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CYLINDER HONING UPDATE

Merlin

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Interesting read.....

The desired finish for these Nikasil coated cylinders sounds closer to what you'd expect to see in hydraulic cylinders rather than in an engine application but one certainly can't argue with the results. I just have more questions.

Dan, has something changed with the Nikasil process in the last handful of years that has resulted in a "harder" or "more aggressive" plating requiring this modification to the finishing process or is this simply a progression, albeit an improvement to conventional wisdom?
 

indydan

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Interesting read.....

The desired finish for these Nikasil coated cylinders sounds closer to what you'd expect to see in hydraulic cylinders rather than in an engine application but one certainly can't argue with the results. I just have more questions.

Dan, has something changed with the Nikasil process in the last handful of years that has resulted in a "harder" or "more aggressive" plating requiring this modification to the finishing process or is this simply a progression, albeit an improvement to conventional wisdom?

Great question...... As far as hardness goes, i can"t answer that with a deadly accurate answer but i will say this.

The has been consistency improvements from the plating companies, and there is hardness differences from different companies.

And there are adhesion improvements, one big improvement in adhesion has come from the HG7 process.... Because we get the cylinder so much smoother the rings do not over heat the plating and i never see plating delaminate anymore.

And once thought soft cylinders were improperly honed cylinders that were far to aggressive from the plating company.

The understanding of plated cylinders from my shop has greatly improved and prolong piston life is the result because of it.

we're talking about a 180 degree flip as far as what conventional old cast iron bore thinking is....

A- Imagine that now our plated motors leave the shop with this film of grease on the bores.

B - Start with full synthetic oil ( NO Mineral oil in Polaris EFI motors ) Indy Specialty insists on VES Polaris oil since 2015 right from the start.

C - close to zero ring wear, and close to zero cylinder bore wear after 1000's of miles..... it has been the hard peaks from honing causing lots of problems.

D - Imagine it taking a hour & a 1/2 to hone a Mono cyl properly

E - Imagine - There is no honing abrasives you can buy on a Snap-on truck that will work on plated cylinders, if you touch them you make them worse then there were.

Dan
 

Jay

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Dan you really know how to screw my head up. :face-icon-small-con It's going to take me awhile to think this one thru.
 

Merlin

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Thanks for the info. Dan.

There's a lot of us who are going to have to recalibrate our thought processes for the serviceability of Nikasil'd cylinders.

Simply put, as long as bore "out of roundness", taper, & PTCW clearance are within specs & plating is still in good shape - run it! LOL Having that "good cross-hatch pattern" & the associated roughness no longer applies.......


One more question regarding your recommendation on oil:

The attributes of synthetic oils speak for themselves especially in an injected application where the oil's fluidity at low temperature comes into play & in a "dry" crankcase where there is no fuel for cooling & to act as a solvent to disperse the oil so it can reach all areas requiring lubrication.

But why Polaris VES specifically? Why would any oil with the proper viscosity specs. simply not suffice?


Thanks again,

Glen




The has been consistency improvements from the plating companies, and there is hardness differences from different companies.

And there are adhesion improvements, one big improvement in adhesion has come from the HG7 process.... Because we get the cylinder so much smoother the rings do not over heat the plating and i never see plating delaminate anymore.

And once thought soft cylinders were improperly honed cylinders that were far to aggressive from the plating company.

The understanding of plated cylinders from my shop has greatly improved and prolong piston life is the result because of it.

we're talking about a 180 degree flip as far as what conventional old cast iron bore thinking is....

A- Imagine that now our plated motors leave the shop with this film of grease on the bores.

B - Start with full synthetic oil ( NO Mineral oil in Polaris EFI motors ) Indy Specialty insists on VES Polaris oil since 2015 right from the start.

C - close to zero ring wear, and close to zero cylinder bore wear after 1000's of miles..... it has been the hard peaks from honing causing lots of problems.

D - Imagine it taking a hour & a 1/2 to hone a Mono cyl properly

E - Imagine - There is no honing abrasives you can buy on a Snap-on truck that will work on plated cylinders, if you touch them you make them worse then there were.

Dan
 

indydan

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Sorry Jay ! Trust me these plated cylinders gave me hell for several years till we got things under control.

Merlin..... My big beef against anything but Polaris VES is when the electric oil pump hit the 2015 axys.

I know rental shop that rents a pack Axys RMK and Ski Doo 850's they run Lucus full synthetic in all of them......

Since fall of 2015 they have not lost one Polaris motor.......

With the same oil the ski doo's have been piling up lower Rod bearing.

None of us will ever know what the deal is with that.

Things are not like they use to be....

Technology - bearing to Rod tolerance matched with electric oil pumps and custom factory spec oil packages it's just not worth it anymore to be messing with the factory IMO.

Since Indy Specialty went to HG7 with VES oil the piston life is simply amazing.

Then you remove the fuel from the crankcase it is extremely vital the oil remains very thin when its really cold.

IMO if you have a carbureted sled oil really doesn't matter much.... But cylinder EFI it really matters.

Dan
 

Rich_mountain

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Sorry Jay ! Trust me these plated cylinders gave me hell for several years till we got things under control.

Merlin..... My big beef against anything but Polaris VES is when the electric oil pump hit the 2015 axys.

I know rental shop that rents a pack Axys RMK and Ski Doo 850's they run Lucus full synthetic in all of them......

Since fall of 2015 they have not lost one Polaris motor.......

With the same oil the ski doo's have been piling up lower Rod bearing.

None of us will ever know what the deal is with that.

Things are not like they use to be....

Technology - bearing to Rod tolerance matched with electric oil pumps and custom factory spec oil packages it's just not worth it anymore to be messing with the factory IMO.

Since Indy Specialty went to HG7 with VES oil the piston life is simply amazing.

Then you remove the fuel from the crankcase it is extremely vital the oil remains very thin when its really cold.

IMO if you have a carbureted sled oil really doesn't matter much.... But cylinder EFI it really matters.

Dan


Hey Dan,

Have kind of skimmed through this thread and love the info. I just bought a 2005 Polaris 900 RMK with a seized engine. I got such a good deal, I couldn't pass it up. I got an extra crank case for it also. I have not pulled the engine yet but when I do, it is going to get a complete overhaul. Now trying to keep the price down, what would you recommend on getting the cylinders done? Should I send them in to Indy specialty and get them done? Any guidance would be appreciated. I know a lot of people hate these machines but I think if I can get some of the problems taken care of, this will end up being a nice sled.
 

mattymac

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Dan, Not trying to derail this topic but it has brought up some lubrication questions, Im curious as to the statement about VES Gold.

I remember years ago (in the big block 800 ves days) to stay away from Gold, it was the worst oil with the highest markup in the industry. After doing a dozen or so of your Torque Master motors you told me to open up the oil cap and shake the sled side to side and youll see why... A white ring formed around the outer edge of the oil in the tank. You told me that the VES Gold attracts a lot of moisture, and since were riding in some very wet environments with some massive temperature swings (condensation) It seemed like I would always see surface rust on the cranks on these motors as well, now you seem to be praising the gold?

I think at one point you claimed that warranty would be void if the older BB VES motors were running gold on your TM motors?
 
S

Spaarky

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The difference is the delivery of the fuel and oil. Your not getting oil to the bottom end like you were in the big block.
 

indydan

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Dan, Not trying to derail this topic but it has brought up some lubrication questions, Im curious as to the statement about VES Gold.

I remember years ago (in the big block 800 ves days) to stay away from Gold, it was the worst oil with the highest markup in the industry. After doing a dozen or so of your Torque Master motors you told me to open up the oil cap and shake the sled side to side and youll see why... A white ring formed around the outer edge of the oil in the tank. You told me that the VES Gold attracts a lot of moisture, and since were riding in some very wet environments with some massive temperature swings (condensation) It seemed like I would always see surface rust on the cranks on these motors as well, now you seem to be praising the gold?

I think at one point you claimed that warranty would be void if the older BB VES motors were running gold on your TM motors?

Hey Matty, GLAD YOU BROUGHT THIS UP !

I had to change my stance because in 2011 Polaris Made major change and it took me several years after 2011 to see what was happening.....

First - Polaris has reformulated there factory gold oil, and the foaming & air bubble accumulating characteristics have been addressed.

A few important changes in the POLARIS 2 stroke EFI in 2011 ( CFI-2 ) that has made it vital to use the factory synthetic.... The 2005 900 had only 2 crankcase located injectors, the 2006 model year Polaris went to CFI-4 with 2 injectors in the crankcase & 2 in the cylinders....

2011 model year Polaris went exclusive CFI-2 in all 800 motors, and this came with a staggering amount of problems......and most are a blend of several bad practices added together.
1-.....CFI-2.... No fuel in the case at lower mid-range thru to wide open throttle.
2-.....no fuel in the case makes the importance of very thin oil vital to longevity.... ( no fuel.... means no solvent type component mixed with the injector oil to thin it out so it moves freely in the case and gets throwen on the bores by the crank wheels onto the front of the cylinder bores at start up )
3-.....when you shut a CFI-2 motor off with a case absent of fuel the small amount of ( warm ) oil present that has coated everything with a very thin film now drains to the center case floor in the Rod relief groove.
4-..... At start up the lower Rod O.D. goes by the low spot and grabs a small amount of the accumulated oil and throws a few drops on the front cylinder wall.
5-....over the years of tearing down lots of core motors you notice after removing top-end and slowly rolling the crank over that most often the lower Rod outside edge has got a small amount of oil on it.
6-...... That being said, the cold steel rod/crankshaft has much better results of throwing thin viscosity oil on the bores then it does thick mineral oil.
7-.....Carbed sleds this is not a factor......Polaris Carburated sleds have fuel in the case, and there is a oil injector fitting in each carburetor so the blend comes in from the reed cage and first hits the lower rear piston skirt & front cylinder wall
8-.... CFI motors have the disadvantage of dry cold air coming thru the reed cage ( that's why CFI Motors are so hard on reed pedals ) dry cold reeds move fast and hit harder..... Then wet oil covered reed pedals. Old 70mmx85mm big blocks never needed reed pedals... The exact same bore and stroke in a CFI eats reed pedals. The bottom ends in a CFI run much hotter because of the lack of fuel... ( also the reason the wrist pin bearing turns blue in a CFI 800 ....) old big block the the wrist pin bearing looked like new 10 years later.


I don't know the exact date of the last time Polaris updated the additive package of their Gold oil but it was like they flipped a switch and the rental motors started showing amazing longevity.

Then you add in th fact that cylinder finish has been improving also, which means less wear in low oil start ups.

Matty..... The last big factor that really got me was in late fall 2014 when I got my new AXYS switchback and it had an ( Electric oil pump ) controlled by the ECM. ** At that moment I made the metal adjustment and said th cards are stacked against running anything but factory recommended oil. **

Also a 180 degree turn in my stance is that the new rings made today are rotary ground extremely round & do not need cross hatch to cut them in..... As a matter of fact it's bad for the rings to be cut by to aggressive a cylinder finish.

And synthetic should be used from the beginning..... ( no mineral oil needed )

The Cat 600 really brought home the importance of thin oil..... With their C-tech ( or whatever it's called ) it's like water in a bag ......And I am told It saved that motors life.

As I have mentioned..... The CFI 2 has brought on a steep learning curve.

Dan
 
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Reg2view

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Welcome back, Dan. Great reads, this is why most of us visit these forums.


What have you seen in your customer's motors that used Legend oil - a low(er) pour point, supposedly 100% mineral oil, compared to the new VES Gold?
 
C
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not sure if youre interested... but ill throw this up there.

we have a ton of pistons laying around if you wanted to experiment with. mostly dirtbike pistons, some 4 stroke.

and we do have 2 pistons from a 08 summit. preivous owner only changed one... so its one lightly used wiseco, with one destroyed OEM one with 3000 miles.

prob doesnt interest you, but figured id ask just in case you wanted to fiddle with em..
 
J

jrk

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What have you seen in your customer's motors that used Legend oil - a low(er) pour point said:
I too would be very curious. I've used legend ZX2SR for years and thought it to be the best of both worlds - Very low pour point, mineral oil protection and lubrication and very clean burning. (very little ves residue).
 
B
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I know rental shop that rents a pack Axys RMK and Ski Doo 850's they run Lucus full synthetic in all of them......

Since fall of 2015 they have not lost one Polaris motor.......

With the same oil the ski doo's have been piling up lower Rod bearing.

None of us will ever know what the deal is with that.
Dan

Are the Skidoo 850's piling up rod bearings when using skidoo oil? Are you recommending Polaris oil in the skidoos? I'm really curious if skidoo warrantied the engines that were running Lucas, what oil the rental company now uses in the skidoos & whether or not different oil resolved the crankshaft issue.


Thanks for the post, very interesting.
 
D

DV-ENT

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Welcome back, Dan. Great reads, this is why most of us visit these forums.


What have you seen in your customer's motors that used Legend oil - a low(er) pour point, supposedly 100% mineral oil, compared to the new VES Gold?

I as well would like to know what Dans thoughts were on Legends oil as I and many others are running it, and I have just picked up a 2012 pro with a Boost it turbo and am having the top end rebuilt with a wiseco fix kit. the previous owner ran ves gold and i was planning on running legend oil.
 

LoudHandle

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I as well would like to know what Dans thoughts were on Legends oil as I and many others are running it, and I have just picked up a 2012 pro with a Boost it turbo and am having the top end rebuilt with a wiseco fix kit. the previous owner ran ves gold and i was planning on running legend oil.

IMO;Dan would tell you to re-think the use of Wiseco or any other aftermarket piston regardless of Forged or cast. FWIW
 
D

DV-ENT

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I agree with your assesment and i know Dan would agree, I just wish there were a few more options to the "fix kits" i like the concept and many people around here have used them with great success.
 
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