OVS Timing Retard Filter (TRF)

av8er · Oct 20, 2011

More boost doen't mean more power

your motor is only capable of producing x amount of power on a given octane, you can run 10lbs of boost on 100 octane and you will get around 240 HP, running 12 lbs of boost on 100 octane you will get around 240hp. higher boost will cause more wear and tear on your components but doesn't mean you will get more power output from your sled, race sled builders have been messing with timing for years this is not new technology. thinking that you will produce more HP with added boost is a misconception, especially on Pump gas the Arctic cat m8 Injectors are only capable of producing between 200-210 HP with pump gas whether your at 6 lbs or 9 lbs. If you want more power than that you need to run 4 injectors and higher octane.

1080paul · Oct 20, 2011

av8er said:
your motor is only capable of producing x amount of power on a given octane, you can run 10lbs of boost on 100 octane and you will get around 240 HP, running 12 lbs of boost on 100 octane you will get around 240hp. higher boost will cause more wear and tear on your components but doesn't mean you will get more power output from your sled, race sled builders have been messing with timing for years this is not new technology. thinking that you will produce more HP with added boost is a misconception, especially on Pump gas the Arctic cat Injectors are only capable of producing between 200-210 HP with pump gas whether your at 6 lbs or 9 lbs. If you more power than that you need to run 4 injectors and higher octane.

So your saying my D&D 1200 N/A can only make 200-210hp because I'm using the stock throttle bodies with stock injectors? So is it possible to get more power with a four injector set up??

Will the TRF be of any benefit to this sled? Sometimes I can only find 87 octane.

mynewuseddoo · Oct 20, 2011

av8er said:
your motor is only capable of producing x amount of power on a given octane, you can run 10lbs of boost on 100 octane and you will get around 240 HP, running 12 lbs of boost on 100 octane you will get around 240hp. higher boost will cause more wear and tear on your components but doesn't mean you will get more power output from your sled, race sled builders have been messing with timing for years this is not new technology. thinking that you will produce more HP with added boost is a misconception, especially on Pump gas the Arctic cat Injectors are only capable of producing between 200-210 HP with pump gas whether your at 6 lbs or 9 lbs. If you more power than that you need to run 4 injectors and higher octane.

Umm, 2 extra psi of intake pressure will produce that much more compression and push, on the power stroke, resulting in more power. 12 psi will produce more power than 10 psi. I know this because I have an 09 with stock injectors and 13 psi gave me much more track speed than 10 psi gives me.

backcountryislife · Oct 20, 2011

mynewuseddoo said:
Umm, 2 extra psi of intake pressure will produce that much more compression and push, on the power stroke, resulting in more power. 12 psi will produce more power than 10 psi. I know this because I have an 09 with stock injectors and 13 psi gave me much more track speed than 10 psi gives me.

You've got to remember, BD people think that everyone is like them, and that we all run out of fuel on stock injectors.

I can tell you that my setup will GLADLY give me 15 psi on stock injectors, but OCTANE is my issue, if you drop timing, I can get away with less octane & still ru 15 psi.

As for only making X power on X octane, most people are making X minus y, because they're throwing way more octane at the motor than it needs for that amount of boost.

Av8r... I see where you're going, but you're not taking enough into account, you're making an absolute statement that doesn't really fit into the equation of how most people's setups are used.

av8er · Oct 20, 2011

yes, i forgot to post that I was talking about m8's specifically

obviously a 1200cc big bore will make more HP , I believe the m1000 has a larger fuel rail, and bigger injectors.

mynewuseddoo · Oct 20, 2011

Ahh yes, the BD factor. With their weak PG fuel delivery system lol.

I am going to be running a higher compression head and 12 psi boost this season. I can do this with my stock 09 lower output injectors. I will be changing my injectors out to a set of Siemens higher flow injectors in order to keep my duty cycle a little lower. Just a little experiment with injector size and fuel pressure requirements at a given boost pressure

My friend Realbass, in Russia, uses these injectors on his BD pump gas setup in order to run higher boost (8 psi) at 4000 feet on premium pump gas fuel. You BD pump gassers might want to be taking notes here

Unless the opinions of, "6 psi boost is enough for me", still remain true lol.

bradburck · Oct 21, 2011

Ok. I'll bite. What sized injectors can be used. That is the limiting factor for my bd kit. Duty cycle gets to around 95ish (conditions depending) around 10ish lbs of boost. Injectors seem to be the limiting factor.

The fuel system is the bd cutlets difference? I mean we've got the same injectors. Same turbo size. Would upgrading the fuel pump help the issue? What is the cost of upgraded injectors?

I realize this could all be solved with secondary injectors and a new boonie box, but I'd just like to explore other options.

Just as Caleb said.... It's all about ME!

mynewuseddoo · Oct 21, 2011

Brad, I am traveling back to Canada right now. When I get home I will post the part number for these injectors. If you want, you should get a hold of realbass on here. He ran these on his BD pump gas kit last season and they dropped his injector duty cycle down from 99% to something like 80 or 85% at the same boost pressure. The injectors need a little plastic from the injector body removed in order to fit the deep fuel rail sockets. Not a big deal to do this.

mynewuseddoo · Oct 21, 2011

And yes, upgrading your fuel pump and regulator will help.

JohnnyH · Oct 23, 2011

backcountryislife said:
Good info Travis, thanks.

Ditto on the 2/3 deg option, who/ where would need one vs the other?

What would be the reasoning to buy one over the other?

As a high alt rider, running higher boost, which one would make more sense for me? (cause it's ALL about ME...:face-icon-small-win)

ttt

backcountryislife · Oct 23, 2011

mynewuseddoo said:
And yes, upgrading your fuel pump and regulator will help.

Far as I can tell, that's the difference between our systems. (well... that & the silly BD box that is)

If you talk to OVS, they'll upgrade their PG guys to be able to run higher PSI without adding injectors too, it's not that tough, not sure why bd feels the need to charge people so much more money to get a decent system.

backcountryislife · Oct 24, 2011

TTT...

We could still use a bit of info on application & reasons for 2/3 deg.

Buddy talked to Garr today & didn't seem to get too much info...

Any help here Trav?

I'm ready to order, but just not sure of WHY/ when I'd want the 2 over the 3, or vice versa.

WyoBoy1000 · Oct 24, 2011

av8er said:
your motor is only capable of producing x amount of power on a given octane, you can run 10lbs of boost on 100 octane and you will get around 240 HP, running 12 lbs of boost on 100 octane you will get around 240hp. higher boost will cause more wear and tear on your components but doesn't mean you will get more power output from your sled, race sled builders have been messing with timing for years this is not new technology. thinking that you will produce more HP with added boost is a misconception, especially on Pump gas the Arctic cat m8 Injectors are only capable of producing between 200-210 HP with pump gas whether your at 6 lbs or 9 lbs. If you more power than that you need to run 4 injectors and higher octane.

On a stock motor and stock ecu, octane will limit hp, after so much hp it will deto and thats the limits of the power, but if you retard the timing on top you can increase the power and run the same octane -- to a point. You can only go so far before you start to loose, it is a lot like dropping compression to run more boost. In a boosted application it needs a different compression and timing to obtain max performance, but that depends on your needs.

The powercommander has options to tune timing if used on sport bikes and I have been asking for a long time if they where going to make it so we could use it on a sled, but haven't ever heard anything. Obviously a few others figured it out.

X2 on the diff between 2* or 3*

av8er · Oct 24, 2011

I talked 2 Shain at Twisted about this timing filter

and he told me to save my $80, it would not give me $80 worth of performance for my money, he mentioned no added power, or added HP, it would allow me to add more psi per a given octane , which would more or less give me additional wear and tear by running more psi, before deto, but not more power.He mentioned race sled builders have been playing with timing for years but that the game is limited to things like octane, and fuel injectors, on top of that i've pm'ed OVS three different times for info about the module and their reply has always been very vague. I'm just saying if I want to spend some money to get more power , i'll buy straight race gas for added power power vs a electronic device , that retards the timing on the top end, which is where you need it most, you find yourself trying to climb out of something steep and nasty. I don't want my timing to be retarded and decreasing power when i need it most

av8er · Oct 24, 2011

and another thing WYoboy

why would you sell your 09 HCR Twisted with KmoD, unless your going 2012 Twisted Race Gas with Kmod- once your got boost you can't go backwards

catmanm7 · Oct 24, 2011

Could this just be a conspiracy to get us to spend money? Slightly sarcastic here, but I have been thinking about this... Every manufacturer recommends X amount of boost on X amount of octane. Obviosly they are all different.
If this guy sells a kit and says 10lbs on av gas at 3-6k elevation, and the other guy sells a different kit says 12 lbs on av gas at 3-6k. What if one manufacturer is being conservative on numbers and the other is just trying to put big numbers out there, even if it is pushing the limits of deto. So now this guy sells you this timing retard, and says hey you can get a couple extra psi out of your sled... so basically he took his conservative number and bumped it up a couple points, but with no real performance gain?
What I am trying to say is, what if no one needs this, if it doesnt gain hp then why use it? What if it is just another device to give "us" the consumer the piece of mind that we can run more boost. After all, no one warranties our pistons etc. And how many people have had boost spikes for whatever reason and the motor survived. Just saying it seems odd. Obviously there is more variables in all kits.
This is not directed at anybody....

WyoBoy1000 · Oct 24, 2011

It depends on the kit, it will work on some the way its intended

backcountryislife · Oct 24, 2011

I look at my two sleds... one with a stock ECU, and one with a race dept ECU, and I can see a HUGE difference between what they're capable of. The stocker needs WAY more octane for the same boost, whereas the one that was massaged (timing dropped for one thing) I can run more boost on the same fuel.

If I run them on the same fuel, same PSI, they feel pretty much the same, but if I run them to peak of what they can do, the one with the dropped timing runs about 2 more psi.... and to say that I'm losing power because of the lower timing... well, it sure doesn't feel like that's the case with the skis in the sky!!

In theory you're going to lose SOMETHING from that lost timing... but I just don't see that in our situation.

WyoBoy1000 · Oct 24, 2011

I some what agree, but your sleds (the ones I'm thinking of) the motors are different, the HO has different porting and lighter crank along with a different map, only way to know for sure is when the snow flies and we get to try it and see if it works for us. One thing I know $80 is cheap, I will near try anything for that kind of money.

Pure Logic Tuning · Oct 24, 2011

I have tested the three degree timing retard and it will let you run more boost on the same fuel you have been using. You need to remember The stock injectors will only supply fuel to support X amount of horsepower. There are big differences in boost numbers I can see in the different posts and that is the difference beteween turbo size, exhaust size and restriction and fuel system design. I can not tell you how much boost your specific system will run there are to many vairiables. You will have to do your own testing to see how much you can turn the boost up with the timing retarded on your own sled. The power is not all about boost numbers it comes down to the how efficiently your turbo system functions.

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