How I installed my BDX oil delete kit

bgreen776 · Jan 25, 2010

I pulled the engine, split the cases, and milled a few pockets with a 1/2" end mill to collect oil. Then drilled a 3/16" hole to direct oil onto the gear that drives the water pump shaft, and another to direct oil behind the bushing in the oil delete kit. You could do all this work with a die grinder and a hand drill. I'll let the pictures speak for themselves.

AaronBND · Jan 25, 2010

Not to bust any chops here, but I don't understand? What is this oil hole in the picture going to do, or did you drill through the oil delete too? That would make sense if you did I guess. Also, what happens to the fuel getting sent into that sealed cavity with the oil? The crank bearings seal that compartment from premix getting in or out. That's why guys grease the waterpump shaft through the zerk they put in the bottom.

Aaron

bgreen776 · Jan 25, 2010

More pictures here.

AaronBND · Jan 25, 2010

Ok, so it looks like you went through the oil delete piece too. That will work, but I still don't understand how the fuel gets burnt going into this cavity? Thanks for the pics.

Aaron

bgreen776 · Jan 25, 2010

The hole you circled goes through the lower case, through delete kit, into the cavity behind the oilite bushing. This receives oil slung off the crank gear. The crank gear receives oil from the hole drilled in the upper case.

bgreen776 · Jan 25, 2010

My take on it is that the oil/gas mixture will swirl around and exchange out through the bearings. There is no seal there. The snopro engines have a very similar port/drilling set up in the upper case to what I have done, but they dont have the hole through the bdx kit.

bgreen776 · Jan 25, 2010

Guys are greasing through the threaded hole in the bottom of the case, or are they greasing through the front of the delete kit, through a hole they drilled and tapped themselves? It doesn't make any sense to me to grease through the hole in the bottom of the case, but if it works, it works.

AaronBND · Jan 26, 2010

They are greasing through the hole in the bottom of the case right under the waterpump gear to lube the waterpump/crank gear teeth. Supposedly the oilite bushing in that BDX oil delete doesn't need oil. Here is a post from another thread:

Researching and putting a lot of thought into doing the BDX oil delete kit myself a few weeks ago, I honestly think you had trouble because we need to mix a stronger premix than BDX recommends. Maybe like 32:1 instead of 40:1. Looking at the pictures below of a M1000 case, you will see that the center section where the waterpump shaft is, is completely sealed off by the inner crank bearing seals. In the second picture, I also marked where the oil ports are on the outside of these seals in the case, to lube these inner crank bearings. You can also see in the second picture where these holes literally drop premix right into the bearings. In the second picture you can see where the seals ride in the case telling us that no premix can get in or out of that center section. This is why guys put the grease zerk in to lube the waterpump shaft. Honestly to me, it makes no sense at all drilling the cylinders to run premix down in this waterpump shaft section. How would the fuel part possibly get burnt? Engine heat evaporation? It sucks that it happened, but let it be a lesson to us guys that run it, to mix stronger than recommended.

bgreen776 · Jan 26, 2010

AaronBND said:
They are greasing through the hole in the bottom of the case right under the waterpump gear to lube the waterpump/crank gear teeth. Supposedly the oilite bushing in that BDX oil delete doesn't need oil. Here is a post from another thread:

Researching and putting a lot of thought into doing the BDX oil delete kit myself a few weeks ago, I honestly think you had trouble because we need to mix a stronger premix than BDX recommends. Maybe like 32:1 instead of 40:1. Looking at the pictures below of a M1000 case, you will see that the center section where the waterpump shaft is, is completely sealed off by the inner crank bearing seals. In the second picture, I also marked where the oil ports are on the outside of these seals in the case, to lube these inner crank bearings. You can also see in the second picture where these holes literally drop premix right into the bearings. In the second picture you can see where the seals ride in the case telling us that no premix can get in or out of that center section. This is why guys put the grease zerk in to lube the waterpump shaft. Honestly to me, it makes no sense at all drilling the cylinders to run premix down in this waterpump shaft section. How would the fuel part possibly get burnt? Engine heat evaporation? It sucks that it happened, but let it be a lesson to us guys that run it, to mix stronger than recommended.

The seals are a labrynth seal, they do allow for the trasfer of gas/oil to some degree. If those "seals" were an actual positive seal, then where would the oil thats injected into the cavity under the pump shaft go? The theory, as I see it, behind the milled cavity and the drilled hole is that lubrication will collect in the cavity, and the hole will create a pressure differential between the hole and the labby seal, causing gas/oil mixture to transfer.

There are many sleds out there with the bdx kit and no other modifications, that have many thousands of miles on them. Lube has got to be getting past the labbys, right? When I pulled my case apart, the cavity under the gear was just as clean as the rest of the case, indicating to me that there is some fuel going through there all the time.

AaronBND · Jan 26, 2010

There is another thread going on in this forum on the same subject.

http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=200116

Maybe get involved in that thread too. We need to get to the bottom of this to protect everyone running this setup. I blew up the picture up above in the other post and it does appear oil can get back and forth. If that is the case, than the grease alone would not be adequate enough I wouldn't think. Check it out and thanks for the pictures.

Aaron

HCM · Feb 26, 2011

Has any one had a failure with the Zerk in the bottom seen lots of comments on failures with out it but has any one lost the shaft with it. Thanks.

backcountryislife · Feb 26, 2011

HCM said:
Has any one had a failure with the Zerk in the bottom seen lots of comments on failures with out it but has any one lost the shaft with it. Thanks.

not that I've ever heard of.

I think drilling where bgreen did is wasteful, (my take) because even in the ones that HAVE failed, I've never heard of it failing there. From what I understand it fails at the back.

Also if you look at the cases, the lab bearings are pretty tight, but the cases around them aren't. There's a taper on the top 1/2 of the case that when put on top of the bearing, does not seal completely. The oil that was being pumped in there from the stock system NEEDS a way to get out, so obviously this is NOT a sealed area. (some seem to be tighter than others, but none can be COMPLETELY sealed or they'd pop the oil line eventually)

I put grease in at install because I believe that what is failing the few that we've heard about is the initial running after installing the delete dry, I believe it begins it's failure early on when it is run, before any premix can get in there. I feel the ones that didn't fail, are due to there being a bit more oil left in there at the time of install.

I've zerked 4 motors now 3 N/A 1000's & one boosted 8, and know of many more & never heard of a failure.

JasonAK · Feb 26, 2011

The chamber is not sealed. Otherwise when you take the oil line off 6+ ounces of oil or so would come running out.

When I installed the delete on mine I used a fluid syringe to put several ounces of oil in the chamber. Upon start up and for the first half of the day my sled smoked like a train. Proving the oil leaks out of the chamber.

Now that I have several rides of the sled. I plan to pull the bolt out of the bottom and see what comes out. This is to see if any pre-mix leaks into the chamber. I will report back what I find.

On a side note the two local dealer here have seen several water pump shaft failures on 2010-11 M8's. They have failed with the oil injection in place.

Jason

alexhack · Feb 26, 2011

When I installed the BDX kit some fuel came out of the cavity when I removed the bottom banjo bolt and line.

lasse · Mar 1, 2018

Problem doing a Oil Injection Delete....

AaronBND said:
I honestly think we need to mix a stronger premix to save the waterpump shaft.
Maybe like 32:1 instead of 40:1.
Looking at the pictures below of a M1000 case, you will see that the center section where the waterpump shaft is, is completely sealed off by the inner crank bearing seals.
In the second picture, I also marked where the oil ports are on the outside of these seals in the case, to lube these inner crank bearings. You can also see in the second picture where these holes literally drop premix right into the bearings. In the second picture you can see where the seals ride in the case telling us that no premix can get in or out of that center section.
Honestly to me, it makes no sense at all drilling the cylinders to run premix down in this waterpump shaft section.
How would the fuel part possibly get burnt ? Engine heat evaporation?

bgreen776 said:
The seals are a labrynth seal, they do allow for the trasfer of gas/oil to some degree.
If those "seals" were an actual positive seal, then where would the oil thats injected into the cavity under the pump shaft go?
The theory, as I see it, behind the milled cavity and the drilled hole is that lubrication will collect in the cavity, and the hole will create a pressure differential between the hole and the labby seal, causing gas/oil mixture to transfer.

Lube has got to be getting past the labbys, right ?
When I pulled my case apart, the cavity under the gear was just as clean as the rest of the case, indicating to me that there is some fuel going through there all the time.

backcountryislife said:
I think drilling the case is wasteful, (my take) because even in the ones that HAVE failed, I've never heard of it failing there.
From what I understand it fails at the back.

Also if you look at the cases, the lab bearings are pretty tight, but the cases around them aren't. There's a taper on the top 1/2 of the case that when put on top of the bearing, does not seal completely. The oil that was being pumped in there from the stock system NEEDS a way to get out, so obviously this is NOT a sealed area.
(some seem to be tighter than others, but none can be COMPLETELY sealed or they'd pop the oil line eventually)

JasonAK said:
The chamber is not sealed.
Otherwise when you take the oil line off 6+ ounces of oil or so would come running out.

When I deleted the Oil Injection system I used a fluid syringe to put several ounces of oil in the chamber.
Upon start up and for the first half of the day my sled smoked like a train.
Proving the oil leaks out of the chamber.

Now that I have several rides of the sled.
I plan to pull the bolt out of the bottom and see what comes out.
This is to see if any pre-mix leaks into the chamber.
I will report back what I find.

Can anyone help me out with some pictures of the middle crank seals and clarification ?

I'm NOT doing a BDX-delete !

I have done a Oil Injection delete/elimination on wife's Crossfire since the oil pump not working satisfactory.

But something does not seems to be ok.

I have filled the space where the water pump shaft is with oil and mounted a small oil reservoir instead of the large bulky one.
But as soon as I start the engine, It starts to consume oil from the oil reservoir and the level drops
and the engine smoke like crazy.

1. Is not the space where the water pump's shaft sits sealed against the crankcases ?
2. Or do the crank have a bad seal against the waterpump shaft space so the oil just leaks through ?

.

Thunder101 · Mar 1, 2018

I have done the delete on six on my sleds over the years ( all 800 Cats) couple of them big bores. Oil gets in there. Period. Don’t worry about all this other stuff.
I have to say I do like nice machine work but you made a trench right were the A/F mixture will flow from the reed block to the transfer tunnels, some of us take things apart just smooth that area out a touch . The unknown in what you have done is you added a very positive pressure exchange between cylinders basically effecting crank case compression. M2C

lasse · Mar 1, 2018

Thunder101 said:
I have done the delete on six on my sleds over the years ( all 800 Cats) couple of them big bores. Oil gets in there. Period. Don’t worry about all this other stuff.
I have to say I do like nice machine work but you made a trench right were the A/F mixture will flow from the reed block to the transfer tunnels, some of us take things apart just smooth that area out a touch.
The unknown in what you have done is you added a very positive pressure exchange between cylinders basically effecting crank case compression. M2C

Please explain more in detail what you mean ?

In my book there should not be any presure exchange through the crank seals whatsoever between the Left and Right crank case !
The crank seals should seal.

Thunder101 · Mar 1, 2018

FYI THE 1000 IS DIFFERENT

Well when you split the case on a Cat 800 laydown that has an oil delete already on it and you find red 2stroke oil in there you then know 100% the fuel/oil mixture is making it in there. No to mention the numeres people on here and HCS that have pumped grease in there or ran a drip reservoir and everyone of them are surprised the engine eats it all up.

and smokes like a pig.
Im trying to help not bash.

lasse · Mar 1, 2018

Thunder101 said:
Well when you split the case on a Arctic Cat with laydown engine that has an oil delete already on it and you find 2stroke oil in there you then know 100% the fuel/oil mixture is making it in there.
No to mention the numeres people on here and HCS that have pumped grease in there or ran a drip reservoir and everyone of them are surprised the engine eats it all up.
and smokes like a pig.
Im trying to help not bash.

Ok, but what should I do when I completely removing the oil pump and want to run the engine without it ?

Can you explain how these crankshaft seals work ?

How I installed my BDX oil delete kit

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