A
Polaris - Tiller stepping down. Maybe the company will finally turn around!
- Thread starter AKrider
- Start date
R
Profit wise I think he did turn the company around didn't he? He started in the mid to late 90's and it seems to me the company has gotten a lot more profitable in that time frame and much, much larger. Where have you been, I'm sure you get news in Alaska?
Look at where ATV sales were when he started.
Look at Motorcycles, PWC's, R&D facilities in Wyoming, MN, plants in Iowa etc.
Sleds have gone down due to the market and a few mistakes and most importantly mother nature, not simply from a decesion a ceo makes which of course has to be approved by the board of directors and share holders.
Look at where ATV sales were when he started.
Look at Motorcycles, PWC's, R&D facilities in Wyoming, MN, plants in Iowa etc.
Sleds have gone down due to the market and a few mistakes and most importantly mother nature, not simply from a decesion a ceo makes which of course has to be approved by the board of directors and share holders.
X
I don't think the company needed to turn around when he took over it need to grow. It Grow ATV's increased profit, started a good Motorcycle brand. Meanwhile they pulled out of the PWC market not enough room. Seams like the battle is between Yamaha and Sea-Doo. Where Sea-Doo is profitable. Then dwindling market and no snow and lack to respond quick enough to new technology-IE last to come out with a-arm's they were #1 now I don't know where they stand. (as a CEO you never give up you #1 spot without a fight)
Now the increasing competition with ATV'S and a down economy, It's going to be tough. BRP will now be building there ATV'S in Mexico just like other manufacturing compainies. Profit will increase due to lower cost to build.
If anything whoever is the new CEO his job will be to turn around Polaris to compete on all levels. He's going to have some very tough decisions.
S
I don't think polaris needs to be turned around. They already have. Victory is now profitable, ATV's are very profitable, they are increasing their market share of ALL products they sell, they are working with the military designing new products for their use. Polaris' total sales have increased this year, and I believe last year as well. Their stock prices, until Mr. Tiller announced the decision, was very strong. If you would like an excellent example of a company that needs to be turned around, visit www.arcticcat.com and take a look at their investor relations.
I was watching both AC and PII stock, and at the end of the third quarter, AC was down about 9%, PII was up about 20%.
While Polaris isn't where they would like to be, I think they are in a pretty good position and their market shares will increase, especially as the new sleds continue to prove themselves.
just my .02
I was watching both AC and PII stock, and at the end of the third quarter, AC was down about 9%, PII was up about 20%.
While Polaris isn't where they would like to be, I think they are in a pretty good position and their market shares will increase, especially as the new sleds continue to prove themselves.
just my .02
I suggest you use a different set of tools to watch stock, your's must be broken. Polaris was at $55 in mid Oct and was down to under $39 the day before Tiller made his announcement. That's nearly 30% in the past 3 months or so. And since early 2005 the stock is down from near $80/share.
And Polaris' sales have not increased the last 2 years. In fact, when Mr Tiller took the rains he said that by 2006 they would be a $3Billion company. Last year their total sales were down to $1.7Billion, but through some interesting moves in employee head count and some very interesting use of off-book debt and a very agressive stock buy back program they did have an increase in profit per share. And the dividend, that wonderful dividend is sure nice if you are a stock holder.
No one will argue that Mr. Tiller isn't good at playing the Wall Street game. Unfortunately I don't think that playing the game like he does is good for Polaris.
sled_guy
S
Sorry that I didn't provide my time frame for looking at the stocks... I was looking at the stocks from the summer (july-ish) to the beginning of the 4th quarter. Stocks haven't fallen for the passed three months, they've fallen in the last three weeks, again, related to Mr. Tiller and his decision to resign. Polaris' stock is very undervalued right now in my opinion. Prices might drop a little further, but I'm expecting a rebound within the next few months. It will also be intersting to see what happens when they announce there 07 numbers in the next week or two, which are expected by analysts to be about 6% higher than last year... right around 1.75 b.
And you're right, his goal was 3 billion, now it's 2.2 by 09 i think? That's a pretty big difference, you're right.
But I've got nothing against change- I look forward to it, and my reason for posting isn't to defend Tiller. I don't know much about him. It's more to argue the point that Polaris isn't in dire straits, and in fact, they are positioned pretty well in the industries they compete in, and while they've got a very long ways to go to meet 2.2 by 09, it will be interesting to see what happens.
And I agree with you that the wallstreet games Tiller and associates have been playing are good for stockholders and not necessarily the company or consumer. But I don't know if a CEO exists that will make decisions without the stockholder in mind...Even if the actions are a little "creative".
And you're right, his goal was 3 billion, now it's 2.2 by 09 i think? That's a pretty big difference, you're right.
But I've got nothing against change- I look forward to it, and my reason for posting isn't to defend Tiller. I don't know much about him. It's more to argue the point that Polaris isn't in dire straits, and in fact, they are positioned pretty well in the industries they compete in, and while they've got a very long ways to go to meet 2.2 by 09, it will be interesting to see what happens.
And I agree with you that the wallstreet games Tiller and associates have been playing are good for stockholders and not necessarily the company or consumer. But I don't know if a CEO exists that will make decisions without the stockholder in mind...Even if the actions are a little "creative".
The stock Market is gay. The sleds rip. That's what I care about
H
with the selection of a good ceo that the market trusts the price will rebound to at or before levels of when the rumor of tiller stepping down spread, all stocks drop when a ceo that was trusted leaves,or when they find out he is crooked
R
My thoughts exactly.
As for the stock market, funny sled_guy picked a time when the market was on it's down hill run. Just seen it on world news this past weekend. Since the highs in October what company hasn't been down? A lot of them.
I don't care what "wall street" says they have done pretty darn good with what they have had to work with. They got rid of the stuff that wasn't good, and focused on things that were. Well they had a little lapse in 05-06 with the sleds but they are doing just fine right now in that department.
Did someone bring up A-arms? You got to be kidding me, if you think for one minute that had anything to do with Polaris as a whole company you my friend are one misinformed "indy"vidual!
I
Maybe the new guy will make a iqr styled mtn sled..... cmon.... just doooit !
I
He was no Hall Wendle....the man before him....he turned a Mom and pop company into a cold corporate business....maybe it was needed?
S
P
I am actually applauding Tiller's ouster. Don't get me wrong. I bleed polaris, but, what is good for the investor is not always good for the consumer...and I am not so sure Tiller's work is all that impressive.
When he took over polaris was number 1 in ATV and snowmobile sales. Now polaris is neither. Sure stock price went up...but so did the cost of my radius rods and water pump belts...back in 96 rods were 6 bucks now they are over 20 (over 300% inflation) belts went from 5 bucks to 41...Sure they added a plastic bag and instructions...but that is over 800% inflation in 10 yrs...These great ideas transformed many a polaris rider into a skidoo rider. Now take into account the DISMAL failure of the 900 RMK. I am absolutely certain it is a direct result of squeezing R&D and manufacturing with unrealistic schedules and resources. Polaris at one time had a fairly reasonable quality reputation. I believe they are the industy laughing stock...except for maybe Ski-doo. But clealy with the introduction of the Rev in 2005?, Doo is at least pushing technology and I would expect bugs. Polaris had really brought nothing to the table in a decade.
Polaris went from a company run by sports enthusiasts to a company run by bean counters. Now that is all good and well for light bulbs and toasters. But OHV and snowmobile sales are driven by excitement, innovation, and value. Lets face it. A-arms where pioneered by Cat years ago and the polaris chassis is still within a few pounds of the edge. I have no idea what they were thinking with the 900...it was even introduced too late for a carb version...
Where is the buzz in the market today?..300hp four stokes? Ultra light weight platforms? How about combined like Doo's new 1200? A polaris engineer was quoted in Snow Tech...and I have to paraphrase here because I can can't remember the full quote..." in as far as a 450 lb sled, WE ARE JUST NOT THERE YET."
Sounds like they should have been spending more on R&D...like the number one sled seller, SKI-doo.
I ride a 96 polaris ultra. Sure it is modified, but it runs with anything polaris makes now and is a lot less expensive and I did it in my garage. That is how pathetic polaris has become, when a poor rocket scientist like myself, can out build what polaris could not in 12 years.
In 2010 or 2011 I am buying an 09 XP. It might already be too late for polaris again. Even if they loss 50 lbs and generate some excitement in 2010. I would not buy because of their dismal first year sled reputation. (I learned with my ultra...)
Not only does polaris need to come up to speed they have to make double time for the next year or two before I buy.
Karl
When he took over polaris was number 1 in ATV and snowmobile sales. Now polaris is neither. Sure stock price went up...but so did the cost of my radius rods and water pump belts...back in 96 rods were 6 bucks now they are over 20 (over 300% inflation) belts went from 5 bucks to 41...Sure they added a plastic bag and instructions...but that is over 800% inflation in 10 yrs...These great ideas transformed many a polaris rider into a skidoo rider. Now take into account the DISMAL failure of the 900 RMK. I am absolutely certain it is a direct result of squeezing R&D and manufacturing with unrealistic schedules and resources. Polaris at one time had a fairly reasonable quality reputation. I believe they are the industy laughing stock...except for maybe Ski-doo. But clealy with the introduction of the Rev in 2005?, Doo is at least pushing technology and I would expect bugs. Polaris had really brought nothing to the table in a decade.
Polaris went from a company run by sports enthusiasts to a company run by bean counters. Now that is all good and well for light bulbs and toasters. But OHV and snowmobile sales are driven by excitement, innovation, and value. Lets face it. A-arms where pioneered by Cat years ago and the polaris chassis is still within a few pounds of the edge. I have no idea what they were thinking with the 900...it was even introduced too late for a carb version...
Where is the buzz in the market today?..300hp four stokes? Ultra light weight platforms? How about combined like Doo's new 1200? A polaris engineer was quoted in Snow Tech...and I have to paraphrase here because I can can't remember the full quote..." in as far as a 450 lb sled, WE ARE JUST NOT THERE YET."
Sounds like they should have been spending more on R&D...like the number one sled seller, SKI-doo.
I ride a 96 polaris ultra. Sure it is modified, but it runs with anything polaris makes now and is a lot less expensive and I did it in my garage. That is how pathetic polaris has become, when a poor rocket scientist like myself, can out build what polaris could not in 12 years.
In 2010 or 2011 I am buying an 09 XP. It might already be too late for polaris again. Even if they loss 50 lbs and generate some excitement in 2010. I would not buy because of their dismal first year sled reputation. (I learned with my ultra...)
Not only does polaris need to come up to speed they have to make double time for the next year or two before I buy.
Karl
Welcome to the forums... but you must be REALLY bored to have gone back 6 months to find this thread and resurrect it.
sled_guy
sled_guy
P
6 months? I had better take a shower and change my underpants...
Where are you guys getting your numbers for units sold/ and market share? We are axare that ski-doo is number 1 in sleds, and sea-doo is probably #1 in watercraft. But atv sales???
Ace
Ace
You are a few years out of date. Now it's Polaris building quality sleds & Doo is the king of junk. My 07 Summit-was the biggest POS ever made & now the 08 XP's set a new low for quality. The Ultra modded or not is not in the same league as the Edge chassis & an Edsel compared to the IQ. Not bashing your sled just being honest.
P
I think I am going to agree with everything you said based on what I think you are picturing in your mind.
I would have also agree that polaris dragons are a nice handling machine and perferform nicely. But in my on the snow experience tells me the 16 inch track and 50 lbs separates the XP substantially. I will not defend the XP in quality since they obviously had issues. But they are certainly solvable and the sled as a package generates more excitement. I think market share points in that direction also.
But let's take polaris' legacy into acount...XLT-weak crank, Ultra-head squish tolerance problems, list of recalls, RMK-700 good sled, but Tri-city designed it for them. Polaris came out west and saw the Rotax 670 in a rolled xlt (wedge) chassis. RMK 800...shiiiiit...2000 mile crank, enough said. Gen II-I think every agrees that was a step backwards. 900 rmk-so dismal they didn't even try to fix it and had to remodel their entire line up to compensate. Finally the D8...finally...
As for my ultra, I would agree, but my engine has 15000 miles. It averages 5000 miles before I freshen it up. Try that with an edge...but in your defense, my ultra has some edge parts and even ski-doo pistons. About the only thing stock is the bulk head and I cut holes in it when I rolled the chaincase. My 180 hp and 450 lbs runs with about anything on the snow unless you get really fancy and I was running it in 98.
I am not saying that polaris sucks...my heart is with polaris...I bleed polaris...but in the past decade there just has not been enough excitement generated to make me part with 10 grand...until recently...and that is my point. Sportsman excitement...not bean counter excitment....not Tom Tiller.
Karl
Actually the 700 was Jack Struther's brain child.
The XLT was the single most popular sled ever built. More XLTs were sold than any other sled model in history and in 93 more XLTs were sold than the other 3 OEMs combined sales.
The Ultra was horrible in stock tune, but was incredible with a set of pipes and a little tuning.
I forget what we were talking about now.
See my post from 6 months ago in this thread for my thoughts on Tiller.
sled_guy
The XLT was the single most popular sled ever built. More XLTs were sold than any other sled model in history and in 93 more XLTs were sold than the other 3 OEMs combined sales.
The Ultra was horrible in stock tune, but was incredible with a set of pipes and a little tuning.
I forget what we were talking about now.
See my post from 6 months ago in this thread for my thoughts on Tiller.
sled_guy
P
Actually the 700 was Jack Struther's brain child.
The XLT was the single most popular sled ever built. More XLTs were sold than any other sled model in history and in 93 more XLTs were sold than the other 3 OEMs combined sales.
The Ultra was horrible in stock tune, but was incredible with a set of pipes and a little tuning.
I forget what we were talking about now.
See my post from 6 months ago in this thread for my thoughts on Tiller.
sled_guy
Popular yes, reliable no. I still have a 95 on my back patio.
I also remember that Struthers was credited with alot of work developing the 700, but I also remember the "rotaris" the 670 in an indy chassis back when people were bolting plastic paddles on tracks. I am also relatively sure the first to do this is some unknown farmer in idaho and not who we think.
KARL
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