don't understand how more charge volume not psi can create more HP!! the engines volume never changes just the amount of psi you can force in that volume? I understand how the turbo works on a basic and how a turbo is matched to CC size and I believe that part is dun for us {to a point} but how does a bigger turbo produce 10HP pre psi and a smaller one 6-7HP per psi and no spool difference? is the restriction on the EX gasses that dramatic on what the company's are calling a properly sized turbo that's 30 to 40 % gains.... hard to see they left that on the table do to lack sizing the turbo?? the first one to produce 40% more for the same psi would sweep the market.....right?? loving this conversation but we should really start a new thread!! I keep trying not to post but its hard!! sorry again johnsodo.....
<!-- / sig -->
All the air that the turbo compress into the engine has to pass the same turbo true the turbine wheel on its way out again. If you can raise the flow over the turbine wheel, you will raise the flow into the engine also, until a given point.
Exhaust pressure is a big factor in 2s turbo. To high exhaust pressure holds back airflow, since the compressed air always need to force itself into the engine. The higher the exhaust pressure, the more boost you will need to feed into the engine. <!-- / message --> <!-- sig --> __________________
2016 SKS 800, 2008 CF8, 2009 RS 600
isent that controlled just as much from the pitch of the turbine as from the "size" of the turbo its self? for instance try to put a turbo off a V8 on a sled then try to put one off a 4 cylinder on. im sure you know where im going the V8 turbo will have trouble spooling until you have a huge amount of boost do to the volume of EX/pressures not being sufficiently matched to the turbine/size of turbo yes it will flow easier but no it will not produce better\more boost. and yes it can go the other way with to small of a turbo but the turbos we get in the new kits no matter what "brand" are matched to our sleds the day of finding a turbo that is just the closest you can find to fit are gone!! I could be wrong but I don't think their is a problem with to much pressure on the turbine and not enough spin that would create lag in spool the same as to big of a turbo and not enough EX to spin it. turbo lag is all but non existent and that's do to properly sizing turbo+turbine+compressor-+EX gasses+CC of combuston/or area that needs charged to PSI is the whole package that is looked at to get a turbo right for an engine. my understanding is its far from 1 size fits all but all that said I still don't understand how more charge volume not psi can create more HP!! the engines volume never changes just the amount of psi you can force in that volume? I understand how the turbo works on a basic and how a turbo is matched to CC size and I believe that part is dun for us {to a point} but how does a bigger turbo produce 10HP pre psi and a smaller one 6-7HP per psi and no spool difference? is the restriction on the EX gasses that dramatic on what the company's are calling a properly sized turbo that's 30 to 40 % gains.... hard to see they left that on the table do to lack sizing the turbo?? the first one to produce 40% more for the same psi would sweep the market.....right?? loving this conversation but we should really start a new thread!! I keep trying not to post but its hard!! sorry again johnsodo.....
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I just moved to Turbotown this year, so this is very interesting. With a turbo, is the hp the same at all elevations? 180 hp at 1000ft to 180hp at 10000ft. Or is there some loss?
The turbo market has changed a lot in the last 10 years. Like mentioned above, their are for sure ways to make MORE efficient kits then the industry standards of say Silber and Boondocker right now. BUT, the big but, is cost vs performance. It takes significantly more time and energry to dial everything in and get that extra 10% of performance out of the kit while easily doubling testing/development let alone hard part cost. So say a guy could make a kit pumping out the same HP at 5psi as production kits at 7psi but kits are now another $1000. Its just not worth it to the average guy. And for those that want the extra HP, BD and silber both have a water2air intercooler which will make the kit work better for sure, but again, compare kits sold vs base kits and you will see the point.
The market has very clearly show the demand isn't for high end exotic turbo kits making huge HP. Guys, like myself want easy to install, solid HP increases and consistent performance out of their sled. Shoot, 5psi at 10k feet is basically sea level HP. And when your used to a sled making 110-120 HP on the hill all of a sudden 170hp feels like an ANIMAL.
Given the massive gains in performance of the base vehicle the giant power needs are not their. mostly we are looking for ways to get back what nature takes away (plus maybe a little bonus). 7psi at 10k feet all weekend was a blast and I have no practical use for anymore power then that. In technical terrain the sled is borderline out of control, so paying more for a kit that is a little more efficient is really not something I need. And as the market has shown, not what people want either.
The market has very clearly show the demand isn't for high end exotic turbo kits making huge HP. Guys, like myself want easy to install, solid HP increases and consistent performance out of their sled. Shoot, 5psi at 10k feet is basically sea level HP. And when your used to a sled making 110-120 HP on the hill all of a sudden 170hp feels like an ANIMAL.
Given the massive gains in performance of the base vehicle the giant power needs are not their. mostly we are looking for ways to get back what nature takes away (plus maybe a little bonus). 7psi at 10k feet all weekend was a blast and I have no practical use for anymore power then that. In technical terrain the sled is borderline out of control, so paying more for a kit that is a little more efficient is really not something I need. And as the market has shown, not what people want either.
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well said wheel!!
